As the title says. Tiamat is quite powerful and I would wonder if anyone here can come up with a 4 person level 20 party that can beat her.
First off using that image of the starting wealth by level in a diffrent thread I will give each character 2 uncomon magic items and 1 rare magic item.
Your characters have 10 minutes to prep before they would fight Tiamat.
Can anyone think of a winning stratagy.
I do not have the list of available magical items available, but when I get my hands on it I will attempt your challenge. Just to lay everything out for easy-access:
-Party of 4
-Level 20
-2 uncommon, 1 rare
Are there any other requirements you ask?
I dont have her stats but I guess force cage one shots her just like it one shots everything else, no?
kalil wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Something like a party of Fighter 3 (battlemaster) Rogue 17 (assassin) with a teleport or gate scroll can easily wipe her out in the surprise round when they teleport in or gate her in.
If you don't want to go that route and if your DM doesn't play monsters like suicidal lemmings then the 120 movement could be a problem so you'll want a monk to keep proning her or some other way of stopping her from fleeing. If she is played like a suicidal lemming then pretty much any party of 4 should be able to kill her, although 4 barbarians might do it quickest.
If your DM doesn't make her bigger than 20x20 then force cage is basically an auto-win.
mellored wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Totem Barbarian (wolf and bear)
Vengence Paladin (Dragon)
Tempest Cleric (protection and healing spells)
Champion Fighter (two-weapon)
Everyones a Half-Orc.
FFSAA wrote:
Theros wrote:
1eejit wrote:
CCS wrote:
Open Hand Monk 17 (for the save-or-die) / Fighter 2 (for the Action Point); multi-attack until all his ki is used up.
The Barbarian / Paladin combo that has Resist (All but Psychic).
A Dragonborn and/or a Bard to draw her attention away from the rest of the group.
Somebody else to cast lots of Web and Entangle so she can't get away from the ground-pounders.
As with the Tarrasque thread, a way to burn through all her auto-saves.
I am relatively certain a party of battle master fighter, thief rogue, evoker wizard, and life domain cleric could get the job done, even without any feats or magical items.
Maybe one day I'll actually get my group together and roll that out for confirmation.
Sure, four wizards - nothing in the 'Verse can stop four Wish spells. Even if there are hard limits on what a Wish cannot change, those limits themselves are not on that list.
Bear Totem Barbarian 12/Rogue 8 (Evasion), Sentinel, possibly using Dodge action and using a shield. Maybe a vHuman to also have Shield Mastery.
Cleric to heal and pre-buff with Heroes' Feast as well as further buffing. War Cleric perhaps to use War God's Blessing on missing Sentinel Opp attacks. (You could even try Planar Ally or Gate, asking Bahamut to send a Solar or Empyrean ;) )
Two Sharpshooter Battlemasters for damage, using Distracting Strike prior to Tiamat taking her turn (so Sentinel Opp attack has advantage).
Saelorn wrote:
1eejit wrote:
kalil wrote:
Forcecage is 7th, but it still won't be big enough.
1eejit wrote:
Level 20 Cleric, Divine Intervention, ask for Bahamut's help?
Yeah otherwise 3 x Sharpshooting EK Level 20 Fighters, 1 x Level 20 Wizard.
Leomunds Tiny Hut + Archer Spam.
DaveDash wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
1eejit wrote:
4 wishes don't make a superwish any more than 4 fireballs make a nuke.
Saelorn wrote:
4 cleric lvl 20 worshipping a higher rankeing God then Tiamat. each using divine intervention, asking there god to come reimprison Tiamat back in the abyss. to duplicate teh spell Gate which allow you to summon a creature is you. If the creature is a powerfull entity like a god he can simply refuse, but honestly why would Bahamut refuse to send Tiamat back to the abyss? Why would any other warrior like Good align god refuse to send Tiamat back in the abyss in order to save the material plane?
Then the fight become 1 God VS 1 God and 4 cleric lvl 20
Divine Intervention doesn't necessarily work that way.
By my reading of it, it is the DM that decides the nature of the intervention, but the only suggested as appropriate examples are the effects of cleric spells.
That means imploring your deity to send Tiamat back to another plane of existence couldn't function like a gate spell because the spell says a god can just say "no gate happened" - though you could invite your deity to come do the work, which I as a DM would answer with the deity saying "I thought I was doing the work by sending you, my most potent of allies and most faithful of suplicants." or some other result that shows the deity is no longer pleased to have invested in the character.
1eejit wrote:
One high-level spellcaster to cast true polymorph, transforming her into a tarrasque.
Three 5th-level wizards to kite her...
There's no need for tricks. Tiamat is beatable the old fashioned way, melee damage and lots of it.
Saelorn wrote:
Is Tiamut stated? I would be very curious to see it if so.
Presumably a 20th level group could also benefit quite a bit from the epic advancement abilities in the DMG. If you factor several of those per pc in, suddenly the four 20th level characters are alot stronger.
Daydreamer80 wrote:
CCS wrote:
1eejit wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Daydreamer80 wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
CCS wrote:
Daydreamer80 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Which also falls under DM purview whether to allow at all or as intended...
dave2008 wrote:
Nature Cleric would probably be best, for Dampen Elements.
I still prefer mostly ranged damage with an up-close sentinel tank and mid-range cleric. That way most of the party won't take any damage, making it much easier to keep the melee barbarian alive.
dave2008 wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Huntsman57 wrote:
dave2008 wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
1eejit wrote:
1eejit wrote:
That's why I think it's important to give her lots of targets in melee range. Spread the pain around to keep healing to managable levels.
Even with her 30 hp regen a turn, i'd give her 4 rounds of constant attacks before she's done.
I'll assume breath weapons are doing half damage due to party spells / gear.
Her flying around is and isn't a problem. She's not getting her melee attacks so her damage drops quite a bit. The hard part will be having magical javelens / ranged attacks for the characters to use to pick away at her health.
Maybe use glue pots or something to gum up her wings?
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Only spells of level 7+ can really affect Tiamat - she's flat out immune to the rest. Coupled with her immunity to elements legendary resistance, and advantage on saves, she's pretty much shrugging off magic damage and laughs at Save Or Suck effects. Even meteor swarm will do an average of 35 damage to her.
Best option for a wizard or sorcerer is to focus on disintegrate cast as a high level spell, for 50 damage (assuming she saves). Or, yes, a fancy Wish. Land Druid can use the Sunbeam spell, or Shapechanging to be another martial character (best option probably) - moonshifted druids might have issue hitting her AC 25 with their shapes (they'd need a 15 or better with their best shape). Clerics can use their divine intervention power (the new Miracle spell). After that? Grab your mace or your heal sticks, ladies and gents. Warlocks... are kind of in trouble. They're either hexblades, or using a single Finger of Death and hoping to get off a Power Word. Or True Polymorph. Bards get to use anyone else's tactics, pretty much
To fight Tiamat, your best option is probably to involve as many martial characters as possible, be polymorphed somehow, or using Disintegrate. Save a Power Word if you can, and have some way of knowing when to use it (Battlemaster is love here).
Battlemaster. Raw combat damage, ahoy! Lots of uses for superiority dice (Tiamat attacks a lot, so riposte, or adding to AC, or anything really), Important to have battlemaster to know when to use that Power Word.
Bard casting Disintigrate, with a Power Word held up his sleave. Go Skald for that extra boost to giving out AC or damage, making an attack of their own with the spell fired off, or Healing Word.
Smite-happy Devout Paladin - as Tiamat is technically a fiend, he's under Protection from Good and Evil effect, meaning disadvantage on all attacks on him, plus his smites do more damage. Holy Nimbus and Sacred Weapon are likely more effective than Vow of Ennity and Soul of Vengence.
Sorcerer to cast more Disintegrate and holding back up Power Word spell, and Twin Haste on the Fighter and Paladin.
1eejit wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
I think wish disqualifies as a mean, since a thread like that has to get as much DM-neutrality and as much as hard facts as possible to really work. And since powerful wishes are very DM-dependent and works outside normal rules it's too hard to really be measured. Even though I think wish to weaken her (like in RoT) would be reasonable, like one wish per level of weakness.
For now I'm still stuck at some simple key-points, since 10min preparation time are too short for Heroe's Feast and the Magic Items outside the DMG (still waiting...) aren't too useful for this fight. If the option wishing her weaker is available: 4 scrolls of wish and debuff her as much as possible and bullying her with 4 20th level characters. Would be easy as pie! ;)
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Huntsman57 wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Interestingly enough, Mike Shea aka Sly Flourish ran a 20th level stress test against Tiamat early today; it was a TPK and he even forgot about Tiamat's regeneration.
Mephi1234 wrote:
Shroomy wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
My party would be four Wood Elf level 20 Eldritch Knights with Blink, Fire Shield, Protection from Energy, Mobility, Sharpshooter, and Longbows. You can protect yourself from two breaths more or less and with good blink rolls you can stay out of trouble.
Spread out and stay as far away as possible.
Edit: If her being immune to 6th level spells or lower means she ignores those spells, then probably use Battlemasters instead. Or Barb/Rogues all with evasion.
MurdochMan wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
From the contest, thought it very apropos:
Mephi1234 wrote:
Simulacron spam always works.
Kentus wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Akodo_Akira wrote:
1eejit wrote:
BRJN wrote:
mellored wrote:
Akodo_Akira wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
Got it. First we will make the following assumptions:
1.) Whiteroom as a battle-field and Tiamat is interested in having melee battles, instead of flaming everyone from afar
2.) Tiamat will kill every turn one adventurer, but I can decide the order
3.) The positioning is in a way, that she can't nuke more than one with any odem, so multiple kills are not possible
4.) Tiamat lost initiative (multiple ways to ensure it, like using left over feats)
5.) Instead of making rolls, I deal average damage with each attack (accuracy is included in this)
Party:
Fighter 20th level, Greatsword +3; Champion. STR 20
Paladin 20th level, Greatsword +3; Oath of Devotion, used preperation to give his +5 CHA to hit; STR 20; used Holy Nimbus directly before the fight, Great Weapon Fighting
Ranger 20th level Longbow +3; Hunter with Colossus Slayer, Favored Enemy fiend; DEX 20 and Sharpshooter; Cast Swift Quiver and Hunter's Quarry Beforehand, Archery Style
Sorcerer 20th level, CHA 20
No DMG, but everyone should have an anti-fear item, which still might be possible within the allowed magic items (and be it per spell scroll)
Since making these characters more concrete would raise their chances of success, there is a bit of leeway.
Turn One
Fighter makes Action Surge, deals 68,4 damage in 8 attacks
Paladin use Banishing Smite + 4th level smite, deals 92,9 damage in two attacks (both smited, but only one with Banashing Smite)
Ranger deals 75,41 in four attacks (using Capstone to raise accuracy if needed of damahe if possible, netting more attacks even while Sniping)
Sorcerer cast Quickened Sunburst, use action to use it the same turn, dealing 16,8 damage
Tiamat gains 253,51 damage, heals 30 at the start and loses 10 due holy nimbus. Rest: 391,49. Fighter dies.
Turn Two
Paladin does two attack again, one with Banashing Smite and both with Divine Smite, even though for the second I only have a 3rd spell slot left. Deals 88,4 damage.
Ranger deals 75,41 in four attacks
Sorcerer cast Quickened Finger of Death and use the action to use Sun Beam again, deals 51,05 damage.
Tiamat gains 214,86 damage, heals 30 at the start and loses 10, rest 196,63. Paladin dies, time to take care of the ranged ones.
Turn three
Ranger deals 75,41 in four attacks
Sorcerer cast Quickened Finger of Death and use the action to use Sun Beam again, deals 51,05 damage.
Tiamat gains 126,46 damage, heals 30 at the start and have 100,16 lfeft. Ranger dies.
Turn four
Sorcerer uses action for Sunburst (dealing 16,8 damage) for safety and cast Quickened Power Word Dead!
Tiamat 'dies' as in Discorporation. And is pretty pissed. Don't underestimate an Arcane Caster!
Of course this is only math and doesn't incorporate the idea, that a decent DM won't make it an easy kill. But after searching for some crossreferences and the ability of Power Word Kill (which makes it so much easier, since there are 100 HPs less to worry about) and giving 2 sweet tanks there, to get attacked relentlessly by her and at least can endure enough punishment (due Hit Points, AC, Disadvantage per Protection from Good and Evil, Other buffs) to actually hold that long.
Was only a quick and dirty method, using burst damage and some simple basic stuff. And the readiness to sacrifice party members. And of course some rounds preperation time, which greatly enhances the damage.
Would a party actually defeat her under real cirumstances? Would be interesting. Would this party beat her, if she got maxed out HP? HAHAHAHAHAHA, no ;P
Even with rolling I get the bad feeling, that it won't get as smooth as the math suggest. Since you can count criticals in average damage values, but you can't count on them. ^^'
EDIT: Edited it after realizing, that the Paladin Damage was set too high, making it possible winning this by turn 3. Now fixed.