This isn't a thread merely for very strong spells that are obviously working as intended, like Sleep, Meteor Swarm or Power Word Kill. These are spells that are obviously win buttons, even beyond other quality spells, and are pretty obviously the way they are because of developer oversight.
A similar discussion is going on at Enworld. Figured I'd amplify it here, because these spells clearly upset what is otherwise pretty solid systemic balance.
1) Contagion: No-save stun for at least three rounds, all you have to do is succeed on a touch attack and do at least one point of damage each round. Much stronger than 8th-level Power Word Stun, which gives the enemy a chance to save every round.
Possible fixes: If you make a save, the disease effects are suspended for that round.
2) Wall of Force: Drop a dome on enemies, and if they can't either teleport in some way or cast Disintegrate, they're trapped and they're screwed. All a Wizard needs to do after is pummel them all with spells until they all die.
Possible fixes: Allow a DEX save to run out of the way of the wall as a reaction (similar to Wall of Stone), and also allow Strength checks to break out of the Wall of Force.
3) Forcecage: Similar in brokenness to Wall of Force, and likewise inescapable. Can't cast spells into it like you can with Wall of Force, but this one doesn't require Concentration, making it a deadly combo with Cloudkill.
Possible fixes: Similar to Wall of Force, DEX save to run out of the way as a reaction, as well as a STR check to break out.
4) Polymorph: Mapping level = CR at a 1:1 ratio is WAAAAAAAAAY too strong. It's 3 times stronger than a Moon Druid's Wild Shape, for crying out loud. One character should not be able to change into a monster that's built to fight an entire party, and it definitely should not be stronger than a Moon Druid's very reason for existing.
Possible fixes: Needs to read "the target's level divided by 3, if it doesn't have a challenge rating."
5) True Polymorph: Just like Polymorph except it can be made permanent. Enworld thread gives the example of literally making the entire party adult dragons before a big fight. So stupid.
Possible fixes: As with polymorph, needs to be level/3 if the creature has no challenge rating.
What would you add, and why, and what would be your proposed possible fixes?
I fully support attacks to break through a wall of force and force cage; I suppose you could say "magic weapons only", but I wouldn't make that distinction.
I'm down with your polymorph and contagion fixes.
Um...Walls of force are equally impenetrable from the outside.... It is not a wall of one-way force (which lets things pass through one side, but not the other). It is a wall of force. How pray tell is your wizard going to harm the creature you just gave an impenetrable shield to?
About the only thing which might work (subject to DM interpretation), are mind affecting spells, or spells which somehow originate within the dome itself. Fireball won't cut it. Nor would meteor swarm, disintergrate, or finger of death.... Well Disintergrate might work, but it would disintergrate the WoF first.
Offensive polymorph will be strong too. Polymorph that dragon into a giant shark, kiss 126hp goodbye.
Kalani wrote:
1eejit wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Spells are as broken as the DMs allow them to be. Even the Glyph of Warding can be broken as hell if the players decide to use their down time to make a bunch of them. Imagine a whole party of players with magical grenades , some even contain spells.
GladiusLegis wrote:
MightyZehir wrote:
Dane_McArdy wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
1eejit wrote:
True Polymorph is *the* save or die against solos IMO. Or more specifically "Save or Brick". Provided you can concentrate on it for an hour.
I'm not sure Polymorph is as bad as it seems - yes a single CR X creature is a suitable challenge for a Level X party, but that doesn't mean that it is four or five times as powerful as a level X PC, it means that a party of level X PCs are expected to be able to kill it with reasonable expenditure of resources. I'd argue that this makes a CR X creature *about as powerful* as a level X PC.
Wild Shape is a little bit different (especially at max level, where a druid can use it at will). A 20th level Moon Druid would be indestructible if they could keep wildshaping into fully healed, CR-appropriate creatures. And a Druid can cast spells in wildshape at mid-high levels.
I'd agree with those who say Wall of Force should block spellcasting.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Dane_McArdy wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
But can you build a house out of your defeated foes with Hold Monster? :P
More seriously, hold monster requires some party investment. True Polymorph just requires 1 hour of concentration. Which can vary in how much of a resource that is.
mellored wrote:
If I was in a group and a Wizard wanted to permanently polymorph me into anything, I would not be to receptive.
As a DM, I would not allow a caster polymorphed into a dragon to cast spells.
I used aminate object in a recent lvl 9 game and some of the other players thik it must be added to this list
edwin_su wrote:
Legendary Resistance is a pretty hard counter to many save-or-die spells.
Not all creatures are going to have it, but the Big Bad almost certainly will -- meaning that you'll probably need to throw 5 or 6 save-or-lose/die spells at a big bad before you can actually get one through.
Even for a party of four casters it's difficult to say whether you'd be better trying to get a save-or-lose to stick or just hammering the big bad with Meteor Swarms. Especially since most big meaty foes have rather poor Dexterity saving throw values (though they alsot tend to have fire resistance too...)
GladiusLegis wrote:
AH_schulerta wrote:
I'd just make it "other" Constitution Saves for Contagion.
Arithezoo wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
One of these days... ONE OF THESE DAYS... I'll understand why people are in an ongoing effort to nerf magic.
It's magic. It's meant to break the rules. It's meant to be powerful. It comes at a cost. It's a limited resource, unlike a weapon-based character, who can keep swinging that weapon until they're unconscious or dead at 0 hit points.
Let magic be magic.
This all started with the unnecessary nerf to Haste from 3.0 to 3.5, and it just hasn't stopped since.
People seem bound and determined to make spellcasters as un-fun to play as possible. 
Eldren73 wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
Wouldn't work, TP specifically states they keep their alignment and personality. Although nothing stops you from having their personality shift of course.
MightyZehir wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Kalani wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
MightyZehir wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
mellored wrote:
Eldren73, your series of rants is classic snowball fallacy. Nobody is suggesting nerfing magic in general in this game. It's a handful of spells. That's it. Your rants are off-topic and add nothing to the discussion, and I would appreciate it if you stopped posting in this thread unless you have something to contribute.
Dane_McArdy wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Dane_McArdy wrote:
Vikingkingq wrote:
mellored wrote:
I don't see what's so great about being a dragon. Maybe if your fighting an ice queen in her flying ice castle and everyone wants fire breath sure, but otherwise, i'd rather the warlock keep his 4d10+20 at-will damage, the paladin his saving throw boosting aura, and the assassin his opening crits.
Using polymorph for the bucket load of hit points, then automaticly converting back with only a scratch? That's probably OP.
Eldren73 wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
eleran wrote:
Centauri wrote:
mellored wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
What is this "touch attack" people keep mentioning? I don't see any mechanic for that in 5e.
These spells require a melee attack. Let's call them what they are so as not to color the discussion with mechanics from a previous version.
autolycus wrote:
Contagion is pretty silly.
Just requires a melee hit, no save to keep the effect from happening(just saves to end the effect later, requires at minimum 3 saves).
Can impose disadvantage on the save needed to end it.
Dealing any damage at all to the target for at least the next 3 turns keeps it stunlocked. Again, no save allowed to stop this effect.
And while not broken, I find it hilarious that Bards are better smiters than Paladins, considering they can get the better smites far earlier.
Karnos wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
EnglishLanguage wrote:
Just the fact that there's even a basis for this kind of conversation is a depressing statement about 5e. Hey, there was poorly considered stuff in 4th Edition, but at least it was spread around rather evenly. There weren't just a few classes with monster-lock-down options. That's a problem for encounter design, of course, but at least the classes were relatively balanced by default. Now we're back to not just dealing with broken stuff, but broken stuff doled out to just some of the classes who then require special GM attention to rein them in. Fantastic.
Noting that it's "a handful of spells" need nerfing feeds into the grander problem of people, over time from 3rd onward, wanting to continuously seek official nerfs (in the form of "balance adjustments" so they don't merely appear like they're complaining for complaint's sake) instead of just figuring out ways to work with the system presented by designers who, ostensibly, did all the footwork in figuring out balance to begin with. It isn't to say they're incapable of mistakes, but I'm inclined to lean on their design results and expertise more than a subsection of players who may or may not be professional game designers, and are often just trying to find official support for a game at a power level they're personally comfortable with. It's better the province of house rules in those kinds of scenarios.
Dane_McArdy wrote:
Vikingkingq wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Yunru wrote:
autolycus wrote:
Overpromises wrote:
No you said that touch attacks don't exist then accuse everyone in this thread of " color[ing] the discussion with mechanics from a previous version."
When in fact, it's your ignorance of Touch attacks existing as a thing in 5e. Hence the "Duh". Because it's obvious to anyone who reads/searches the rules.
In 5e a touch attack can be an auto-hit, a save spell or an attack roll. By saying they're just melee attacks you're spreading false information, which is reprehensible.
Arcane Lock is relevent because it's a clear example of how you're wrong: It's a Touch spell that isn't "just a melee attack".
In short: It's you assuming that we're all wrong because you couldn't find something that I take issue with.
Yunru wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Please. It's *you* who assumes when we talk of a Touch attack, we mean a Touch Attack, not an attack with range: touch.
Yunru wrote:
autolycus wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Yunru wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
MightyZehir wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
woif wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
mellored wrote:
So it sure seems like there were good replies to every single one of these complaints.
1) Contagion: - OP failed to mention it requires successful melee spell attack (and of course follow-up damaging attacks each round to maintain the stun, which goes away likely after the third round).
2) Wall of Force: - OP mistakenly thought you can attack foes in the sphere. You can't attack them, as much as they can't attack you. It breaks line of effect.
3) Forcecage: Same as Wall of force, you can't attack them.
4) Polymorph: OP mistakenly thinks CR represents a foe able to fight the entire party - it does not mean that, it means roughly a foe able to fight one person, and examples in this thread demonstrate it's really slightly less powerful than not doing it.
5) True Polymorph: OP mistakenly left out casting times, and impact of the spell physically changing your mind to be the thing you changed into, like changing your mind into that of a red dragon.
These are significant draw-backs and mistakes that are relevant. None of these spells looks broken to me.
Mistwell wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
@ Eldren73, at this point you are resorting to pure intellectual dishonesty, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time with your basic self.
Centauri wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Karnos wrote:
So..
Contagion: A bit strong for it's level, but not that much more powerful then hold monster.
Force: Broken. As long as you have more range then the enemy, you win.
Polymorph: OP due to gaining a full creatures worth of HP.
True Polymorph: Not OP, since you loose all your class features.
Leomunds Tiny Invulnerable Fortress: Potentially broken.
Glyph of Spell Stacking: Potentially broken.
I don't have the PHB yet, so I might be missing something, but with regards to Polymorph/True Polymorph, is it the case that the creature you turn into is limited to an equal or lower Challenge Rating as the creature you start off with? If that's the case, then remember that a CR X monster, for example, is equal to *4 level X characters*. It would follow that if you want to turn a level X character into an equal CR solo creature, you are limited to CR (X/4) creatures. That would mean that at level 20, you can turn into CR 5 creatures. Or, in other words, if you wanted to turn into a CR 16 adult dragon, you'd need to be level 48.
I don't think the "turn your party into dragons" exploit works, by RAW.
Being a freakin' dragon > Any class feature you care to name (except Spellcasting, but that's why we are where we are in the first place)
Centauri wrote:
vacthok wrote:
mellored wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Looking at these spells, it becomes critically important to have countermeasures:
- Lesser Restoration or other similar spells can be used as a counter to Contagion.
- Disintegrate can be used as a counter to Forcecage.
- Dispel Magic can be used as a counter to Polymorph (even true polymorph after an hour concentrating is permanent rather than instantaneous).
Polymorph is not hugely overpowered (possibly somewhat at some levels due to mismatches between CR and equivalent level). Rather, Wild Shape is iffy in combat without Beast Spells, but cannot be removed by Dispel Magic.
vacthok wrote:
Overpromises wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
vacthok wrote:
Okay =). That's the broken part then!
And actually, I think the brokenness with the dragon scenario comes mostly from giving the polymorphed PC access to Legendary Actions. Without those, as others have pointed out, it's a more "even" trade considering you are giving up class abilities/spellcasting/etc. The legendary actions, though, represent a significant power bump (since that is what they are designed to do). Perhaps a house rule to restrict access to Legendary monsters and/or Legendary actions when Polymorphing?
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
mellored wrote:
Re: Wall of Force
Easily refuted, using its higher-level cousin Forcecage.
The box version of Forcecage specifies that no spells can pass through it. Has to specify it. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, same thing. That's evidence that things don't block spells unless they say they do.
Wall of Force does not specify that, which is solid evidence that yes, indeed, you can cast spells through the Wall of Force.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
But even assuming that Wall of Force does block stuff like Fireball and Ray of Frost — fine, I can see that argument since those are things that you hurl or you shoot from you — there's also spells like Chill Touch, which create the harmful effect right in the creature's space, and other spells whose effects start at the point of origin you select (e.g. Cloudkill, Flamestrike, Ice Storm). It's reasonable to assume Wall of Force does not block those.
awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
Under the rules for Cover in the Basic PHB, it says that a creature has total cover if it is "completely concealed by an obstacle." Furthermore, under the Target subsection of the Spells rules, it states that "to target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover" and that "if you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the wall."
Following those two rules, I think it comes down to how the DM interprets an "obstacle" or an "obstruction." In the case where you can't see the point or creature you are targeting, it seems clear that you can't target any effect inside the obstructions. In the case where you *can* see the point or creature, then the DM could rule that "line of effect" (to borrow the term... I know it is not a 5e term, but it describes a useful concept) depends on either sightline path or a physical path. I think a good thought experiment for these cases would be what if you ran into a creature inside a house made of transparent, mundane glass? Does the creature have total cover? From arrows? From spells? From both?
Whatever the case, I think it is clear that unless explicitly said otherwise, any "line of effect" should work in both directions. Anything that you can do to the creature inside the cage/wall/whatever, it should be able to do right back to you (provided it is capable of doing so, ofc).
GladiusLegis wrote:
vacthok wrote:
Sorry I'm late to this discussion.
my 2 cp:
Magic users as a whole were underpowered, then fine, then over powered as they leveled up in 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e. That was just bad design, sacred cows, no respect for balance in a game, and such.
4e (and to a much lesser extent, PF) fixed that. 5e seems to have mostly kept it fixed too. If anything actually comes up in my group, I'll just deal with it. I have no problem nerfing spells if they prove too powerful. I don't want casters to be less cool, I want weapon-users to be more cool, LOL.
Over powered spells only become an issue if a selfish player abuses loopholes. No one I play with does that, so I really don't care. I don't do it when I DM, either. Even with some big bad end of campaign boss like a 5e Lich. I want my PC's to win. It's not a me against them game. Sure, I don't make it easy, but I'd never purposefully screw my PC's over with impossible to win situations, TPKs, obscure puzzles only I can solve (because I have the solution already), etc.
It's not just wizards. Clerics, bards, sorcerers, druids, and warlocks might have balance and loophole-abusing issues too. It'd take a lot of playing and studying to uncover it all. Even then, an issue or abuse might be table-specific and not a 5e-wide problem. One thing I know for sure though; rogues, rangers, fighters, monks, barbarians, and paladins aren't in danger of breaking encounters or whole campaigns with their abilities.
As a DM, if my players ever started abusing wall of force (ie. using it to trivialize any non-magical threat), I'd probably rule that each time spell energy crosses the wall (and for these purposes, picking a point inside the wall counts as sending energy through the wall), I'd make a roll against a DC 8 + the spell's level, and on a failed roll say that the arcane energies interfered with one another and caused the wall to dissapate.
Or rule that on a failed check, the spell fizzles. Or that a failed check causes an arcane feedback that damages the caster for 1d8.
It'd depend on how much the players are cheesing the system, I guess.
GladiusLegis wrote:
EnglishLanguage wrote:
Kalani wrote:
@seti your post made my day better kkkkkkkkkkk
Eldren73 wrote:
DLfan wrote:
Vikingkingq wrote:
Lady_Auralla wrote:
DLfan wrote:
Mecheon wrote:
DLfan wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Lady_Auralla wrote:
Fixes:
Contagion: Slimy doom is vulnerable to physical damage.
Wall of Force: Blocks spells, has 100 hit points, immune to force damage. +25 HP for each additional spell level
Force Cage: Blocks spells that don't go though bars, and 200 hit points, immune to force damage. +50 HP fro each additional spell level.
Polymorph: All damage taken carries over. You can die when reverting back.
True Polymorph: All damage taken carries over. You can die when reverting back.
mellored wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
1eejit wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
In relation to the arguments about specific prohibition in spell description, it isn't unreasonable to conclude that where no specific prohibition exists, Rule Zero takes over. I realize it provides across-the-board inconsistency (which ultimately shouldn't matter, as a very solid 99% of the participants in these forums are not going to play with each other at the same table), as opposed to the "we have a rule for everything" approach of 3rd Edition or the "all powers are ultimately equal in capability at all times" approach of 4th Edition.
The wording of True Polymorph as Nimrod just quoted seems pretty straightforward: if you use it to change into a dragon, you gain all the dragon's game statistics, retaining only your own alignment and personality. This would seem to include any Legendary or Lair abilities said dragon gets. A Dungeon Master could decide that's too much power for a player to have from a single spell, but then you start entering into the territory of the most-argued spell in all of D&D history: Wish. At the end of the day, a player can do whatever their Dungeon Master lets them do.
As for Wall of Force... I think some general common sense would apply with it: you wanna throw a Fireball through it? Nope. You wanna cast Charm Person through it? Yep. You wanna dump Cloudkill in the area, and then put Wall of Force up around it? Have at it. They can't move out of the deadly cloud unless they can somehow bypass the Wall of Force.
Which typically requires something like teleportation or Disintegrate. Thing is, most spellcasters, in the name of generally intelligent strategy, don't just try to pin down another spellcaster. They usually try to remove their spellcasting ability or otherwise neutralize them. Spellcasters are rarely limited by mere space. :P
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
NimrodVanHall wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
mellored wrote:
ME: @mikemearls question from the forums: Can you cast spells through a Force Cage? How about through a Wall of Force? I'd say no but it's vague
MIKE: @spelley nope, blocks it. in general, if something blocks physical objects it also blocks spells.
spelley wrote:
I tweeted Mike Mearls about Wall of Force since the OPs thinking is #crazyforcocoapuffs.
-
@mikemearls Is there a line of effect in D&D and does Wall of Force block it?
Eldren73 wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
mellored wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Bottom line is that "common sense" has no bearing on RAW. Any application of "common sense" on an ambiguous rule or spell description heads into RAI and Rule Zero territory, but arguing that is the DM's job and not the job of those who write the rules is just plain and simple Oberoni Fallacy.
GladiusLegis wrote:
Or, the design goal is emergent gameplay.
Table 1 will decide the spell or interaction works one way, which is what the designers were thinking.
Table 2 will decide it works another way, completely differently from what the designers were thinking.
Both tables are right.
DemoMonkey wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Good pun, bro.
Centauri wrote:
spelley wrote:
Instead of reading spells in the most powerful way possible, wizard players could try what fighter players are forced to do: assume that stark mundanity takes precedence, and if you want to do something awesome, ask your GM for permission. Hey, that's expected to be fun for fighter players, so why wouldn't it be fun for wizard players? You trust your GM, right? If not, you must have a very unstable table dynamic.
Centauri wrote:
I'm AFB at the moment, but as I understand it, the druid's wild shape class feature acts as a hit point buffer, but polymorph / true polymorph do not (at least, I don't remember the same language appearing in those spell descriptions). So if you get reduced to 0 HP or killed while Polymorphed, you revert to your normal form, and you're still at 0 HP or dead, as appropriate. Thus, you can True Polymorph a dragon into a slug and step on it, and the dragon stays dead rather than just losing a handful of HP. This would make True Polymorph the level 9 offensive spell it meant to be, and prevent either polymorph spell from being a glorified hit point buffer.
Can somoene with access to the PHB confirm / deny? I could be remembering wrong.
Also, good luck killing a 20th level druid with unlimited wild shapes per day!
Amerikajin wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Why don't we just acknowlage there is a disparity between the writing and intent.
mellored wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Centauri wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Amerikajin wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Kalani wrote:
ITT:
dispute over something obvious
get definitive response from Mearls
ignore Mearles because cynicism resembles intelligence
continue pissing into the wind
That's you guys. That's what you're like.
.
DLfan wrote:
mellored wrote:
Centauri wrote:
yakuba wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Maybe Polymorph effects are just very difficult to balance due to their nature, and writing it "properly" to handle all side cases would require a second PHB: Polymorph Handbook.
Centauri wrote:
Vikingkingq wrote:
Centauri wrote:
DLfan wrote:
yakuba wrote:
IMO, the necessary fixes:
Contagion: No granting disadvantage to its own save, and successful saves suspend the effect.
Reasoning: The disadvantage to own save just makes it mathematically ridiculous for most creatures. It also makes one usage of a multi-use spell the vastly superior option, which is boring. The 'saves suspend' thing is necessary to preserve what is essentially uniform across all other spells: you get a save to end the effects. Contagion is still special in that you have to pass multiple saves over time, but it's no longer an automagic 3-round duration. That's nearly the duration of a combat, and it's silly. I know some people are in the 'lol its fine if the caster kills the BBEG with one spell, its MAGIC, why should the fighter contribute' camp, but that's not the game design of the edition and this spell singularly ignores that design in a glaring way for no obvious reason (why is contagion, a 5th level necromancy spell, a better save-or-die effect than finger of death, a 7th level necromancy spell?). If you want easy, no-setup, save or die cheese, please go play 3.5 or earier.
Polymorph: Scale the achievable level by spell slot (4th = CR 3 or less, +1 CR/spell slot level), and include the druid's text restricting lair and legendary abilities.
Reasoning; The spell's scaling is totally beyond the magnitude of any other effect. Changing it to scale by spell slot is in line with other spells, and the range of levels actually still works out to be a little faster than druids (because its a resource ability) but not blow them out of the water. Without this reduced scaling, the hitpoints you get grossly outpace even fighter or barbarian hp or cleric healing, and the access to relatively high level monsters of unlimited class is just unreasonable. Look at the Hydra at level 10, and imagine that supported by player healing (and before people bring up Concentration checks, you can cast it on a different party member and retain your own War Caster feat while hiding in the back line).
Force Spells: Give them HP (or possibly make them breakable with very high strength check DCs).
Reasoning: Otherwise they're just a simplistic counter to non spellcasters and that's dull. They can be very resillient, but making them unbreakable is too much of a 'magic wins, everyone else drools' situation.
My feelings are actually mixed on things like True Polymorph. I feel that falls into something of a category like wish, in that it's clearly overpowered, but in a way that is handled narratively more than via rules balance.
None of these are problems with a reasonable DM and a reasonable social contract.
If you don't have these, you have larger problems than a few spells and what are you doing at that table?
autolycus wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
danyc wrote:
autolycus wrote:
autolycus wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
autolycus wrote:
MightyZehir wrote:
MightyZehir wrote:
Edited: Stupid post that contributed nothing to the conversation.
Azzy1974 wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
yakuba wrote:
Centauri wrote:
danyc wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Contagion create a NORMAL NATURAL diseases so a paladin lvl 1 with lay on hand can cure the desease spending 5 HP from it's LoH. all the creature that are immune to disease are immune to this spell, (warforged from the playtest was immune to disease) Monk lvl 10 are immune to disease, paladin lvl 3 are immunte to disease, a land circle druid lvl 10 is immune to disease, Lesser restoration (spell lvl 2) can cure it.
So a spell lvl 5, require 9 level in Cleric or Druid (multiclass will get it later) and build to be able to go in melee range against the big bad scary monster is countered by:
-2 class lvl 10 is immune to it,
-1 class is immune at level 3
-a level 1 ability able to cure it
-a spell lvl 2 that bard, cleric, druid can learn at level 3; Paladin and ranger can learn it at level 5. and is part of the domain list for life cleric and Devotion paladin
Then it's still a spell so wizard, sorcerer, warlock, EK and AT can also dispel magic it (within 7 days) or counterspell it.
the big legendary/solo monster who might not have access to class level or spells, have legendary resistance and will probably have some immunities. and or could have a support character (a cleric lvl 3) to support heal and heal him from diseases
and I'm sure we'll get some magical item that will offer disease immunity. So what is the big deal?
True polymorph, take 10 downtime day to transform your party into gold dragon, then send them in the underdark, passing in tunnel just big enought for large creature (dragon are huge right?
and remember a the CR of a monster is suppose to be an adequate challenge to a party of the same level. This mean your party will have to use ressources to defeat him, your spellcaster will ahve to use some high level spell, he cannot just use cantrip, the fighter might have to use second wind or action surge or some maneuver to defeat it, not just basic attack, but they are not required to use all there ressource (the spellcaster will still have more high level spell, the fighter will still ahve maneuvers/actions urge available) the monster will cause some HP damage, but shouldn't be able to kill anyone (HP is a ressource). Just for fun, make a fighter lvl X fight an other fighter lvl X and Im sure they will spend more ressource during that fight, then a fighter against a creature with a CR equal to the fighter level (choose a creature with similar power to a fighter, like a minotaur or something like that, we are not looking at weakness or speciality)
and even if you transform the fighter into a minotaur so he gain a massive boost to strenght (I didnt saw monster stat yet, so let' sassume it coul dbe a good idea), well when you go back in town, you need to convince the inn keeper to let a minotaur stay in his establishement? when you go meet the king to receive your next mission, you need to convince the guard to let a minotaur pass. I mena we are talking about a world where even if Drow, tiefliing and half orc did there proof and show that they can be good align (therefor are in the PHB) they are still stigmatize for there race. and now you want to transform a player in a race that is not even in the PHB, who will be even rarer in town then drow/teifling*half orc? Remember the DnD world is EXTREMLY racist, where monster get killed on SIGHT, you see goblin, very few will say, let's go talk to them see what they are doing, no you cast fireball from 150ft away and look at them burn, even if they were not doing mischief at this moment. so what will happen when the guard of a town will see a minotaur following the party? even worse, what will happen when the town guard see an group on monster approaching? they will attack on sight, sound the alarm, and now your party need defeat the town, without killing them or they will becoem evil (the town is still good, they are just doing what any good guard should do, kill monster approaching there town.
Yes in a white room, true polymorph is super powerfull, but in the game, if you polymoprh in a creature bigger then medium, well most adventure are written for medium size player so you might not be able to go further. If your polymorph permanently into a monster, youneed to deal with all the racism of the world against that monster. yes in combat your unstopable, but outside of combat it might be harder to do something.
Centauri wrote:
Sorxores wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Forgive me if this has been said in the seven pages of discussion. Since there are no rules for playing a monster as a PC doesn't it take DM fiat to maintain control of your PC once you've permanently become a monster? If it does isn't that and the need for concentration when used in combat the balancing factor on True Polymorph?
Krux wrote:
If the main concern here is that a 9th level spell may be too powerful then I think 5e got things right.
Centauri wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Sorxores wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
danyc wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
True Polymorph in my opionion is not broken. Doing it to another creature that said creature gets a save. Legendary creatures will shrug off the spell like a horse swats flies with its tail. You get one shot with it. Plus to make it permanent you need to hold concentration for an hour or the spell breaks. If you do this in combat against another legendary or high CR monster then good luck holding this spell on for long. After said hour the spell becomes permanent. If a player character wishes to give up 17 levels they just worked up to to become a Dragon go ahead. Good luck doing anything worth while except change the nature of the campaign (which could lead to some very interesting things). I mean Clerics at this level can bring dudes 200 years old from death back completely as if nothing ever happend to them or Gate to another plane and suck any creature they want there and heal 700 HP with a wave of their hands. Sounds about right for a Wizard to try and alter a creature. Good luck with that save though.
Eldren73 wrote:
Not neccesarily something broken, but a humurous rules quirk that lets you possess the BBEG with a horse.
First, the Find Steed spell. Lets you summon a spirit in the shape of a mount that's "unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal." It gets INT 6 if the form it's absed on had less, and the important part....
"While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you, you also target your steed."
Now the second half is Magic Jar. If you recall that's the spell that lets you put your soul in a jar and possess other people with it. The important part HERE.
"Range: Self"
So target yourself and you spirit horse, souls get sucked into the ajr, you hop abck to your own body, bring the jar to the BBEG and bam, the horse is in his body now.
Of course he has to fail the save, but it's still funny.
Eldren73 wrote:
mellored wrote:
Krux wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Orethalion (I do like Ore, and Thalion,Tolkien), you are rocking the shite in this one, seriously, you are like the wind instrument to my voice.
Azzy1974 wrote:
Eldren73 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
LordVonDerp wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Centauri wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
@Centauri: What kind of balance issues are you having? I wouldn't mind if you could give us a few examples (or post numbers if you already have).
mellored wrote:
Centauri wrote:
mellored wrote:
I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, but wall of force provides total cover, and you can't target spells through total cover. Forcecage goes out of it's way to specify that you can't cast spells into/out of it because it has gaps in it's default form.
animeus wrote:
I can only imagine that many of the worst offenses of 4e and the eventual free action nerf helped inspire the bonus action rule in its current form.
mellored wrote:
With all the other comments, not sure if we are sitll discussing problomatic Spells. Personally, I am having a time wrapping my mnd around Antipath/Empathy with its 10 day duration. Seems like you could just cycle through 8 most common intelligent creatures and adventure the other two for an almost constant fear effect ore lure to the fighter. Chaotic use of True Polymorph, 8 days in a boatyard with a herd of cows for food = massive increase in the dragon population. How about spending any number of days less than thirty Awakening a forest for a small army (charmed for 30 days).
randl wrote:
Orethalion wrote: