Recently, I went to a 50th Wedding Anniversary party that included all of my cousins (well, some of them), my Aunt's. My cousin Eric probably says the most important thing about why he didn't pick up D&D 5th. He picked up 4th edition and was disappointed with Wizards enough not to pick up 5th.
Unlike my cousin, I am quite excited by 5th edition. However, I realise it can't be the rules you play so far as one's imagination is stimulated. I'm looking forward to November. How can I not? In my line of thinking, better 3rd party support is as just as valuable as new customers.
Sure, we are going to run into drek, refuse, and pretty much bad rule making by the 3rd party; but not all of it is bad:
- Cerulean Seas.
- the Land of the Jade Oath.
- Ptolus.
- Conan the Barbarian the Roleplaying Game (2nd Edition).
- My stuff . . . (My stuff hasn't been officially released, yet. Since my target is . . . WIZARDS OF THE COAST!
No, really. I'm going to sell an InDesign document to any and all RPG companies in the world.)
A lot of gamers like my stuff, by the way. I'm running six campaigns, all online, and I'm advertising for a seventh. I digress.
It seems a lot like the new D&D 5th Edition is what everyone wants out of D&D. The DM's guide is probably going to be the best part of the whole three book package. However, it looks like you will have your work cut out for you, Wizards of the Coast. A brand usually lasts only fifty years. Lets see if the last ten years of D&D's lifespan can be prosperous for Wizards of the Coast.
When 4e came out, I went to the FLGS and looked through the PHB, I could tell the game wasn't for me. Why wouldn't people at least go look at the 5e PHB and get a feel for it?
AH_schulerta wrote:
The word fanboy gets tossed around alot, and I actually dislike it greatly. I definitely see many gamers develop an irrational loyalty to a specific product, or an irrational aversion to a product, and I think that may come in to play here. That being said, I always completely understand that some gamers are totally happy with their current game, and have no reason to want to switch to 5e. That's totally legitimate. I won't argue for too long with anyone who boycots one product because of a previous one they didn't like, as I tend to think they are irrational in the first place. AH_schulerta and Shiroiken both did hte rational thing.
I hope 5e isn't too hard a sell for most people, but I guess time will tell. At least it seems to be doing very well right out of the gates.
This is a big problem, and I'm not sure WotC knows how to handle it.
I'm not sure there is a good way short of word-of-mouth. If people enjoy 5e they will talk about 5e and word will spread. All WotC can do is encourage people to look at the rules and talk about the game.
The fact that the basic rules are free is certainly intended to encourage people to look at the game to see if they might like it. I don't really know how much more WotC can do about 5e being a "hard sell" that they're not already doing (i.e. giving away the product for free, and setting up events for organized play).
Some people are going to, frankly, be impossible to sell to. That's okay in my book, because frankly that level of irrationality (this company once made a product I dislike; therefore, I will never give any product they produce ever again a chance!) is central to a lot of the more serious problems in the RPG-playing community, and having 5e attract new players (via being a good product) and bring back rational old players (by capturing the best of the feel of previous editions) while filtering out the crazies will probably, in the long run, be good for the brand.
Might hurt for a couple of years, though. Absurd levels of irrationality are fairly common in the existing gaming community.
The major problem right now is that everybody is being quite out of Indy and that scares me. If it is great they would be tweeting and posting all over the place but there has not been a peep out of Gen Con. So my feeling is that the people who played the adventures did not like the new edition.
Ishorn wrote:
I think a problem is, while 5e is a good system, it doesn't shake anything up. It's vary conservative so far. Why play it? Why love it? Why hate it? It's just....There.
It's not going to convert PF players back to 'real' D&D. It's not going to get people who've been playing 1e, 2e, and BECMI...because why would they quit that stuff after 20+ years?
It's also not wowing many 4e fans, who see it as a 3e/2e hybrid.
Plus, TTRPG's have it rough anyway, with board, card, and video games all doing much better in a business-y way. It's been like that for 14+ years now. Am I the only one who's noticed that board games have had a resurgence, card games like MtG (and FF's non-random buy card games) make more money, and video games just straight up WIN. Video games make more money than any other single form of entertainment (Beating out movies in revenue for a few years in a row, now).
Regardless, I'm still buying the 5e MM, because I want it 
Once it can be objectively reviewed as a whole product (in November) we'll see how well it'll really do. Plus, we need announcements as to what's coming in 2015. If Hasbro/WotC just calls it a day, and doesn't publish more books (aside from some FR adventures)...well, many fans won't want it. D&D's draw, to me, has been it's variety. Setting books, splat books, etc. are needed to 'sell' D&D.
Probably weren't that interested in the first place and used 4E as an excuse to give up on roleplaying in general.
People often use surrogates as an excuse for something else.
The_Jester wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
Wasn't a hard sell for me, but then I'm not a huge fan of Pathfinder. I've been wanting to play real D&D again for a long time.
in my own RL groups (there are 2), some aren't interested in 5e just due to edition fatigue. the 3.0 --> 3.5 transition, then 4e only a few years after 3.5 really alienated them. a few gamers i know online are still annoyed by the transition from 3.x's OGL to the much more restrictive 4e-style GSL--and WOTC has been playing it very cute re: what licensing will be available for 5e, if memory serves.
and these are people who would like 5e based on what we know about it.
a number of them have converted to PF instead. for them, the geek quote "joss whedon is my master now" is really what we're talking about here.
me personally, i've pre-ordered all 3 books. i look forward to getting them and at some point, potentially converting my 4e game to 5e...if i can get buy-in from my players. my wife at least will be an easier sell, cuz who wants to have only one or two encounters in a session? when i first heard how long a 5e combat takes real-time, i think i literally drooled!
Ishorn wrote:
I have removed content from this thread because Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
Please remember to keep your comments positive, productive, and on topic. Remember we are trying to create a
mutually beneficial and productive community for everyone to take part in.
At the end of the day we are all in this thing together, and if we don't work together we will never get anywhere!
If you have any questions or would like to read the CoC you can find it here:
http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Remember, Keep it clean, Keep it nice, and of course Keep it fun!
Thank you for your understanding!
Zyph wrote:
It depends on how many DMs give it a try (old and new), and for those that have been a DM for a while, what tools are available to support the play style the DM wants. That will be the hard sell.
I'm still waiting on the DMG. I suspect that if they at least give a nod to the old school I'll buy the three books as collectors items if nothing else. I'm at the point though where I'm unsure if I'll end up running it either way.
Right now they've given everybody a little bit and thus are forcing everybody to accept a little bit. Which is fine if compromise is your ultimate goal. Still I wonder though if for me it wouldn't be better to just choose a game that completely supports my playstyle or even better if I had time write my own from bits and pieces of other systems. I'm sure 5e would factor into those bits and pieces ultimately if I went that route.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
I think a lot still has to do with what kind of game you want to play. 3.5e, 4e and 5e all have their merrits and will attact a differnt sort of player. I think the smartest thing that WotC did was release the basic rules online. Any boardgame or RPG I am interested in I always want to download the rulebook (or preview of the rules in the case of an RPG) and give them at least a quick look to see if it is something I would invest my time with. If you think the game may be a "hard sell", you can direct the potential players to download and look over the Basic Rules pdf and see what they think!
In my case, I almost never follow the D&D background and prefer to mix and match my own campaigns, stealing ideas from a variety of adventures and campaigns. I am looking forward to the release of the Monster Manual and DMG. I just wish they had released the three core books together as a set.
Back in the Scott Rouse days they were saying about 20 million people had played D&D and the active pool of players was about 2 million.
To put that in perspective the best selling WotC edition was 3.0 and sold 500,000 copies. A former brand team member emailed me that 350,000 to 400,000 3.5 PHBs were sold.
Mike Mearls was saying that 4e sold more than 3.0 but I expect many are sceptical of that. However he also said about half the audience wasn't really happy with 4e. (Remember though that means that half were - which is still a substantial number).
Erik Mona reported at GAMA that Paizo had just reached 250,000 Core Rulebooks sold and it was the best selling RPG for 2012-2013.
So for each edition change the majority of players did not buy the current edition, and in fact the majority of players aren't really customers in the business sense.
It would be quite likely that 5e could be the best selling ever and still have most players not interested in switching because any of the previous systems hits their preferences better or at least closer as a starting point, or any number of practical reasons not to switch.
JodyJohnson wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
I have seen a good deal of buzz about 5th online, FB and twitter. Our groups overall response has been overwhelmingly positive. Even out WotC hater has said he still would prefer to play Savage Worlds but admitted that he feels like it is the best itteration of D&D to date. Our group picked up 4 PH's and I am waiting on the MM & DMG. Mind you we were all playing PF and are happy to move to 5th edition.
Also I met up with one of my players other groups DM (who is currently using PF) and he too was interested to get our gameplay impressions for a possible move to 5th.
The_Jester wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Sigh. You know, I don't know why I read these threads. I always feel obligated to post in there.
In 3rd D&D took a big chance. They threw open the doors and said, "Go crazy" And people went crazy. And lo'it was fun.
But then people started complaining, "Hey, nobody is running this place! This place hurts my brain!" And a whole lot of people thold those people to shut the hell up and a whole lot of rudeness occured.
So the people at WotC listen and thought, "Hey, maybe what people want is a more controled game" And lo 4th arrived.
The problem is (among many things) is 4th was down right insulting. It assumed I was Dog'Denmad idiot. It tried to sell me what I already had. Worse, they went full-court press on the PR to tell me I was an idiot and tried to force me to play 4th. Well screw you. I'm broke. I can't afford all this crap you are trying to make money off of me with. Do you know how many thousands of dollars I've already given you? I got a library in my house. I never throw a book out.
But then I'm told 4th is about "new" players and "new" blood and the problem is, new players and new blood have Borderlands and WoW and trust me, you can't fight that. D&D can't fight that. D&D can't BE that. But they tried. And well, I don't care about sales of fans or anything. The game brought nothing new. It tried to sell me my old stuff. The game failed, not for sales, not for fans, but because it lacked the two things it can have that no video game can ever have: 1) Practical Application of Unlimited Imagination. 2) Face to face interaction.
Yeah yeah, Roll20, on line gaming. Blah Blah. Still face to "face". Just using telepresence, that's all.
4th took a chainsaw to my possibilities and told me I should be happy about it. It was for my conveanance. I'm not an idiot. I can tell when you are making choices based on demographics and focus groups. I can tell when someone with a suit and tie makes a choice based on profit margins. 4th Edition was just an attempt to squeese as much money as possible out of me. Oh, there were people who cared, People who tried, but not the people in control. The firing of all the old staff. The butchering of Forgotten Realms. The attempt to get rid of anything that they'd have to pay royalties on. Well, good job. You got rid of everything I liked. And I don't think I was the only one who felt this way. Oh, they will put it differently, they'll bring up different things, but it's the same basic problem.
So now we got 5th.
People are eyeing it suspciously. Trust is a hard thing to get back once you lost it, and WotC lost it. They slashed and burned trust like it was found in a strip mine and burned it to fuel their bonus checks. So they put on a show, they bring back those they once were so distainful of. They do everything except come right out and say, "We're sorry." But the problem is, while the PR campaign is great, I'm still getting that greedy feeling. I get this "hairs on the back of my neck" and "crawling skin" feeling that WotC is still controled by the ones who would burn D&D to the ground to make a few extra bucks before they skipped out to some other job.
See, a Game is like a computer operating system. D&D 3rd was like Microsoft and 4th was trying to be like Apple. 3rd was multiple layers of wierdness, but it was backwards compatable and you could do so so much with it, despite it's buggy nature. 4th tried to be like Apple, limit the choices, but make the choices stable and flawless so even an idiot could use it. The problem is, to act like apple, you have to BE Apple. You have to be pure AWESOME. Everything you do have to be so AWESOME.
Well, awesome costs money and they fired everyone who brought the awesome because they cost too much. The new hires didn't bring the awesome. They brought the average. So 4th sort of sputtered and limped along.
So we're at 5th and I'm... here. I'm reading it. I'm... not insulted. It's got some quirky things. It's got some potential. But I can tell. I can really tell that the creative and awesome ones are already losing it. I can see it. Slowly, ever so slowly. Someone, somewhere is shouting for money money money. They are chomping at the bit. Howling in the dark for more dividens. Investers without a creative bone in their body barking on phones, "WHERE IS MY MONEY?" Will the creative ones cave? Will D&D slip through their fingers and fall into the realm of self-parody?
So you want this to work? You want to get 5th to crush all other games out there and rule the gaming universe once again? Simple:
1) Open source - However, make it clear if you make your own product, WotC has the right to steal anything you make, and after 1 year, anyone else can steal what you made. This will encourage the creative part of the gaming community to get out there and work their ass off for a small amount of profit without every really making a serious threat against the main game. Furtheremore, WotC can brand themselves as "Official D&D Content" Which, trust me, while 3rd party stuff is a fun read, I don't use 1% of what I've read. People take all the beta release risk and expence, WotC skims off the top. It's cynical, but you know what? I'd live with it because it'll get results.
2) Bury Me In Options - You have 4 previous editions to data mine. I want 2000 spells in the PHB. I want Psionics, Day One. I want Magic Items. I want 50 classes with each one having 4 sub classes. 400 weapons with 50 materials and 500 different magical effects to enchant those weapons. Give me the best of the best of the best for the previous 4 editions and then say, "HERE. This is CORE. How's THAT for an opener? And it will only get more AWESOME from here."
And it would. It would get more awesome You'd have people hooked. First hit's free, but I need a hit. I need a MASSIVE jolt. I need more then... this. Trickling out the PHB, DMG, MM? Sigh. Just.... sigh. Bored now. Yeah, it's fun to flip through it. Waste some time. Go, "Huh. Say, short range teleportation using walls of force. That's new." But, you know what? I already had that. I already got Oh... lets see... Rought estimate... 600 D&D books? 1200? Something like that. But some people just have a few books, then borrow a few from friends, then get ideas on line. That's enough for most people because, frankly, WotC ain't giving us anything new. It's like some wierd amalgamation of 2nd and 3rd. Ya know, I can get into the "old school" feel. But If you are going "old school", you need to give me more then a handful of spells.
Then you make your money on the settings. A nice, generic, universal Massive rule set of possibilities open sourced so you got thousands of options, then start tricking out forgotten realsm setting specific crap. Then Eberron specific crap. Then a one shot, pilot setting, just to see if people will buy it. The money is in the settings, not in the rules. Trying to make money off the rules is pointless. I thought... THOUGHT they ALMOST got it when they released the free PDF... but then I saw the free PDF. Stripped down piece of crap. It was like that blue and white boxed set where I had to ink my dice. You promised me a sports car. I got a used Gremlin.
So, there you have it. There you go. That's where this is heading and where it's been. They are going to do what they are going to do. And I doubt I'll see anything new. It'll be sort of like 4th and sort of like 2nd and a little bit of 3rd, but in the end, it'll be a step above 4th, but not quite as chaotic as 3rd. Sort of like an upgrade of 2nd edition, really. Which isn't bad. I liked 2nd. It was nice. But... I still feel like this is just a bunch of greedy paper-pushers who have learned from their mistakes and are trying to squeese money out of me, but just not QUITE as fast, or as hard, and try to be more diplomatic about it. They learned how to sheer sheep without killing them. Which is good, I suppose. Yay! Learning point for them!
Hard to trust that.
Gunthar wrote:
Captnq wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
I like 5th edition already. I really, really do. Contrary to what Captnq wrote, I don't want a zillion options. I want a simple game. I hated 3.5 and Pathfinder's no better. I did like 4e up through about 7th level and after that it became unplayable. Thing is, I wouldn't call 4e D&D. It was DnD, a similar but different game. 5e is D&D. It's simple and easy to learn. I think it will make a lot of money.
To be honest, I want more options than Captnq does. I don't think the sum of all options from all editions is enough. For me, D&D needs more options than it has ever even dreamt of.
"Then double it."
Chakravant wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
I want DISCRETE options. I want to have an archetype in mind, open the right book, and find that archetype written there as a feat, subclass, or class. I don't want ten thousand feats that each build me a tenth of the way toward playing what I want; I want a thousand (eventually) that each get me to a different "what I want" the moment I take them.
Most of all, I want feats and classes and subclasses that put ideas in my head that weren't there before, then actually work for achieving those ideas. My biggest issue with 3.5, beyond trap options and bad math and clerical superiority, was how often it flat-out lied to me.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Gunthar wrote:
I am finding it a hard sell, although I'm completely sold myself (with the caveat that house rules are required, and I hope the DMG reduces the number I need to make myself).
One couple I brought it up to was in the camp of hating 4e and therefore unwilling to look at anything WotC did afterwards--which I think is unreasonable. Companies can change just like people change. Just because you don't like what they made a few years ago doesn't mean you might not like something new. And that's as far as I want to talk about that topic.
The second situation I had was getting to experience 5e as a player for the first time a couple days ago. During the session one of the other guys was fairly critical of 5e's simplification of things compared to 3e. First he told me how he didn't like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic. I told him there would be a module for that in the DMG. Later on the lack of flanking came up, and I told him flanking and similar combat complexities are going to be options in the DMG. There was at least one other similar objection he brought up, but I don't recall what it was specifically.
See, for me, everything he disliked about it is something I like about it. It all related to the faster and more fluid combat and general play of 5e. He could just be in love with 3e (I think it's the only edition he's played), and not ready to look at anything else, which is fine. On the other hand, he didn't mind that it was WotC like the other couple. Give him a DMG and he'll take a look at it, I'm guessing.
I think it's going to be an easier sell once the DMG is out. And then after we get sufficient player saturation, most of those who won't even look at it because of WotC are either going to retreate into caves with likeminded folk, or sit down and look at the books. Then they can make an informed decision and play whatever they prefer.
So it's going to have a phased acceptance. Some of us already like it (with varying degrees of houserules). A second wave is going to gradually convert after the DMG gives them options to create what they want better. And then a third wave is going to convert once it becomes popular enough that ignorance of the rules becomes difficult and they have to take a look at it.
Atheosis wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
I'm pretty excited now that I had a great look at it (someone shared their copy with me. What? Sharing is fine.) Looking over it, I'm very exicited, although two things struck me as wrong. But who cares, I can fix the two patches.
The Feats are wonderful. They actually look like ~FEATS~; additional class features you can get. All of them are done better.
As for options: Nope, I don't need a lot of options, what I need is something to fire the imagination in a game environment. I bought GURPS books to data mine them (yay!). I still have my 2e books, and all of my 3rd edition books, and all of my pathfinder books (okay, all of my PF books are on my hard drive).
But everyone that pointed out their reasons for not buying it or their friends not buying it, and only Cap'n seemed honest enough to tell us it was all about money. Well, a few things are all about earning money so we can live; yeah. But surely, reading through this, I don't think it was about Greed. I think it was a labor of love. First of all, they learned what was wrong with 4th edition, and they dumped it. They took the best of all editions and put them together. And It doesn't seem like they did a poor job on it.
At least, with my curiosity slaked, I can wait until November to get my own copies. ;) I'm really excited about running my own game again. However, 3rd Party Support is a very, very important part of D&D now. Don't let me down, guys.
Chakravant wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Out of every edition prior to this it was a toss up of 2X and 3X for me.
3E had tons of character options but few ways to very the system, and 2E had few ways to vary the characters and many ways to vary the system.
Seems like more than any othe edition 5E does both well. House rules are expected to a degree as well, which is nice. It has a "simple" version and when players grasp the system better they can expand and start making things more complex.
For me the PHB is the flag ship of each edition. If I liked that editions PHB I generally enjoyed that edition.
The current PHB has enough ways to vary character builds and play concepts than has ever been in one single PHB.(PHB 2s & 3s don't count) It rivals 3.5 splat books to a point. All with out having to have oak shelving units lining your room.
Out of all the PHBs the 5th edition PHB seems like it has been the best bang for the buck.
I can only hope the DMG will be just as good, if not better.
I looked, I saw, and I do not like 5e. The DMG will not be able to fix my dislike of the game because there is so much I dislike why would I bother when there are other games that fit me better. My groups will not even look they have bailed on WotC since it appeared WotC bailed on D&D with 4e. It wasn't just that 4e was so not their game it was the closing down of the ability to get the older games in PDF form that happened at the same time as the release of 4e. It seemed that WotC was aggressively looking to drive off the older player and that it did, and some will never look again at it as long as members of the 4e dev crowd are still there. Also truth be told 5e to me seems more based on 4e then any other edition that's how I see it, that's why it's not for me.
i am not saying 4e is not D&D I am saying it was not our D&D and not a play style we wanted. I am not saying 5e is a bad game, it just isn't for me. I wish it well and I wish all those who play it years of happiness and enjoyment with it.
Well, rock-paper-scissors is the BASIC game...If you want the ADVANCED game, you gotta try rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock.
Tons more options there.
Centauri wrote:
I think the disconnect happens due to the difference between the ahrd core players playing 3.x games and the way the casuals play it. Most groups I have encountered over the years do not use wands of CLW for example in 3.x games as they do not visit forums and at its most basic the wands are just another item in the magic item tables.
Can 3.5 be broken? Yes and easily so. Not every 3.x game is broken though or in some cases it may even be considered a feature as it can be fun I suppose. If you play mostly low level games or have a critical hit fighter build into the mid levels the fighter is still a fun class and in Pathfinder you can be dealing something like 2d6+1d12+20 damage by level 6 or so.
Its like AD&D, is a level 18 wizard more powerful than a level 18 fighter (or 20 with the xp tables)?. I would say yes, how many games are actually ruined by that level 18 wizard? Around about 0.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Is there an SRD in the works? I know the pdf of basic rules is online, but a searchable website with many links makes a game so much easier. I have read through the PHB a couple of times and every time I am jumping from section to section thinking I need a search function. That could help the game get some traction both for being user friendly and getting people hooked before they buy.
Personally I am looking forward to starting organized play for 5e next week. I loved PFS, but am very much ready for a change.
Can we try to NOT get this thread locked?
I'm sold on 5e, but I have friends who LOVED early 4e and began to lose faith with Psionics and the Essentials breaking the AEDU balance-math for the sake of other structures of getting class features and using powers in mid-late-4e, and see the turning back towards various parellel, separate levels of powers as backwards and problematic for balance and, to these friends, fun. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to get said friends to play more than a single game of 5e with me, considering (and even one game is pushing it… speaking of hard sells).
ooSitrioo wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
I do not get all this talk of "converting" people like this is some kind of religion. I'm going to play D&D and Pathfinder!
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
I have to be honest. I dig 5e. so far. I didn't expect to like it, I don't particularly like WOTC's buisness practices or any version of the game they have produced up to now. 14 years of disappointment has conditioned me to be standoffish.
But Here I am anyway buying the product and finding that I am truly happy. I already own: The Starter set, the Players Handbook, and the Tyranny of dragons Module. I am a returning customer who did not like 3e. very much and never even played 4e. I distain Pathfinder for it's needless over complicated nature in the favor of "Options" or (Player entitelment) one might say, and it's current level of Bloat has driven me to abandon it after little over a year of part time play. Iv'e spent the last 26 years playing TSR Era AD&D and enjoying myself. I gave P.F. a try due to friends telling me it was a "fixed 3.5" and asked me to give it a shot. After playing it for it while I decided that I liked 3.5 better as a wotc product. (not much at all) lol. The current edition of the game I play tested, witnessed wotc listen to me as a gamer, and give me what I asked for. How could I not enjoy having my playstyle embraced, and my requests met? This game feels like unto the 3rd edition I wanted back in 2000. I'm all in. So I am a lapsed customer, now a returned fan after 14 years. To me this says alot for the potential of 5e. Only time will tell how well it sells to the rest of the gaming world. The important thing in my case is: They will sell it to this gamer. I'll vote for it with my pocket book. 
Honestly, I'm sort of startled this thread hit 72 posts (and counting?) because I really couldn't make heads or tails of what the OP was trying to say.
We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.
Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
Cennedi wrote:
Some salient points here.
WARNING - what follows isn unapologetic illustration of some shared OPINIONS - I am not interested if you disagree with them, I am illustrating a present reality commonly experienced between a sizeable group of older gamers and you disagreeing with their point of view is entirely beside the point. Please don't derail the thread telling me the group I am talking about are 'wrong' - it's what they think, it's not going to change, and it's relevant to the thread, which is the ony thing that matters here.
Anyway...
I have a friend who is an RPG fanatic who cut his teeth on D&D and loved 2nd and 3rd editions.
He also loved pre-Spellplague Forgotten Realms and although he has a great preference for playing, that was the gameworld that encouraged him to DM. He has read all the novels set there (with some recent and notable exceptions...) and proudly displays his hardbacks of each and every book in his roleplay room on a special bookcase set aside just for the Realms.
We are talking a fan here...
4th Edition came out and we all had a great deal of faith in WotC. Everyone around the table bought the 3 core rulebook set.
We had a 9 hour Saturday session to kick off and came out of it with a very bad taste on our mouths. It even caused an argument between two old freinds who couldn't understand how the other was straight-jacketted into certain actions because of the system. He though the other player had chosen to do it, and had fragged the party because of it. If memory serves it was something to do with the unnavoidable positioning of burning hands and how this left the wizard out of position for a critical heal - but my memory is fuzzy...
Anyway, since then, he, and most of the group don't play D&D at all.
I have just finished a RuneQuest 6th Edition game with them and gently suggested I run Phandelver now the PHB is out.
I am having a very hard time selling the idea. If it wasn't for their trust in my GM'ing skills and the fact we've all been friends for decades it really wouldn't be flying at all...
4th Edition burned a whole group of my friends - who almost universally complained it turned their D&D into a second rate paper-based MMO without the freedom to roleplay or be creative either in combat or indeed outside of it.
Despite my assurances that everything has swung back to RP over brainless grid-skirmish gaming and cookie-cutter power use rotation, and my illustrations about how the mess made of Forgotten Realms has been fixed and a century of campaign time has gone by to embed it, they are still tentative.
So - in my experience, yes - WotC have a hard sell this time around to get the fans of yesteryear to come back, because even though I am working on their behalf with a friendly 'client group' (without commission I might add...) I am still hitting significant resistance.
I only hope with time that the qualities of 5th Ed. leave the legacy of 4th a distant memory with my players and I can get them all to embrace it all without reservation once again.
Atheosis wrote:
Atheosis wrote:
My take on this topic:
My D&D history:
I started playing D&D about 1986 with BECMI. I loved it. Many options, easy to adapt. We had tons of fun. AD&D ... not so. Made things more complicated without giving anything back. Bored us. Then 3rd edition came out and everybody was buzzing about it. We hated the guts out of the rules. We really thought Wizards had lost their mind. Although a lot of really great settings arrived and everything looked just gorgeous, we were fed up with D&D. Wizards got us back with 4E, which was really amazing. Especially the essentials line and Gamma World are pure gaming gems in my opinion. Easy, balanced, inspiring and we (at least) had less trouble playing without a grid than with 3.X (damn those AoOs). But suddenly that line was discontinued and the lack of third party support left us disappointed. All this is a personal and highly subjective experience of mine and my gaming group.
Now 5E:
Some people say it is a lot like 3.X. I beg to differ. It reminds me a lot of BECMI, which I still play today and which is a good thing. 5E as I see it has some shortcomings. It could use some more streamlining and the presentation is just like the 4E player's handbook rather ... bad. But it is still a good gaming system, highly adaptable and with lots of brilliant ideas in it (Wizards, take care your foot doesn't fall off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXAy65hXIiE). I could like it and I will buy it. It all depends now on the support. Will we see good settings for it? Will we see good city-descriptions, inspiring adventures and stuff? What I would really love is seeing some new D&D modern and ultra modern and third-party-products.
The base is solid. Not really mind boggling inovative, but I don't need that. A fast and solid base is all I want from a gaming system. Now give me the new stuff! Not new rules, but new stories, genres, settings and twists! Make me have use of it! Make me inspired by it! Then I will buy it.
Well, that's about my point of view. Sorry for my bad orthography but I am not a native speaker.
I'm starting to think that 5e is a "Rorschach" edition - what people see in it depends even more on their background than other editions do.
People who actively dislike WotC for whatever reason see either 3.5 or 4e, whichever they like less.
People who are neutral or positive toward WotC see the edition they started with, except running better.
I've also had a hard time selling 5e to the groups I've played in recently.
Most of them are assume that 5th edition is another 4th edition and for that reason they've chosen to remain clueless. When I try to educate them they seem interested, but I'm not convinced they will give it a try. The powergamers who have found their home with 3.5e and PF are certainly not going to enjoy this edition because there is no option candy for them.
The other day I made the mistake of mentioning the resting rules and that caused everyone in my PF group to laugh at the edition and declare it to be ridiculous. Some of them asked if healing surges had been removed. To make a long story short, I'm now going to wait for the DMG before I do any more 5e apologetics.
cennedi quoth:i do not get why people have a problem with thac0? thac0 is, in my experience, no more complicated than 3.x style to hit and in no way breaks immersion or hinders storytelling. while i agree with you that 3.x and PF can get tiring, for me because of rules bloat, I do not think 5e will be any diffferent. i would wager it will be worse by the time this is all said and done.
I wasn't playing when 3e came out...I quit during 2e, and picked back up with 3.5 and 4e. I actually discovered 3e through great video games like Neverwinter Nights, and met some table top players shortly thereafter.
I assume people hated 3e for a while too.
Also, anyone who thinks 5e is like 4e is...well...uninformed on the topic.
But it is true, many gamers, and people in general, stubburnly stick to what they feel they have 'mastered'. No. Matter. What. Remaining open minded, especially as you start getting old, is important, IMO.
Someone said earlier in this thread about Pathfinder outselling 5e on Amazon, but I just checked. 5e PHB is #2 on the All Books list, and PF core is #3159 on the All Books list. 
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
Rottle wrote:
Rottle wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
seti wrote:
Guroth_the_Forsaken wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
I get the options thing. I always want to see what other people's ideas are. As far as the money-grubbing idea, I'm not sure I understand. If there is a quality product, that is complete and well thought out, isn't it worth your money? Culturally, we seem to heading down a road where you get. "Look at that awesome thing! Too bad it isn't free, as well." Look at FFG as an example. Their games (both board and rpg) are around $50 a pop, a standard now, but are quality products (and yes there will be exceptions). Their rules, art, and writing (editing aside) in their 40k series of books, I found well worth the money. Wizards, I think is going this route. I think some of us who remember picking up our 3rd ed books for $20 a piece don't think it was that long ago, and get bitter that it's so expensive. That attitude can be a bit poisonous. If they wanted money, wringing hands and cackling, I don't think they would have crowdsourced the material like they did. That has all the signs about a company that realized they made a marketing mistake, and are taking great aims to fix it.
Maybe I'm a little late to the conversation, but hey...
And no, it looks very little like 2nd ed, with what I started, and thank God for that.....just because it's old doesn't make it good or bad. Nostalgia is often riddled with rose colored glass.
Mistwell wrote:
Rottle wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
kev777 wrote:
I haven't found it a hard sell at all with a group of mostly veterans. "Hey, who wants to play 5e?" *MANY HANDS*
It's not the system that matters so crazy much anyway, folks. It's the adventure. If you're happily chugging along with your current system, I can't see any reason why you should feel forced to buy heavily into 5e. (Maybe the PHB becuase you like RPGs in general and are a D&D vet, so it makes sense to have a copy as a collector.)
I personally have seen what they've done and I like it more than 4e (which I bought into for the core books of PHB/DMG/MM and PHB2, as well as a spare PHB/PHB2 set for the table and played a handful of times) because I see in 5e an attempt to let the rules move out of the way a bit more than they have since 1e/2e, which were the systems I played heavily when I was younger.
D&D and I are the same age. I turn 40 in September. For me it's the RPG. I have played scores of systems and read/purchased many, many, many more. But D&D is where it always comes back to for me, and so 5e was more of a foregone conclusion than a possibility.
All that remains to be seen now is how it feels in play, and if that "getting the rules a bit out of the way" thing I'm picking up on results in the quicker play I expect it will.
Mistwell wrote:
Rottle wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Rottle wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Lord_Kyrion wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
kev777 wrote:
Rottle wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Rottle wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Cennedi wrote:
Rottle wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Wow has this thread gone off topic...
because my not so friendly gaming store has it wrapped in plastic and when asked did they have an open one that I could look through. I was told "we are not a library." $50 bucks is too much to discover that I don't wanna play the new edition.
Mirtek wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Really for me 1e was different enough from 2e that I never really switched. I didn't see 2e as improving anything I thought needed it, only changing or messing up things I liked. The one area I really hoped they would look into was psionics but they didn't for a long time by the time they did I didn't care. I don't hate 2e but if given a choice between 2e and 1e I choose 1e every time. I like both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, sometimes I think FR got nuts but I like it all the same. I really enjoyed the heck out of under ilfalan built a massive campaign around it and water deep and had a great time. Best part of 2e was how easy it was to convert to 1e.
I guess its it's best summed up by some people juggle geese. I prefer coke flavored geese over Pepsi.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
jwill9311 quoth:because my not so friendly gaming store has it wrapped in plastic and when asked did they have an open one that i could look through. i was told "we are not a library." $50 bucks is too much to discover that i don't wanna play the new edition.
Ed Greenwood comments: Laughable the ignorance there. AD&D 2nd ed. was authored by David "Zeb" Cook. Further more Drizzt is based on the Drow from the Unearthed Arcana, a 1e. book which made drow elves a playable race. "The Crystal Shard", the first book with the Drow Ranger was released before 2nd ed. came out in 1987. All of this prattle has nothing to do with the thread topic or 5e. 
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Ive been waiting for 5th edition to come out and was part of the beta would have been more help if the group I play with wanted to test it out. To be honest the lat time I played was back in the 90's which I think was 2.0 and got back into it in 2010 and heard nothing but how bad 4th was but always wanted to try it from 1st level but of corse that was shot down. So now 5th is comming out wich is good I can finally start a d&d game for 1st level.
The only thing I don't get is why they don't release it all at once, The starter set first then all the main books(players,DM's and Monster Manual ) a month or 2 after that instead of scattered relases?
Brightmantle wrote:
I have to agree, the 2nd Ed ranger blows chunks compared to the 1st Ed (love the 1st Ed ranger, drips with vibe), but, aside from clerics, all the classes kind of did, just the system got cleaned up.
And they took away my beloved monk in the PHB!
As for 5th Ed, it is looking a bit like the 3rd Ed I wanted back in August 2000.
Brightmantle wrote:
blake_marlowe wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Rottle wrote:
jwill9311 wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Alright, a few thoughts here. First about my experience at Gencon and how it may apply to "selling" the game. Second, my thoughts on the system. Third, what'll be interesting going forward.
First, Gencon was amazingly fun. The games ran extremely well. I'd say that from what I saw that a clear majority of players brought characters, but there was a fair bit of people playing pregens in the various groups. I ran into a number of DM's and players who had been primarily, or equally, playing pathfinder the past few years but seemed to be extremely excited about the prospect of focusing on 5th. I think 5th is going to appeal to a portion of the Pathfinder audiance but not all. There's likely some within that group that are *D&D* fans, and the chance to come back to an edition of "their" game that they like will be attractive. There's also likely some within that group that are going to feel, similar to 3e players did towards the end, that the game is just getting so awash and filled with options and filler that they want something cleaner and more streamlined. However, there's definitely going to be people who are going to be tough to transition off of it. I think with people who simply walked away from playing, as opposed to moving to pathfinder, the "hard" part of selling will be to actually get them to play a game. I think IF you can get them to play that it'll go well.
My favorite thing though? The VAST majority of games I played were theater of the mind, and that worked extremely well. It lookedl ike that was the case for many DM's, with many doing TOTM primarily but having a board ready for a BIG fight. This was greatly contrasted from when I walked through pathfinder and it was the opposite and EVERY table had a battlemap and miniatures setup on it. While you oculd do TOTM in 3e, this system felt like it was the cleanest and simplest to run with TOTM since 2nd and I was very happy to see it work so well.
Second, I love the system. One of the neat things I noticed at Gencon was that it seemed it was always compared to each persons favorite edition prior to 4th. I heard it felt a lot like 3e, a lot like a properly updated 3e, a lot like 2e, etc. I also ran into some 4th ed players that liked it, though the majority of the 4e players I met seemed to find 5th ed to be the farthest from "their" idea of D&D. This versatility of how it presents is great, because it speaks to the amazing thing about this system.
The core of it is VERY simple and straight forward, which is wonderful. It's easy to pick up and just dive into. Yet at the same time it already does seem to have a number of options and ways to dive deeper into it. Add to that the promised modules in the DMG and you're going to have a very customizable shell to put upon a very simple foundation, which is WONDERFUL in my mind. Want a closer to 2nd edition game rules wise? Limit some of the races, disallow feats, limit some of the sub-classes for various classes (or some classes all together), and think of backgrounds as Kits. Want a closer to 3rd edition game with lots and lots of options for reaction? Give everyone a bonus feat at 1st, and instead of a background let people simply pick and choose the skills/tools/ability.
The system is extremely elegant. It's really the best way I can describe it. It feels very powerful and wide ranging in regards to what it can do, while at the same time it never feels extremely intrusive or difficult to grasp. There are very few systems or features that are overly complicated or difficult to figure out and so much of it is very straight forward.
Personally, I don't want a system with umpteen billion core "options" of all different sorts shoved into my PHB with 50 classes and 400 weapons and 10,000 spells or on and on. I like my core rules to be simple, straightforward, and flexible to create a sound and robust foundation that can THEN be expanded upon. And I feel they've done this wonderful with 5th.
Finally, it's going to be interesting to see how the next few years go in regards to the growth of D&D. The size at Gencon will be a good example of this. This year it was apparently an increase in size for D&D compared to the past little bit. The various DM's I talked to suggested that the space and amount of people playing had increased this year compared to the past few. Over the past 7 years of Gencon the size of the D&D contingent there has decreased (not surprising given the rift caused by 4e along with the rise of a clear and direct rivel in the same stylistic space with pathfinder). Still, the Pathfinder location was FAR nicer, FAR larger, and with far more BIG organized play events. Over the next two to three years it'll be really interesting to see how D&D market's itself and grows, and how the interplay between Pathfinder and 5th edition progresses.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
seti wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
I thin 5e is a fine game, and may sell well. The trouble is having a reason to play dnd after i finally burned out on 4e, and gave up on 3.5e. I'm just not sure if DND 5e is really going to replace WHFRP (the older version not the FF one) or Savage Worlds, or Burning wheel. The verdict is out for me, at least. That being said, wotc is powerful, can throw a lot of marketing weight around, and DnD is, well DnD. So I am hopefull for the new edition, though i think WotC's failure was not porting the star wars saga system into fantasy. Saga was, in my opinion, what 4e should have been. 5e seems a lot like a 3.5 reboot, and i am not sure that is enough to garner lots of converts.
It's number one on Amazon right now.
Zardnaar wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
kev777 wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
tia quoth:yeah... that's a terrible game store. a good one will let you browse books before you buy them, because looking at a book before buying it is basically the only competitive advantage a brick and mortar store has over amazon these days.
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
For me the "hard sell" is the price tag. I love 4ed, I despise Pathfinder ( I still acknowledge its probably the best product on the market, but I wont play it or buy it) I want to love 5th ed. but so far its just so dull. I wanted to be surprised and "wowed" off my feet by the most awesome edition ever, instead I got a good solid product. I cant/wont say anything bad about 5th ( the pricetag stings) but it just doesnt have anything that jumps out and says " this is the reason to change" I want more books, a monster manual ( dont care about a DMG, they are usually fairly useless to me) and I want a campaign guide. I think once those products are available. then there might be that "wow" factor. but right now, its just interesting enough to get the PHB ( the starter was very meh to me) and wait for the goodness to flow. If it doesnt, well I still have my beloved 4th.
The_Jester wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Frank's a great guy. I'm glad to be a fellow member at a site that he calls home. The man is just plain down to earth and a genuine gamer. He is a stand up guy and I think it took huge nuts stand up against pog after it ousted Gary. Here's to you ExTSR ! 
"Like A Boss"! 
Damn Frank Mentzer cookies.
caridhor wrote:
Diffan wrote: