Hey everyone. A quick thank you to Sébastien Gamache for helping put this into PDF format. Here are some Dark Sun homebrew rules for those D&D 5th Dark Sun fans on the forums.
The document needs a bit of editing on my part. As such, I will be, hopefully with Sébastien's help, putting out a new version post the release of the DMG. So, if anyone has any constructive feedback, I am all ears. I don't promise to listen. I am a grumpy stubborn curmudgeon of a man. But, I promise to at least give what you have to say a fair shake. 
Ath-kethin wrote:
Hey cyber-dave as I have said many times great job. Your work on dark sun and updating the rules has been a great help to me especially the Thri-kreen. I have one last question .Other than what I asked about on the dark sun boars regarding the clerics, which I did a search on the product you mentioned and you were right, ill hold off until that is released. My question is in regards to the gladiator, are you planning on doing a right up on this class (or sub class)? Or are you using the gladiator sub class that was presented in the playtest packet?
Really awesome work !
Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings. It is good to see material for use with 5th edition.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
jlpinli40 wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
What do you mean by the races didn't get higher ability modifiers?
Normally dwarfs would get +1 Con, in dark sun they got +2. Elves would get +2 dex instead of +1.
Also secondary and smaller stat bumps were also added for each of the traditional races (+1 wis to dwarfs, +1 to elves--if I recall it correctly from memory).
It's true that stat penalties were also doubled and added (elves would get -2 Con instead of -2) but the higher average scores in ability generation would more than compensate for those, and since 5e got rid of ability penalties for races it could be the case of just ignoring those as well and give all races a somewhat higher bonus than normal.
What you said, awarding stat increases during play can also work, but it sort of takes away that notion that the people of Athas are all made of sturdier stuff and give this benefit to the PCs only. It's up to you if this fits your idea for the game of course.
In my case I think I'd pick the standard array and add a +2 to every score, or maybe to the 3 highers scores. (17, 16, 15, 12, 10, 8 could work.) Then double the bonuses from regular races (and make the new races based on those modified standard races). For monsters I could still use the MM, maybe just use slightly higher CR monsters or more monsters of the same CR.
Huh. You are right. I just double checked. I didn't remember what the 2e race modifications were like. It has been years since I played 2e! In any case, since 5th doesn't make use of ability score penalties, I don't want to both double the races ability score bonuses AND increase the average stat scores. I think that is just too much. I think that leaving the racial ability scores in line with what is in the PhB, but increasing the standard array as we have been discussing, should be enough to get the point across.
Anyways, the people of Athas are supposed to be tougher because they have naturally adapted. I think that granting such adaptation as a reward should work for the game I am currently running. In the future, I will probably just start with a higher stat array. Right now, I am leaning towards 17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10 (+2 to each score across the board) and two bonuses of +2 each (which cannot be applied to the same score, but which can be traded for feats). I just want to get a better feeling for stats that are closer to existing 5th stats before I drastically increase the stats like that.
Yeah raising the base ability roll/array could do it.
You should probably also consider a limit of 22 for ability scores instead of regular 20 to reflect Athasian's higher potential (originally too they could reach higher numbers than regular D&D characters ever would from normal means, even only by rolling up to 20 instead of 18.)
For half-giants maybe an exception could be made to go up to 24 or 26 in Str because, well, it's a giant, and a "topped" one should be stronger than even the strongest human.
I like what you've done here. It fits into 5e and works well with what I want out of DS as a campaign setting.
But, I wouldn't use -1's and -2's for DS 'primitave' weapon damage. It's too fiddly, IMO. My preferred way of dealing with metal weapons being exceedingly rare and awesome is to just make them all magic. ie: any metal weapon/armor/item is, by default, +1 or better. (Unless it's just some random metal junk with no mechanical in-game use, of course.)
Now, if you were planning on having some crazy spelljammer/planescape/whatever PC's jumping from other D&D worlds to Athas and back, then the minuses might make sense. In a classical Athas-only campaign, it's just another layer of too much extra math. Also (IMO of course), psychologically, negative modifiers as constant and commonplace should be avoided.
I also think the thri-kreen and especially the half giant are a bit too powerful compared to 5e's race choices. I'd tone them both down. With racial feats, I can see them becoming 'awesome-ful' however. Racial feats is something 5e really needs, IMO.
I think you nailed the Mul pretty much just right, however.
At first glance, I like your defile/preserve mechanics too. Although I didn't re-read them yet, or try them out.
PS: The real test of a cool way to run DS in 5e will be when (and if) WotC publishes official 5e psionics. Also; when (and if) DS and the other non-FR settings are published.
seti wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
seti wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Yes, although I would say that's rather beside the point.
seti wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Yea... I like the 2e penalties, so I plan to keep going that route. I didn't like the 4e method of handling metal/non-metal weapons. So, difference of tastes on that count. I think that the horde of small penalties are, psychologically speaking, exactly what you want to impose with a Dark Sun game.
If you don't mind, would you please construct an argument as to how/why thri-kreen and half-giants are "overpowered?" I don't think I agree with you. The truth is, though, I won't really know whether I agree with you or not until after you construct and argument and we argue over whether that statement is true via a few back and forth posts. I don't often know what I really believe until I am forced to debate about it over print. I wouldn't mind hearing your reasons why/arguing over whether you are right or not in print. I might end up making changes. I might, as per my feelings about non-weapon penalties, just decide you are wrong. The process, one way or the other, would be a big help.
@cyber dave, hey I am actually using a good portion of your rules in game play last weekend. Yes the penalties were booed but they will get over it. I used the penalty to stress how finding a simple steel dagger is like finding a magic item, so that got them excited. I did use higher stats at character creation using +1 only because they can increase those at higher levels or take a feat option plus a lot of the races have and ability increase. I did raise the ability score caps level (to me this just was a given) as far as your write up of the ½ giant and thri-kreen I do not see any flaws with the races you updated it simply is in line with the setting. In fact I was going through MM when I first got it before I read your version, mine were even more supped up with multi attacks (thri-kreen). I did some changes to a few of the races like the half –elf, I also did a right up of the Aarakocra. As far as your defiling mechanic goes I used portions of yours and mine (metamagic effects). I can’t wait for another year or 2 for WOTC to get around to psionics, so I still writing that up and so far so good. You’re right concerning the gladiator much of what I was looking for is the weapon master path. I still what to come up with something for when they are in the arena and crowd’s reaction and how to apply penaties of bonus grated on his standing.
Just because it is Dark Sun, I don't want two character races to be more powerful than anyone else. If the half-giant and thri-kreen are actually more powerful than the other racial choices, I will find a way to keep their flavor but slightly tone them down. I will be honest though, I built them with a careful eye for balance. There are a lot of hidden checks and balances in those races designed to stop abilities that, at first, might seem very powerful from actually being all that great. The half-giant, meanwhile, suffers from the need to eat 4 times as much food as everyone else. In a survival themed campaign that actually plays up that aspect of the setting (as I do), that is a very big drawback.
Anyway, I will wait to see what Seti comes up with, we will shoot point/counterpoint back and forth, and afterwards I will be able to actually judge my own opinion on the matter. I will say, however, that I won't be increasing the maximum ability score cap for my campaign. That creates a cascading effect of problems. My rules impose a -1 penalty to hit with weapons but they also reduce the max AC of all armor types by 1. The result is that metal items pretty much become +1 magic items in the underlying game math. The presence of a penalty is purely aesthetic/psychological. (At least endgame. At first, AC is a little higher than attack bonuses in the games mathematical ratio. But, the bonus feat/+2 stat bonus I provide already helps offset that. I plan to give away at least one more bonus feat for sure. Between those changes, the penalty is completely offset. If I give away a higher stat array (which I am still torn about), characters will actually start with slightly higher hit ratio. I, however, digress.) If you raise the max stats, the hidden after effect of that change will be that light armor/unarmored defense characters will have a higher AC (by 1 point). Medium armor and heavy armor characters will have the same AC. In effect, you have just made light armor the best armor in the game (which was something the devs specifically changed after the playtest).
The bounded math of the game makes me wonder if characters should even be given a higher stat array. Part of me wonders if, as a result of the bounded math of the game, it might be smarter to just increase the stat array by +1 across the board (instead of +2 across the board): 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9. I am still on the fence in regards to that topic, which is why I didn't start my current group with a boosted stat array. I wanted to see how the game would play without it. I DEFINITELY, however, don't think that the game should include a general boosted stat cap. I think that would damage the integrity of the game's underlying math. If a stat boost is provided, it should help create more rounded characters, not min-maxed characters that break the game's corner cases.
Just my 2 cents.
Really nice work, Cyber-Dave. I haven't gotten time to read it through thoroughly, but eventually I will.
Best regards,
Rhenny.
Cyber-Dave wrote:
seti wrote:
I won't get into a big thing with you, I'm glad you love Dark Sun (also my favorite official setting, since its inception in 2e). We disagree in a few areas, but I would not storm away from your table if you were DMing me. I'd be happy to play DS with a group and DM that cared about it.
I like 4e balance, and I like the 5e almost balance of all race/sub-race combos getting +2 to one, and +1 to another. (I even consider the mountain dwarf a typo in the PHB, as that race/sub-race gets two +2's, IIRC.) I'd be ok with a +1 to three also. Or even a +3 to one. I just don't want to get into more than a +3 total. The Half-giant size is sufficiently expressed in using special big weapons, just for them, that do more damage and in the non-magical STR cap of 22, regardless of class or level or whatever.
I still like my idea of Thri-Kreen sub-races, and I'm wondering if you do too, as you didn't slam that idea/opinion 
.
I didn't know that your Kreen couldn't speak unless it was thier own language. In that case, sure...To communicate to any non-bug, yeah...The telepathy as you wrote it is needed. I still think a Thri-Kreen should have to know the language it's tele-communicating, however. Just because its mouth parts cannot form elven, common, etc. words doesn't mean it cannot understand it, hear it or have to learn it. Essentially, I don't want the Kreens just knowing all languages. That's stepping on spell territory, IMO.
I also don't know the 5e natural armor rules. It doesn't seem to have come up in the MM or PHB...Or, if it did, I missed that one sentence. In previous editions, it sometimes stacked, sometimes didn't, and sometimes was just /shrug/ left up to DM's to house rule. I'd be inclined to let natural armor work with monk and barbarian 'unarmored' benefits, though. I mean, logically, a bug-man with natural chitin would be used to it, and able to fight unhindered in their own skin/shell. It's not like a Kreen takes his exoskeleton off to sleep, make love, or expel waste. Or buys a new one from time to time. (See Dr. Zoidberg, Futurama, LMAO.)
The throwing thing for half-giants isn't that big of a deal, to me. But, why would they get a racial proficiency in tossing whatever junk at foes? Tossing rocks is a trait of their giant heritage...But all thrown improvised weapons literally covers anything thrown at an enemy for the purposes of doing damage in combat...To bring the Terrasque Face-palm Thread into this...Is a rock different than bread basket? Or a pie? I think so, dammit!!!11! Sorry for that.
Honestly, you seem to be someone who's put more thought and work into 5e DS than the WotC Dev team seems to have at this point ...I'm wondering how you want to handle the elephant in the room: Psionics.
My 'easy' fix that I've been mulling about with is just changing the class spell list in the PHB a bit. Also, I am waiting for the DMG and its reported 'spell point alternate casting system'. For example, Psions will use the spell point system. No one else will. Also, wizards and other arcane casters, for the most part, will not be allowed to use spells such as telekinesis, reverse gravity, dominate person/monster, hold person/monster, etc. I will reflavor cantrips like acid splash, fire bolt, etc. to do piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage for psionic PCs (reflecting that they use those to telekinetically shoot foes with random small objects at hand). On the other side, psionic PC's will have less access to spells that do elemental damage, spells that summon anything that does anything other than force or psychic damage...I want the 5e Psion to be the master of control/manipulation. In combat, I want the Psion to focus on force, physical, and psychic damage over fire, lightening, poison, acid, etc.
I'd like to get into psionic subclasses for rogues, fighters, and clerics...But...I don't quite know where to begin there. Reflavoring what already exists might easily be sufficient. Monks are already a psionic class, IMO. 4e declared them psionic-powered and, really 5e kind of makes them that too. Ki points? Casting 'spells' but differently? Hands and feet as 'magic' weapons at level 6+?
I really want the Psion to be different mechanically and flavor-wise, yet fulfilling the same 'roles', as the wizard/warlock/sorcerer however. IMO, in 5e the wizard is caster-king. I don't want to play a warlock or a sorcerer. Wizard, with all their options, damage, utility, etc....Well, they just rock. I want the Psion to be that cool, but again, noticably different enough that PC's who want to play the nerd, glass cannon, utility master, (or any combo there-in) of the party really give the Wizard vs. Psion a lot of thought in a DS campaign.
PS: do you see templars as Warlocks with a Sorcerer-king pact? I do. If you listed that in your PDF, I don't see it, as I don't have your DS PDF open right now.
Cheers! (I'm having a beer.)
seti wrote: