Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Etdashou Aug 15, 2015 5:47:45	Hi all,   Let's start by saying that I love D&D and I have been playing since the Advanced D&D edition I bought when I was a kid. The only thing I was able to read at that time were the "Where's Waldo" books and because of D&D it made me read so much stuff, stories and adventures. SO D&D is an important part of my life and that is why I am creating this thread. Its because I love D&D and I can only hope that this text will reach anyone working for D&D.   So the subject is: Table of Content, Index, Appendix, etc. They missed so much content, its flabbergasting.   I think the best example is the Monster Manual. Just compare the Table of Contents of the 5th edition MM to the one of Pathfinder Bestiary I (I as the FIRST monster book they made, not the third, fourth or fifth, the FIRST). It is practically a joke. I have a spell for my Wizard where I can Conjure Minor Elemental. How am I suppose to find all the elemental in the book if there is NO TABLE that list Monsters by type? Well... I need to flip every pages and note each monsters that are a type of "elemental". Why not include a table for that? And one for CR list? And by Roles? etc.   Oh wait... yeah. Please pay us another 45$ to buy the Dungeons Master book to get that 6 pages you actually need and that could have easily been included in the Monster Manual... Oh and don't forget that those lists will only be an incomplete "Monsters by Environment" and a much needed "Monsters by CR".   The Adventures Book is another example. And oh god prepare to disguise your book as a Christmas tree with all those post it because just forget about a useful table that list all the maps, creatures and NPCs description. Apparently no one should use this. When you reach an NPCs at chapter 4, you should really remember his wereabouts and description somehwere hidden in the chapter 2. Just tell your players that you need 5 minutes to find it again because one of your post it got off.   I could list a lot of other examples but I think you guys understand what I mean.   I also asked directly on their twitter feed my feeling about this and this is the answer I got: We released the CR table separately so people could have it as a reference and avoid flipping back & forth: http://ow.ly/Q8R48 Discussion: https://twitter.com/etdashou/status/625712425308975108 Now... just imagine the Brainstorming table when they were writting the MM book: "Hey guys, lets remove useful pages because players may flip too much our books and find stuff!!! Instead we will make them available only somehwere hidden in PDF documents and lets hope that every single customer we have will understand that." Seriously.... it is -impossible- that this was a logic decision. If someone here find difficult to flip pages, please let me know; I offer private courses at the low price of 40$ each. Less then the DM manual!   But after seeing the very thin and feature missing in Table of Contents, Appendix and Index.... after 5 edition of D&D... I am missing something here.   I hope this message will reach Wizard of the Cost staff and something will be done... Those books cost 40 to 50$ god d%?&*.....   Thanks.
#2 Mistwell Aug 15, 2015 9:34:14	Etdashou wrote:
#3 Grazel Aug 15, 2015 16:53:43	If you want indexes to help you find things then maybe try the link in my signature. This covers all the material they have out so far (other than the UA for psionics as I've not updated the published version of my indexes to include that article yet) in a spreadsheet that's sortable and lists the various sources with page numbers for things, even if they appear in multiple sources. As it's a growing, organic index that means as new material comes out it'll still be relevant. If they release a new elemental creature you won't have to look through a bunch of books to find them, you just sort on elemental monster type in the index and it'll list them all and where to find them. We didn't have such luxuries in the 1e days and since there's no rules compendium available from WotC it's up to the community to create such cross-book resources that by far trump any static index or chart in a book that is self-contained and can't be updated to include future source material.
#4 Etdashou Aug 15, 2015 19:52:56	Hi Grazel,   Thank you for this wonderful resource. This link is now in my bookmarks and thank you for that.     Hi Mistwell, I will take time to answer some stuff. I admit that I had some frustration after so many years of playing D&D and paying books with my hard earn cash.   Or, yah know, the free PDF they posted right after the MM came out that does that? Perhaps for you it is normal to request a paying customer to google a reference table. For me I find this really strange. Also I haven't found anywhere in the MM book a reference to this PDF.   I have no idea what book you are referring to.  It's not the title of a book I am aware of, at least no 5e book I am aware of.  Take any 5e edition Adventure Book (Princes of the Apocalypse, Rise of Tiamat, Hoard of the Dragon Queen). They miss reference for NPCs description, Maps page reference, Monsters page, etc. Most (if not all?) of 4e adventure book (Orcus Saga at least) are missing those vital informations. However, for 4e they were very linear so it was less of a problem. For 5e it is another story as they are like an "open world" which is very cool but as a DM can be a real challenge to keep up.   Hidden? etc. etc.  Looks likely - they mentioned they heard the complaint. etc. etc. I don't know. We simply don't have the same vision on that. I don't think it is normal to assume that everyone will buy all books. If I buy a book name "Monster Manual" I hope to have all informations about those "Monsters". And if every single customer should know about the PDF... then fine.   But a random post on a random section of their message board? Insane Post? Wow... Ok.   Random Post on a random section?... uh... ok. Here is the Forum title: PRODUCT AND GENERAL D&D DISCUSSIONS And the actual forum description: If you don't have a rules question, player, or DM question but instead want to discuss the products for the new edition of D&D, or just want to discuss a general topic of D&D like how cool kobolds are, then this is the place for you.   If there is another forum section please let me know.     I know my initial post was with some emotions, but after so many years (41 years D&D now exist, been playing on and off in the last 25) I am disapointed with the lack of reference in the books I buy. I hope they take a look at the Pathfinder MM as the Table of Contents have great ideas.   ALso, thanks again Grazel!!
#5 lawrencehoy Aug 16, 2015 5:13:53	Mistwell wrote:
#6 Etdashou Aug 16, 2015 13:41:56	Hi lawrencehoy,thx for the reply.   When I was about to post this thread and got a look at how I wrote it, I was aware that I won't gather much love. I'm happy to see the replies as it shows a healthy D&D fanbase. If my first post was "inane", than so be it.   I see this whole problem a bit like video games are released. Some comes with Mod tools and the community push some games in ways that the dev would have never imagined, which is extraordinary. But sometimes you see AAA RPG games with a poor inventory system and when some ask for a better inventory management you see the community tell you: "Stop &?%$/ing complaining and you know that mods will be done by someone to fix this".   I suppose that all I'm asking here is that with the 41 years of experience, countless books done, competitors with great ideads to get from and now the fifth edition released (with about 6 books now I think?); I am personnally surprised to see incomplete index.   If I must go and google PDFs or find resources from the community, so be it.     Initially the way I wrote my text wasn't the best, but at least I got some replies. Like Grazel who provided a link.   Thanks all.
#7 Grazel Aug 16, 2015 18:22:32	Etdashou wrote:
#8 Mistwell Aug 16, 2015 20:07:24	Etdashou wrote:
#9 Etdashou Aug 17, 2015 6:36:38	I admit the DnD insider website for 4e was highly useful. A bit pricey but now that I look back this website was always opened and used by our d&d party. So it was money well spent. And yes the Rule Compendium was nice also. I am still not sure about Fantasy Ground but I should definitly take a look at some Youtube videos...   Perhaps Wizard could host a wiki-like website where their team and the community could participate on the ongoing documentation. Not the whole books content but an easy to use section for books supplement.   Anyway, your tool does an excellent job for now and ill keep my post-its in my adventure books ;).   Ok Mistwell, I will stop mentionning how long I've been playing.
#10 Farland Aug 17, 2015 13:49:36	I do know that the index of the PHB is really bad.  I often feel like throwing my book when the index says "X? See Y?" i.e.  "Encumbrance... see carrying capacity." Like seriously, just put the page number.
#11 Artifact Aug 17, 2015 15:16:08	One reason why they might have included the 'Monsters by CR' pages in the DMG (rather than in the MM) is because the Monster Manual was already 'oversized', even before it went to print.     They wanted to top out the MM at 320 pages (just like the DMG and PHB) but decided at the last minute to add 32 pages (for Modrons I seem to recall).  No extra charge, just extra pages.   Why 32 pages?  Dunno exactly but publishers seem to work in 16 or 32 page segements.  The DMG had room apparently, the MM did not (it was already oversized).
#12 Grazel Aug 17, 2015 18:08:11	Artifact wrote:
#13 Greenstone.Walker Aug 18, 2015 20:11:18	Etdashou wrote: