Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CaptainPicard Sep 05, 2014 15:39:34	Without starting an argument about historical accuracy, which is not the purpose of this thread, or anything related to real-world martial arts, I find the lack of any form of two-handed finesse weapon to be a concern, as I have had several players ask about it and they have found themselves unable to make characters fitting what they had in mind.   I have, however, heard some people claim that dexterity is overpowered, and this specific addition would make the situation worse than it already is, and I am trying to understand the reasoning behind this.   From my observations, strength based characters will have +1 AC over dexterity based characters, and will achieve their maximum AC without needing 20 strength.   Dexterity based characters do have a slightly lower AC, and need to invest in getting to 20 dexterity, however they will have a higher initiative check, as well as higher scores in more skills. Athletics, the one skill associated with strength, is very commonly called for, however Stealth is usually at least as good, so there is a clear advantage there. Dexterity saving throws are going to be called for more than strength saving throws, which are very rare.   Dexterity-based characters certainly have more advantages, but in a game like this, I cannot underestimate the impact of -1 to AC, and the fact that it will be some time after strength-based characters acquire plate armour that dexterity can feasibly hit 20. I remain unconvinced that dexterity-based characters are actually better overall than strength, as the AC advantage seems bigger than anything else dexterity offers.   I have some players who are very disappointed by the current state of affairs, however I also know some people who enjoy playing strength-based huge weapon characters, and while the two of them performing roughly equally is not a problem, I do not want the latter to be obsoleted. Can someone give me their insights on this, particularly in practice, or if I have missed something?
#2 Atheosis Sep 05, 2014 15:46:47	What would a two-handed finesse weapon be?  I'm having a hard time thinking of a weapon that would fit that description.
(Reply to #2) CaptainPicard	Atheosis wrote:
#4 Kalani Sep 05, 2014 16:00:12	Two-handed finesse weapons would theoretically break game balance, in the same way that a d10 finesse weapon would. Such a weapon would be superior to all other weapons in that category, and would invalidate their existence as a result. THWs are heavier, and deal more damage than finesse weapons. A TW finessable weapon would gain the benefits of increased damage, and finesse. This is abusable in the right circumstances - such as in the hands of a rogue.   Versatile and Two-handed properties are deliberately segregated from finesse weapons. There are balance reasons for this, due to the way such weapons interact with various rules elements from fighting styles, to feats, to sneak attack.   The only such example in the game is the monks Martial Arts feature, which allows them to gain the mechanical benefits of finesse when using monk weapons. With that being said, the Martial Arts feature does not treat such weapons as finesse weapons. Despite being mechanically identical, the finesse property is never added to these weapons for the purpose of other rules elements (eg. Sneak Attack).
(Reply to #4) CaptainPicard	Kalani wrote:
#6 Zardnaar Sep 05, 2014 16:35:53	I will try and explain it then. The dexterity based fighter is better than the strength based fighter in every way. Put simply they give up +1 AC (2AC at some levels depending on wealth) and in reurn they can use thier main stat to determine AC, damage to hit, missile and melee damage, one of the best saves in the game, 3 vs 1 skill and initiative to boot.    This is quite apparent with the sword and board fighter using a shield as the rapier and longsword deal the same amount of damage. The dex based fighter is just flat out better. -1 AC for all the other benefits dexterity provides    The 2 exceptions I was talking about are the two handed weapon fighter and the other one is if you allow feats from the PHB in the game (they are optional). A strength based fighter to max his AC out down't have to pump his strength to get a good AC. This means there is less pressure on pumping strength as much as dexterity and several of the strength based feats offer bonus attacks which are worth giving up +1 to hit and damage. Those feats are Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Master and Heavily armored may have some uses as well. The one thing the strength based fighter is better at is actually the handed weapon. Even wizards with 16 dex were using longbows over cantrips as they were once again elves. I had wood elf cleric,  high elf wizard,  halfling rogue, halfling (stout) fighters and 1 Dwarf when we played D&D Basic. Everyone apart from the Dwarf went dexterity and the Dwarf player admitted he should have been dex based as well.    If they had a two handed weapon that was finesse based that last advantage goes away. There would be almost no point in using a strength based fighter at all mechanically if a 2 handed finesse based weapon dealt d10 damage or more. I did not really see strength based characters at all until the PHB dropped everyone was taking dexterity based stuff even classes like the Cleric as my players were playing elves and going dex based using shortswords. The 2 handed fighter is also not doing any more damage than a dual wielding short sword user without feat or until around level 11 IRC. The out of combat utility of dexterity is a lot higher as well as you can make a half decent thief with the criminal back ground.    Additionally there is probably an element of realism in the game. There is no two handed lightsaber in this game and real life two handed weapons were mostly about brute power to get through armor (large axes, great swords etc), or to provide reach (pikes, polearms) and neither one would come anywhere close to being a finesse weapon.    Most one handed weapons are not finesse either except for modern dueling weapons like the Epee and Foil which would be useless in a battle field situation. The reason the strength based feats are so good is really to offset the unspoken acknowledgement that dexterity is overpowered.
#7 Kalani Sep 05, 2014 16:50:34	A finesse fighting style could easily work without disrupting game mechanics, providing it does not add the finesse property to the weapon.   The following example is perfectly fine and should cause no problems with game balance.   Swashbuckler (Fighting Style) When you wield a melee weapon in one hand which does not have the heavy property, and nothing in your off hand, you can add your Dexterity instead of Strength to the attack and damage rolls with that weapon.   This second example however, might cause unintentional problems when combined with other rules elements.   Swashbuckler (bad example) When you fight with a melee weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other, the weapon is treated as having the finesse property.
(Reply to #5) LongTimeLurker	You stated it in your original post, but it bears repeating that it's worth considering is that improving Strength carries somewhat less benefits to it than improving Dexterity does.   Strength heavy, two-handed weapons no effect on AC ~10 spell saves ~25 monster saves 1 skill short distance thrown weapons Dexterity lightweight, finesse weapons effects AC initiative ~45 spell saves ~10 monster saves 3 skills long distance range weapons (spell saves going off a rough count of "dexterity/strength saving throw" from the PHB, virtually all of these are save for half damage effects) (monster saves going off a rought count of "dexterity/strength saving throw" from the DM Basic Rules, virtually all of these are save vs prone effects)   In terms of damage effects from spells or monster abilities, almost all of them are dexterity save for half.  The strength checks are primarily against status effects such as prone or restrained.   Right now it's a trade off to go Str or Dex.  Granting Dex a two-handed Finesse weapon puts the advantage squarely in the hands of the Dex based character build.  Str based combat chars do have to care about dexterity to some degree, for initiative and save for half/none.  Dex based combat chars are virtually free to use strength as a dump stat.  The only disadvantage is in save vs prone attacks, as save vs restraint (and grappling) attacks generally allow save vs strength OR dexterity.
#9 Brock_Landers Sep 05, 2014 16:55:14	Atheosis wrote:
#10 Lawolf Sep 05, 2014 17:02:17	A two handed d10 finesse weapon wouldn't break the game. It would deal less damage than a Greatsword, but would give the player better initiative, skill checks, and saving throws.
#11 Brock_Landers Sep 05, 2014 17:09:33	Lawolf wrote:
#12 Orzel Sep 05, 2014 17:13:41	The main adantage of Strength is the +1 too AC the the acess to grewt weapon (for the best damage past level 5)   That's the issue. Before level 5, Dex based TWF deals the same damage as Str based TWF and more than GWF with better saves and initiative.   But level 5 and later, Str based attacking deals more damage and is enchanced by feats more.     A finesse two hander removes most of strength's advantages.
#13 CaptainPicard Sep 05, 2014 19:21:22	I think I'm going to encourage the character to take the Duelist style, use a rapier, and handwave the shield in some way with some defensive fighting style. Or have them block using the sheath like Vergil. Which is kind of what this character is, anyway. Barring feats, which I know the character would not take thematically, 1d10 with great weapon fighting is actually inferior simply in damage to 1d8 with duelist, much less when the shield is factored into things.   Thanks for the input, all.
#14 arnwolf666 Sep 06, 2014 2:00:45	Elven Curve Blade 2d4 Finesse, Heavy?  Maybe this would work?  not sure?
#15 Ramzour Sep 06, 2014 2:06:45	In my current game, the Half Orc Barbarian Gladiator (Entertainer) uses a spiked chain, which it just a reflavored Glaive with the finesse property (though he uses Strength anyway).      I think Kalani's idea is the best so far. Make it a Fighting Style, and possibly a feat. Kalani wrote:
#16 Iorwerth Sep 06, 2014 2:15:19	A possible finesse two handed weapon would be the 'long-scimitar' - similiar to the longsword, but in one hand is the same as a scimitar (D6,light, versatile) and in two hands would do a D8 rather than a D10. It is not as powerful as a longsword in two hands, and only does the same damage as a rapier used in one hand, but it keeps finesse and can use the feats and fighting styles that are usable with two-handed weapons.   I realize that is not as good as a great sword or a great axe if you want a pure two handed weapon fighter, but if you have a finesse weapon doing that much damage then it would be overpowered. The advantage of the long-scimitar over a great sword is that it is more versatile - it can be used for dual weapon fighting, fighting in one hand with shield or used in two hands.   I suppose you could have a Great Scimitar, which was finesse and two-handed and did a D10. Not sure if that would be overpowering or not. After all, the strength build who wants to use a great weapon would be doing more damage than the dex build using the Great Scimitar. It may impact on the longsword too much, however. Not sure really. To be truthful, however, I cannot see why anyone would build their character to use a longsword in two hands - if you are going to be fighting with a weapon in two hands, then it seems pretty obvious you are better off using a great sword or great axe. That being the case, i think the great scimitar would probably be fine.   So, if you used that, the strength builds would have:   Dual weapon fighting - shortsword D6 One handed sword (+shield?) - Longsword D8 Versatile one'two handed - longsword D10 Two handed sword - great sword 2d6   The dex equivalent: Dual weapon fighting - Scimitar/shortsword D6 One handed sword (+shield?) - Rapier D8 / Long-scimitar D8 Versatile one or two handed - Long-scimitar D8 Two handed sword - Great Scimitar D10.   With this you keep strength builds having higher damage weapons when using versatile or pure two-handed weapon than the dex build equivalent, but still making a versatile or two handed weapon finesse fighter a possibility - while doing less base damage, they have the advantages of a dex build, which have been pointed out above, and also get access to the feats and fighting styles that go with using a weapon in two hands.
#17 Captain_Kobold Sep 06, 2014 5:03:38	CaptainPicard wrote:
#18 Iorwerth Sep 06, 2014 5:56:17	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#19 Chakrum Sep 06, 2014 7:20:48	So a dex based duelist style with a rapier can compete in damage with a str based 2hnd style? Assuming both are using feats and stat increases to maximize potential all the way to 20. At higher levels I see trade offs, and the Str fighter pulls ahead in damage and survivability in melee aspects, whereas the dex build is better vs casters. I don't see either style dominating every situation. Isn't that a good thing to have viable variety for different builds?
#20 Kalani Sep 06, 2014 10:00:51	Actually, the math guru's have calculated the advantage of dual-wielding +TWF fighting style, and have determined that this is only equal-to (or slightly superior) to 2H weapons at low levels. Even without GWM, two-handed weapons start edging ahead in DPR as early as 5th level. This was by design however, as DEX-fighters trade higher damage for other benefits (better reflex saves, skills, & initiative). If you throw GWM into the equation, the DPR tips heavily toward the STR-fighter, especially during situations when they gain advantage to attack (as advantage offsets the attack penalty).
#21 Forgember Sep 06, 2014 10:15:10	I think it would be fine to add the Finesse quality to Spear and Quarterstaff.
#22 Kalani Sep 06, 2014 10:45:31	Adding the finesse property to such weapons would allow them to be used with Sneak Attacks. This may be an unintentional side effect. As I said above - the best solution is to make another rule which grants the benefits of finesse (Dex to attack/damage) without adding the finesse keyword.   A fighting Style is perfect for this.
#23 h347h50 Sep 06, 2014 11:32:02	CaptainPicard wrote:
#24 Chakrum Sep 06, 2014 13:32:27	That was my understanding. Yet some keep proclaiming dex builds as flat out superior when clearly they are not once you include mid to high levels and feats. I made a dex fighter (EK) high elf for thematic reasons as a throwback to the od&d race as class elf. It's a fun jack of all trades build but I'm under no circumstances superior to either pure fighters or wizards. I chose it for fun though and not min maxing. I played a half Orc champion before using a great axe and I can tell the difference, especially when I crit lol.
#25 Zardnaar Sep 06, 2014 13:51:52	Chakrum wrote:
#26 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 06, 2014 14:00:24	I'm not *totally* sold on the problems inherent in Dex being better than Strength. I mean it's better than Charisma too if you aren't a caster, I'm not completely sure that's an issue.   I *would* agree that allowing a weapon to get 2D6 or D12 damage and Finesse would make that weapon just plain The Best Weapon, and that's no good. I don't think a 1D10 Finesse two-hander would be so much of an issue - I might be inclined not to make it Heavy, since that would rule it out from benefitting from GWM (at least partly). Also, it seems intuitively strange for something to be "Finesse" and "Heavy" at the same time.
#27 Captain_Kobold Sep 06, 2014 18:16:36	Iorwerth wrote:
#28 h347h50 Sep 06, 2014 21:04:53	Zardnaar wrote:
#29 Iorwerth Sep 07, 2014 4:23:20	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#30 Zardnaar Sep 07, 2014 5:13:04	Iorwerth wrote:
#31 Iorwerth Sep 07, 2014 6:37:51	Zardnaar wrote:
#32 Lawolf Sep 07, 2014 11:14:26	Here is how I wish the weapons wrked   Step 1. choose damage type bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing   Step 2. Chose handedness 1 handed - d8 base damage 2 handed - d12 base damae   Step 3. choose abilities finesse - reduce base damage one step reach - reduce base damage one step thrown - reduce base damage one step ranged - reduce damage one step simple - reduce damage one step    note: I personally feel versatile, heavy, and light don't need to be properties.
#33 Iorwerth Sep 08, 2014 5:50:01	Lawolf wrote: