There's a new DMG preview up: poisons.
It also includes some diseases from the previous section. I quite like the look of cackle fever. Of course, most PCs won't suffer the full effects of a disease or a poison thanks to the existence of lesser restoration, but it's still fun to read through them and think of the possibilities.
I like that they've also included rules for harvesting poisons.
It's nice to see the game finally support a stance on poisons that isn't "you're probably going to poison yourself unless you have a specific class feature that almost no one gets."
I like the effects, the harvesting rules, and even the suggested costs (specifically because they are expensive enough not to be a constant part of attacks, but not so expensive as to be completely avoided).
I've always hated how they made poisons extraordinarily expensive, though I suppose that now since there are no magic items to purchase, you might as well spend your loot on poison.
Wow, I REALLY like how curing the diseases go in this edition. I very much liked 4E's "progression" table and stuff, but this is very nice, too!
I know it's not on topic, but it sorta is!
(also nice to see Herbalists get some love)
Yeah like everything I'm seeing in this preview. sweet!
Of note, we don't know how long a poisoned blade remains poisoned. We don't know if it's until the first hit, or one minute after applying, or what. So, while Purple Worm and Wyvern poisons are both really powerful, it remains uncertain whether it's likely to justify the cost.
For balance reasons I would rule one hit and it's gone, and an action to coat/use. Great for ambushes, but mid combat maybe less so, depending on the poison and situation.
Psikerlord wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Timborama wrote:
Elfcrusher wrote:
I think the poisons presented are meant to work like the basic poison found in the PHB, except with different damage, save DC, and other effects - which means lasting 1 minute before "drying out"
I think that is the intended case as well since the cost of each dose of poison would be a bit too steep to be worth it as a 1 and done affair - and the rule for applying basic poison even states that 1 dose can coat one weapon or 3 pieces of ammunition, so that gives some reason to allow a coated weapon more than one hit of added poison effect (unless your goal is to incentivise poisoning ammunition over other types of weapon).
As for the difficulty of harvesting poison - I think that goes hand-in-hand with only being able to harvest a single dose of poison per dead/incapacitated creature in the category of a rule not meant to resemble reality in any way, but entirely motivated by game-play concerns.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
So we're just going to ignore the teaser about madness variant for horror games? or have we talked about that?
FFSAA wrote:
tubadancross wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
While I'm not normally one to agree with FFSAA (who is?), they're absolutely 100% correct that the poisons being minute long would not just be game breaking, it would be game obliterating. Compare legendary magical weapons - which we've seen add 2d6, and perhaps might add as much as 3d6 on even more powerful items - to the Purple Worm venom adding twelve d6 with a (quite difficult) save. Even saving 100% of the time (and they won't) its twice as much added damage at 1/250th the cost.
I think part of the confusion comes from the different terminology that is used: the DMG talks about doses of poison, and the basic poison in the PHB is an entire vial of the poison (and the PHB lists a vial as a container that holds 4 ounces, 1/2 cup, of liquid). Ultimately, the answer will depend on whether the DM thinks a dose constitutes a vial's worth or enough poison to poison one creature.
FFSAA wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
I think I am tending towards the 'one hit and done' ruling as well.
Constitution is the highest save for monsters as you are going up in levels. Dc19 is going to be pretty easy by the time you are milking purple works regularly. Heck, the worm itself makes it on an 8. Average con at that level is north of 22.
What I want to know is can a Druid milk himself....
raleel wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Save check or poison damage, simple and fast. I like it more than previous poisons....mmmm I would like to recycle the 3rd poisons, from ability check penalty to poison damage.
How to create and customize your own poisons with the right gold-coins value?
MechaPilot wrote:
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
danyc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
We have poison dry out after a minute so that there is a reasonable time frame to apply it before combat. It's gone once used. IE up to a minute to use it once applied.
danyc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
ClockworkNecktie wrote:
Reading over basic poison it seems the precedent is pretty clear, but we'll see in a couple weeks when the DMG comes out. Until then I will rule that, like sneak attack, poison damag may be applied once-per-turn for one minute after it's application to a melee weapon. This means a maximum of 10-times the poson damage, making basic poison a viable option but not allowing 44X the extra damage on a big poison.
Otherwise, I can see no concievable way basic poison would ever be used.
tubadancross wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
I think when you consider that ingested poisons are one shot and the damage per gold is in line with injury poisons being 1 shot, it's fairly clear that injury poisons should only last 1 dose.
But I do think that the costs are way too high for the poisons. Paying 2k gold for 42 extra(21 on a save) damage pretty much sucks. A bless scroll will probably do more.
UngeheuerLich wrote:
Dracones wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
rookrock wrote:
I think one of the basic issues is that 5e skill rolls aren't well suited for a DC20 task across the board. It leads to situations such as a Rogue 12 with Expertise and a 20 Int being able to poison themselves 5% of the time where a Rogue 13 with just proficiency and a 12 Int being unable to ever fail. i.e. basically, only high level Rogues and Knowledge Clerics could ever hope to extract poison from anything consistently - and for them, it is too automatic.
I think the way the rules should work is the following:
Roll the poison's DC or lower - you poison yourself.
Roll the poison's DC+1 to +4 - you don't do anything
Roll the poison's DC+5 - you extract
This does the following two things:
Makes it a lot more difficult to harvest high DC poison than low DC poison - a common giant snake isn't anywhere as difficult as a purple worm.
Makes it a benefit to have Expertise, a high Int, and Reliable and no one of those is crucial to success against the lowest DC poisons.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
rookrock wrote:
I think the poisons are (for the most part) too expensive. I also think that about many 'down time' activities. It shouldn't take hundreds of days to make a magic item or learn a skill, for example.
Oh well. These things will change at our table.
Off topic, but I really like the subtlety of the note that gnomes are immune to cackling fever! It has a subtext and a funny one at that!
Regarding the examples of diseases, anyone else notice that the symptoms of these diseases do not manifest for at least one day, perhaps more? Mabye Contagion isn't overpowered against legendary creatures as has been suggested?
pedro2112 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Ah, white room theorycrafting at it's finest. Seriously, the "polymorph then farm" idea is completely unworkable. How did all y'all miss the "need to keep the creature above 0 hp or else the polymorph ends" clause? You won't be able to harvest anything from your purple worm, wyvern, or snake without it turning back into bits of the original creature. This is over an above the need to turn something just as nasty into whatever it is you're attempting to harvest. CR 17 critters aren't growing on trees.
However, what really needs to be clarified is--how long do doses of the inhaled/ingested/contact poisons last? The 1-minute potency suggested upthread doesn't really work for ingested poisons, since eating generally takes more than a minute unless yo're force-feeding them to the target. When you apply the 1-minute duration to doses of the inhaled poison, on the other hand, it becomes just as problematic, if not moreso, because you have the logical problem of "does this linger in the air in the square for a minute?" Thus, the 1-minute duration for injury poison seems specific to the basic poison.
pedro2112 wrote:
I like the poison farming idea. I can totally rip off the Jurassic Park storyline for that one. 
The_Stray wrote:
True polymorph works on objects and objects can be transformed into creatures with it. So basically you'd be tranforming a corpse into a purple worm, wait an hour for the spell to go permanent and then harvest.
Sounds pretty viable, though casters capable of casting 9th level spells have better ways to earn income.
What about traps with poisons? If poison is added to a trap, the "challenge rating" ought to be higher. What if the enemy is jungle goblins who use poison dart frogs for their arrows?
And now I would like a 5th 3d remake for poisons and aflictions from 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds.
Dracones wrote:
Poisons, when you get right down to it, are just like magic items. It seems that we're going for a "rare ingredient" approach to magic items and poisons and cures all at once, so that they involve side quests to acomplish.
Which is cool. Everything requires pacing and DM control, instead of players randomly deciding on getting their hands on something because of rules.
The_Stray wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote: