Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mestewart3 Jul 08, 2014 22:38:34	So, in a few other threads there have been debates about how various monsters fit into the encounter guidelines.  Some feel the need for changes, others do not.  I'm setting this thread up so that people who DO believe there should be some changes to the CR/XP & various rules for particular monsters can discuss what those changes should be.   This is NOT a place for people who believe there should be no change.  Those discussions are being had elsewhere.  This is ONLY a thread for people who believe there should be changes, about how those changes should be implemented.   **SPOILERS FOR MONSTERS IN THE STARTER SET**   Before I get started on the particular monsters I think need some sort of change I am going to adress something that jumps out at me as being particularly odd.  The existance of Fractional CR monsters puzzles me.  There isn't a level below one so what exactly this CR difference is supposed to mean is beyond my understanding.  I think all monsters should be either CR 1 or CR 0 (non combatants that will rarely if ever be in any way threatening and who should give 0 xp) outside of that XP difference is enough to differentiate between low level monsters.    Bugbear: The prime example bandied about as being too dangerous.  The Bugbear has 27 HP, 16 AC and a +3 dex save (as of now the dominant save vs player damage spells).  He also does an average of 11 damage on a hit and has a +7 average damage sneak attack bonus.  He has a solid stealth of +6 (only equalizable by a perception expertise rogue with at least +2 wisdom) and is noted in his descriptive text to be fond of ambushes.  He is placed at CR 1 and is a 200 exp monster.  My recomendation is that he is increased to a CR 2 monster and left as he is.  While he may be a bit much for a first level party he would make a good enemy at second level if paired with some mooks or perhaps a second bugbear for a standard encounter. Doppleganger: While most of his stats seem fairly in line with his CR 2 challenge rating and his 700 XP a higher end challenging encounter for a second level party.  Considering the ease of a sneak attack (+10 average damage for the doppleganger) I think it is important that he only be able to use this sneak attack damage on one of his two attacks.  Being able to do 2 17 damage attacks in one turn is a seriously powerfull ability against a second level party. Those are the two that jump out at me, feel free to add your own.
#2 MonsterEnvy Jul 09, 2014 17:51:25	Sneak attack is once a turn. The Doppleganger is fine.    The Bugbear is also fine my party just fought one and his wolf and goblin helpers. My character a Fighter was the only one to die and it was due to in character stupidity.   Two goblins had gotten 2 lucky bow shots on me leaving me at one hp. Combine this with my characters flaw which is that he is terrified of Bugbears (Which i stated added the Frightened condition to him.) After the party started ganging up on the Bugbear and it was my turn my character dicided to run away and not bother with the disengage action my reasoning being that he was too scared to think clearly about this. So I gave the Bugbear an aoo on me which he hit and did max damage with killing me. (Followed by the rest of my party killing him before his next turn.)  I only died do to bad decisions on my end.
(Reply to #2) mestewart3	MonsterEnvy wrote:
#4 ChrisCarlson Jul 09, 2014 17:59:34	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #3) MonsterEnvy	mestewart3 wrote:
#6 Lawolf Jul 09, 2014 18:08:07	My preferred solution:    HP = Con score + HD (or average of HD).    You do not get to add Con mod to HP each level. You do not max your HD at first level.    This gives level 1 PCs between 14 (10 Con wizard) and 22 (16 Con fighter) HP at level 1. Compared to the 6-13 HP they currently have, this means they will be a lot more resilient at low level.   At high levels, the lack of Con mod will have a few effects. One, it will reduce max HP across the board by 20-80 points. Two, it will reduce the variance between the highest and lowest HP characters.
#7 Karnos Jul 09, 2014 18:10:37	The thing is, a challenge 1 monster should be a decent fight, alone, for a level 1 party.  If it's damage is such that it can't one-hit anyone, that means a max of maybe 10 damage, lets call it 2d4+2, for an average of 7 damage.  It's actually going to need to hit the tougher characters (anything tougher than a wizard with 12+ con) more than once just to down them.   Add to that the simple fact that even if it has +6 to hit or so, it's going to miss characters nearly half the time.  It's going to take this monster 10+ rounds of combat, on average, just to down the whole party.  Add in a few cleric healing words, or a fighter's second wind, or just potions of healing, and the monster is literally going to need 15+ rounds to actually be a threat.   Then you work out the parties average damage.  Long story short, but to make a challenge 1 monster an "easy" challenge to a party of level 1 characters, it either needs to do some good solid damage (a-la bugbear), or it needs to have HUNDREDS of hp, which is really kind of absurd when you think about it.
(Reply to #4) mestewart3	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#9 ChrisCarlson Jul 09, 2014 18:21:10	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #7) mestewart3	Karnos wrote:
#11 AaronOfBarbaria Jul 09, 2014 20:12:37	Okay, sorry everyone, random gripe incoming:   Mesterwart3, please stop saying "sneak attack" when you are refering to something besides the rogue class feature of that name. Bugbears do not have "sneak attack," they have "surprise attack" - a similar, but distinctly and intentionally different ability.   Same with hobgoblins and their "martial advantage", and same with dopplegangers and their "surprise attack," which functions in the same way as the same-named feature of the bugbear, but adds greater damage.   It is important to use the correct names for things.
#12 surf13 Jul 09, 2014 20:41:06	Lawolf wrote:
#13 FFSAA Jul 09, 2014 21:24:08	Karnos wrote:
#14 Noon Jul 09, 2014 23:16:01	FFSAA wrote:
#15 Ramzour Jul 10, 2014 1:20:08	A list of things that could happen:   1) Party sees a Bugbear/Hobgoblin + other monsters ahead. Ranged attacks commence. Bugbear/Hobgoblin dies because ranged attacks. Party wins.   2) Party sees a Bugbear/Hobgoblin + other monsters ahead. Party decides to avoid combat. Party wins. 3) Bugbear/Hobgoblin attempt to surprise the party with an ambush. Party notices. No ambush happens. See #1 or #2.   4) Bugbear/Hobgoblin attempt to surprise the party with an ambush. Party does not notice. Ambush happens! Ouch! Bugbear/Hobgoblin dies in a round or two from the rest of the party's attacks. Party wins.
#16 Ramzour Jul 10, 2014 1:23:42	FFSAA wrote:
#17 Shasarak Jul 10, 2014 1:53:02	Ramzour wrote:
#18 Shasarak Jul 10, 2014 1:59:46	Having the monsters use average damage stops a lot of the potential swingyness
#19 LFK Jul 10, 2014 2:31:46	The Giant Spider and the Bugbear both do significantly above expected damage for their CR. Pretty much every CR1 creature in the Starter does at least 3 points more than they should, except the Ghoul.   The Doppelganger is actually a smidge low on damage for its CR, but has above average HD and accuracy, so that probably works out fine.   Hobgoblins should be CR 1, no question.   Bugbears should probably be CR 2.   Zombies are a CR 1/2, even taking into account their wacky stats.   Wolves should probably be CR 1/2.   Owlbears should be a CR 4.   The Young Green Dragon's defences are massively over-inflated.   Ochre Jellies are like a novelty toy, but they're fine.   Giant Spiders should be CR 2, if not 3, with 2 more HD.   Note on Hit Dice: right now they're determined by size, which is a garbage way of determining HP. IMO monster HP should be determined by back-solving from intended play experience, not assigned based on some meaningless simulation. Giant Spiders, for example, have d10 hit dice, so they actually have fewer hit dice than they should based on their level purely because they had to try to hit role-appropriate HP using d10s. Personally I would re-adjust every single monster in the Starter set with predictable XdY HD progression with d8 as the baseline, moved up or down steps depending on desired outcome, not the size of the monster's body.
(Reply to #11) mestewart3	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#21 FFSAA Jul 10, 2014 7:39:48	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #19) AaronOfBarbaria	LFK wrote:
#23 docdoom77 Jul 10, 2014 7:56:42	Lawolf wrote:
#24 kill_the_wiz_first Jul 10, 2014 7:56:46	Ramzour wrote:
#25 The_Jester Jul 10, 2014 9:17:59	mestewart3 wrote:
#26 MrHotter Jul 10, 2014 10:11:03	I think to really figure this out we'd need the monster creation guidelines. It looks like they made all monsters more challenging (after we requested it in the beta).   If we create a new monster that is CR 1 that is a high damage striker would it look similar to the bugbear?    I think the combat rating is about right if you figure that 1 bugbear = 2 hobgoblin = 4 goblins.   The part that people are legitimately concerned about is the lethality rating. Since player characters have such low hps at level 1 or 2 they have a higher chance to take damage over their max hps in one hit. That would be an issue for those who play a very strict RAW game.   I'd rather see the instant death rules altered for low levels than to see everyone running around with higher HPs at low levels. If you raise the players HPs then you have to raise the monsters HPs or every fight is too easy.  I personally like low level fights to be over fast and would rather not turn every fight into a drawn out war of attrition.
#27 LFK Jul 10, 2014 12:09:44	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #27) MonsterEnvy	LFK wrote:
#29 ChrisCarlson Jul 10, 2014 13:28:36	LFK wrote:
#30 Ramzour Jul 11, 2014 1:58:34	FFSAA wrote:
#31 Xeviat-DM Jul 11, 2014 3:14:29	The amount of damage that the Evil Mage can put out without an attack roll (CR 1 monster with access to level 2 magic missile, or 4d4+4 damage, no roll) is out of line. That's 14 damage on average, or more HP than a 1st level fighter. Pop, someone goes down.
#32 Ramzour Jul 11, 2014 4:06:12	Shasarak wrote:
#33 Shasarak Jul 11, 2014 4:12:47	Ramzour wrote:
#34 Ramzour Jul 11, 2014 4:30:58	Shasarak wrote:
#35 Shasarak Jul 11, 2014 5:26:43	Why dont we play the game where we at least try and stick to the topic of the thread?
#36 Ramzour Jul 11, 2014 5:53:57	Shasarak wrote: