Hello!
After the first Gaming session after the Basic Rules some observation: We are generally very happy with the new rulechanges with one exception - the effect of the new Concentration rule of purely defensive selfbuffs seems deeply flawed.
Due to the new Concentration can be disrupted by Damage rule purely defensive selfbuff are too weak (and especially only "worth" to be cast out of combat just before the fight, and sometimes not even this).
Reasoning:
Either you will not be hit - and then casting the +2 AC Buff is pointless - or you will be hit and then - unless you have a Con Proficiency - after 1-2 hits the defensive selfbuff is gone. Meaning the investment "sacrificing a complete turn to cast it" is too "expensive". Not to mention lvl 4 purely defensive selfbuffs which are too expensive. And the effect that it "forces" casters to multiclass into a Con-proficient class is just too heavy (outweighs any lvl 20 feature).
But I commented this already when they originally talked about the Concentration change 
Suggested solutions:
a) Purely defensive self buffs are not disrupted by Damage, only other Concentration spells
or b) There is a feat to achieve a)
or c) For purely defensive self-buffs it is min(10,dmg/2) instead of max(10/dmg/2)
or d) Instead of a Con-Save a Save against the Caster-Stat is used (but this would be "too strong" in my opinion, then all
Concentration-Spells would nearly be save from disruption by damage)
or e) d), but only for purely defensive self-buffs
or f) purely defensive self-buffs are all swift-cast (to cast them up fast again) - still does not solve that lvl 4 purely defensive selfbuffs are too expensive and not "worth it"
In our game I cast a purely defensive selfbuff in the first battle (Protection from Energy) but desided to save me the lvl 3 spell in the second fight, after the buff was removed on the second round - doing some damage in that round to cast the buff and take a bit more damage was more worth it than casting the spell.
Asides from this issue there is the issue with spells like Shield of Faith which IMHO is still too "weak" (+2 AC for one person is too weak compared to something like Bless which is a huge buff on the complete group). IMHO this spell should be non-concentration, like Mage Armor. Another option would of course be to allow both a offensive and defensive concentration-spell (which we use as a houserule since several weeks, and have made good experience with that... suddenly spells like Shield of Faith were actually used ^^)
Best regards,
Steffen
Or more likely, you don't cast it on yourself.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing a feat for this. I still think a lot of buffs should be limited by concentration, but yeah it does make being a battle cleric a bit harder since ideally you don't want to take damage. Sanctuary is perfect for people who want to buff/cure during a fight and not be doing damage. But if you're a war cleric you should be able to toss up a bless and wade into the melee.
The feat would need to be clear that it only works on buffs, not things like hold person. But I think the conc mechanic by itself does a pretty good job limiting the power of buffs.
Hire NPCs to cast them on you and stay out of the fight. What else are you going to spend your plat on?
Weren't the concentration spells limited enough, even without them being breakable by damage? Preventive mechanic against CoDzilla?
Anyway, this probably will not change, time to figure out how to make them worthwhile:
- Buff someone else
- Get proficiency on CON saves
- Don't get hit (favor defensive buffs that give AC over resistance)
- Preserve concentration with the Shield spell (very defensive, I know...)
- Improve CON
Wow, a lot of those options are really unappealing....
Dracones wrote:
mellored wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
Improved invisibility, stone skin, haste, all seem like great defensive buffs that can prevent you from being hurt or even being targeted.
LFK wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
MagicSN wrote:
@blackwarder : if a stonskined wizard is taking damage should he make a concentration check?
@mikemearls : yes, unless spell says otherwise
@blackwarder : so is it intended to be cast on the fighter and not on the wizard?
@mikemearls : that's probably your best use for it
MagicSN wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
One could hurl a number of evocations as long as the concentration buffs last, I suppose. All the interesting spells, illusion and enchantments and whatnot, are concentration too. So, options are limited, really. If I wanted to throw fire and ice balls I'd pick a game with tons of mana potions, not D&D's intricate spell list. That said, at least they are upfront with Basic, even if the concentration spell list has changed greatly since the last playtest packet in October. You know what your buying into, or not buying into, I guess. The solution, as it has always been with D&D, is one's DM.
Psikerlord wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
As an old, wizard loving grognard myself, I am surpised to find that I really like the way concentration buffs work. It adds a very interesting tactical dimension to the game, where the other characters, who may well be benificiaries of a concentration buff like fly or haste, will have to provide distracting attacks, misdirecting ruses, and body shields to keep their buffs up. This also goes for things like walls, illusions, and probably (we have yet to see) conjured monsters.
It also feels more like literary fantasy fiction. It usually seems to be the case that damaging a wizard disrupts their magic.
Finally, a game that gives my 17th level evoker a meteor swarm with a 1 mile range that creates four 40 foot radius 40d6 fireballs does not seem to be nerfing magic much. My only regret is that you can't center it on someone. Not that you really need to.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
LupusRegalis wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
People complain about stoneskin but it looks like a spell to cast on yopur fighter then go invisible and stay out of danger. Same with haste.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
masterfat78 wrote:
I find it amusing that someone was complaining in another thread about them removing tactical decision making from wizards because of Shape Spell when the concentration spell mechanics actually force spellcasters to be more tactcal than they ever have before. "Fire and forget" for 40 years becomes "fire and watch your ass".
MechaPilot wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
masterfat78 wrote:
This is something they should have had in the general playtest first.
It's not a good idea to make something, playtest it, then put in something else that cancels it roughly half the time due to a regular occurance. It's not small adjustment.
Noon wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
It is good that casters are Both OP and Suck as mentioned above
I get the feeling we wont really know until a good many games past the full release date......still the internet would be empty if it werent for speculation
Trying my first game post basic rules release later so will keep an eye out of this Conc thing!
I believe people are still viewing the game through the lense of different editions instead of approaching it as different game. There are some similarities to be drawn, yes, and that was intention all along, but so long as someone is trying to cram the Triangle into the Square, they're going to be disappointed.
Ramzour wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
There is also the choice if you want to be a combat oriented caster then choose a gish, warlock or a cleric. Get out of the mind set of one class can do it all.
Ashrym wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
There's a lot more flexibility and options that people aren't giving wizards credit for. For one, if you have an important conc spell up you have really good reflex options like shield to turn a hit on you into a miss that lets you keep your concentration up.
But really I think evokers are going to be the AE kings. Bounded accuracy means that packs of low level monsters can kill a party, but with sculpting your wizard can put fireballs anywhere and wipe out an 8x8 grid of enemies quite often. High level wizard action would look like: 10 ogres rush the party, 4 surround the wizard who shields to deflect after the first hit, overchannels a high slot fireball and GG ogres time for the next encounter.
Sculpting drastically changes how evokers operate. I don't think we can say too much about concentration spells until we see the other archtypes like conjurer or enchanter.
I concur with the original poster, I hate the concentration rule. There are numerous spells that will produce very poor value (I hesitate to say 'worthless' and risk being defeated by literal-ists). The war-cleric archetype is just out the window: 'Prayer' and 'Magic Weapon' are especially junk'y, provided too small an immediate boost given the risk of concdntration-breakage. The design problem is lumping hugely powerful magic like slow in with small buffs like these.
There are a few spells that really shouldn't require concentration, like Magic Weapon. Magic weapon provides a very minor bonus for its spell level, and doesn't stack with magic items. I can't see my chracter ever bothering to learn or use that spell. It just doesn't compare to any of the other things I could be using my concentration for.
FallingIcicle wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
There aren't really that many Defensive Self Buffs:
Blur
That is all. Every other defensive buff spell can be cast on another creature. And Blur makes it very hard for creatures to hit you in the first place, meaning you might not even need to make any concentration checks.
Personally, I like this. In the past, casters would simply buff themselves (often with multiple spells), and this (at least in my games) was part of the reason for caster dominance. Now, not only can you only have a single concentration spell active at a time, you are typically better off buffing another party member and continuing to keep out of harm's way.
Polymorph Self... Tenser's Transormation...
Wuddayameanwizardscouldn'tdomelee?
Lawolf wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
1eejit wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Mage Armor spell does not require Concentration, lasts 8 hours, and provides you with 13 + Dex armor.
Foresight spell does not require Concentration, and provides a very potent buff for 8 hours. (It's also worth noting that the benefits are "you can't be suprised" and gaining Advantage or imposing Disadvantage on a lot of things. There's nothing inhearently "magical" about it, but it's way way better then anything a 17-20th level Fighter or Rogue gets.
Predictions: After the PHB and 6-8ish splat books with spells are published, you'll be able to assemble a list of 6-8ish buff spells with a long duration that don't require Concentration, and CoDzilla (or MageZilla?) will be reborn.
Person_Man wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
mellored wrote:
Ahglock wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
In the leaked alpha there is a feat that gives you advantage to Con saves for concentration. There is also a feat that gives you +1 Con and proficiency in Con saves. It looks like it won't be that hard to maintain concentration after all. So any spell with a 1 hour duration will be really nice.
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
If there is a leaked alpha PHB this wouldn't be a place for discussing (let alone sharing) it.
However I would not be at all surprised if feats similar to what Lawolf describes do exist in the PHB when it is released.
FallingIcicle wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
UYtrdennis wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Ahglock wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Couldn't the argument be made that clerics have powerful buff spells while wizards do not.
P.S. I still think you grisly underestimate the potential power of the magic weapon spell cast by a paladin, eldritch knight, valor bard, or blade pact warlock. Also abjuration wizards are great at casting concentration spells as they get 2x level +Int mod as a damage shield. This means that until their damage shield is depleted, they don't need to make concentration saves.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Magic weapon allows you to bypass resistance to normal weapons; bless just gives a bonus. That's a major difference; although, I can see it being less important if a group never runs into weapon resistance creatures. Is it enough to justify the level and apparent "power" difference between the spells? Up to you. But Magic Weapon does fulfill a role separate from Bless, even if that role isn't what you want...
Lawolf wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Ok, but that circumstance is going to be far more rare than the very reliable Guiding Bolt.
Orethalion wrote:
1eejit wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
magic weapon is for when the monster has resistance againt non-magical weapons, some examples of which are in the starter set.
The cool thing about the 5e magic system (at least for clerics and wizards), is that you can prepare a spell that is very circumstantial in utility without having to sacrafice a casting slot in doing so. It makes preparing spells both easier, and more insteresting. Its easier, because you don't have to weigh the probablility of the spell being used vs. the value of the slot the spell is taking up. Its more interesting because now you are only considering the various circumstances you are likely to encounter and which spells may have utility in those circumstances, and that is fun, because you get try to out think fate/the DM.
So, my wizard might prepare magic weapon on the chance that the tomb contains a wight (just guessing that wights require magic weapons to hit them), but if it doesn't, or no big deal. I will just use those slots to cast some other spell.
Psikerlord wrote: