Hello everyone
I want to collect some opinions about the playabiity of the drow subrace in 5e (let's not make this thread a discussion about if the drow are cool or not...). I love playing drow (most of my characters in more than 20 years have been drow), buy I have only been in one 5e session, so I am wondering if the sunlight related disadvantage is a big issue... In a lot of character guides in these forums they mention it is a big hindrance, suggesting the subrace is not that enjoyable to play (I think it is the only playable race with a disadvantage)... what do you guys think?
I understand the sunlight sensitivity from a flavor point of view, but what about game balance? , I think the tiefling has similar abilities but no disadvantages.
Thanks
They do fine as casters. Since they saving throws arn't attack rolls.
Or, if your in an underdark campaign, it won't much matter.
They have a massive drawback and virtually no compensation. Imo the drow are obviously terrible from a mechanical point of view.
They're imbalanced because they're underpowered and thus they are broken.
Oh lawd. They're fine. Everything is fine. You're fine.
Considering it is direct sunlight that is problematic for them i say the drow are perfectly fine. Even a gloomy or stormy day takes away their drawback.
It depends on the campaign. They're great if you don't expect to fight in bright light a lot - Underdark campaigns, or games that take place mostly at night, etc. I would probably not pick one for a high seas adventure. Balance in RPGs is what you make of it, especially as a DM, but also as a player to a certain extent. Just work with your DM, ask how much you can expect Sunlight Sensitivity to get in the way in this campaign, and decide for yourself if that degree of interference would contribute to the kind of story you want to tell with this character.
Devils-Advocate wrote:
In dungeons they're great (I use roll20 and dynamic lighting, so my Drow player can see twice as far as everyone else).
He is also a Wizard which mitigates a lot of his disadvantages in sunlight, in *fact* he loves casting the sunlight spell. Ironic.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Just play a Drow Druid, then you can use Call Lightning and eventually Control Weather to make it overcast during combat outdoors. They obviously use concentration which is a drawback, but considering there will be plenty of times when you fight inside, underground, at night, or in dense forests does the drawback seem like that big of a deal? You can also play a warlock with Devilsight and use Darkness to overcome the disadvantage. Get creative.
I almost always play gnomes and I love that they have a drawback (Penalty if using heavy weapons). Sometimes restrictions like this allow creativity to flourish imo. Instead of always using the go to best option or always blasting your foe into the ground you might /gasp have to talk your way out of combat when the afternoon sun is glaring down on you!
slumgum wrote:
Sunlight Sensitivity is an absolutely crippling drawback when it comes into play, if you don't use saving throw abilities, and while the Drow gain some things other races don't, I feel that even if they did not have Sunlight Sensitivity at all, that they would not become a dominant option over other, similar races in many roles.
Comparing Drow to Wood Elf, without Sunlight Sensitivity:
+/- Charisma bonus instead of Wisdom; probably slight advantage Wood Elf most of the time
+/- Different weapon proficiencies; probably slight advantage Drow most of the time due to whips and hand crossbows being good backup weapons
- 5 feet slower
- Cannot hide when lightly obscured by natural phenomena, even underground
+ 60 extra feet of Darkvision
+ Spells; Dancing Lights is not very useful and Darkness is very situational. Faerie Fire 1/day is the big one here, I think
I don't think this is an overwhelming difference between the two, omitting Sunlight Sensitivity entirely.
That said, the guides really overestimate it, given it's almost entirely contingent on DM fiat and the campaign setting. A Drow character can definitely be effective if the DM is willing to be supportive. Personally, however, as a DM I find SS annoying, since I always need to keep it in mind and the effects it has on the character and the group when I design encounters. I would prefer if it either didn't exist or was far less crippling.
I haven't played one, so I cannot speak directly to their (un)playability.
But, IMO, D&D has too much darkvision. Races/species who have no logical reason to be able to see just fine in pitch blackness are just too common. My cat, for example, does not have darkvision. She has low light vision.
I say, bring back low-light vision for almost all creatures that don't live 100% underground/underdark.
Darkvision creatures should be punished in bringht light/sunlight. Just like regular vision and low light vision should be punished in total darkness.
In fact, I might switch many creatures to (not drow) low light vision again. I did that for 3x, didn't have to so much for 4e.
Also, when I DM (most of the time) I hate having a mixed party of vision types. It means they always have to carry light sources, which logically would make them super suseptable to ambushes while adventuring in darkness. Either that, or don't use lights, and half (or more) of the party is a disadvantage to almost everything. I've hand-waived light sources so many times, it's not funny. Mainly because it gets annoying to track it. If it's important for building tension, etc. then I deal with it (usually by making it DARK, so the PC's are scared, lol.)
PS: 60(almost everyone with dark vision)/120( for drow) feet is also arbitrary. So...your vision just cuts off at less than the lengh/width of an average North American suburban home? Wierd.
seti wrote:
Wield a parasol.
Yeah but then you just close your eyes. You're still at disadvantage for your rolls, but you look like a badass. With a parasol.
Or be a blind Drow, and still kick ass.
bawylie wrote:
ConsumedReality wrote:
The game is more then about stats and who is more powerful then someone else. It's about character and I think it is something that got lost in the mmorpg tabletop age (3ed+)
Thunaer wrote:
seti wrote:
I don't think it's bad or good to focus on more mechanics or on more role playing.
Everyone can agree that it's a thing to be decided by you and the people you play with.
On the issue of a game system seeming to support stat optomization over everything else (ie: 4e) or supporting RP over everything else (Fiasco)...Well,. that's just products catering to audiences.
IMO, at least a system that seems to push crunchiness to the forefront, like 3e or 4e, can still be a RPed to hell and back. Unlike say, FIasco...Which cannot be stat, score, dice roll, etc. optomized at all.
In conclusion; I prefer a TTRPG which has a robust mechanical framework, so I (and my group) can decide for ourselves how much role playing vs roll playing we want to do.
I think the Drow are fine as is, though, I'm tempted to house rule Drow and provide them with proficiency with parasols. The disadvantage with sunlight is old school, I love it. It keeps them forever connected with the Underdark. There's plenty of situations where it won't impact the character, and in those situations where it does, embrace it, roleplay it, roleplay the Drow's relief when the Drow is in a shadowy corner of a tavern, or the Drow's comfort under a bleak, overcast day. There are so many adventures in caves, edifices and dungeons that I don't see it as persistently detrimental to play over the course of a campaign arc.
There's also items (see: Inuit snow goggles) that are non-magical, and easy to appropriate into a D&D campaign with drow on the surface.
I don't want drow balanced, I want them to be NPC's that strike terror into the PC's. I want spells to crumble in their presence, and players to scream running in the opposite direction. I want them evil, tenacious, feared, intelligent, and crafty. I want HP Lovecraft to fail a horror check against the Drow. Do that and you could bever balance them as a PC race, but you would have a monster worthy of the name.
I've briefly considered playing a Drow, but to be honest the drawback seems extreme to me and I don't think I could enjoy playing a character like that most of the time.
Who here has played a Drow and how did the experience go for you?
The drow drawback is only as bad as your DM makes it for you. Ask your DM how keen he is on it. It also depends a lot on the other people in your party; if you have a ton of humans it'll be a fight between whether you're at a disadvantage or they are.
That said, I can't help but feel like that drow don't have any advantages strong enough to balance the disadvantage they get.
I think it would be neat to experiment with house rules giving drow some form of magic resistance to balance the sensitivity. Something ilke: spend your reaction to resist any spell cast with you as a target. Roll less than 6 + your character level on d100. On a success, you are no longer a target of the spell.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
seti wrote:
You could ask your DM if he would let your drow be adapted to life on the surface, losing his sunlight sensitivity but also reducing his darkvision to 60 feet.
who wants to play drow anyhoo. too 80s.
It depends on your DM. If you play in an area with lots of forests, then he can make sure that you always find a tree to stand under.
lawrencehoy wrote:
The problem is the Drow have a draw back and the racial bonuses are not any better than the other races.
A couple others brought it up already, but it bears repeating: sunglasses.
I don't know how a DM could justify not allowing a surface dwelling drow PC to acquire/craft/commission some eye protection. I would think mitigating his greatness weakness is the very first thing a drow would do upon leaving the underdark.
Psikerlord wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
I don't agree with your opinion on the ability scores. Chairsma is vital for bards, sorcerers, and warlocks, and is also more important than dexterity in a campaign where social interaction happens more than combat. I also don't think advantage against charm and magical sleep equals fire resistance, as fire damage is far more common, but when the elf traits are combined with weapon training I think it does balance out against fire resistance.
That would leave the sunlight vulnerability having to balance out proficiency in perception and the extended darkvision range. I don't think it quite does, as exposure to sunlight is highly variable between campaigns and adventures. Being underground, inside, at night, or having overcast skies means it doesn't apply. A drow has it made if they find an adventuring party willing to rest during the day and travel at night, which should be easy to do if they avoid travelling with halflings, humans, and dragonborn, as those three races are the only ones without darkvision. This could also give such a party an edge if going up against creatures/humanoids without darkvision, as their opponents would either need light sources or eat disadvantage while the party doesn't care unless they need to read something.
Of course, mountain dwarves are also pretty powerful, being the only non-human who has 4 bonus ability points, proficiency in some good weapons, proficiency with light and medium armor, resiliancy against poison... One who becomes an arcane caster has distinct advantage over other races by having an okay melee option and good AC right off the bat. Compared to drow they look pretty good as well.
So, if anything, your comparison makes more of a case of tieflings being a weaker class than drow being overpowered.
Silarey wrote:
During a playtest campaign I ran, one player played a Drow assassin. She was very powerful in dungeons and underground. Darkvision 120 helped sneak and scout greatly and innate spells did get the party out of a few jams. Additionally, the player liked the challenge of playing with disadvantage in daylight. It added to his experience.
EzechielDantan wrote:
Well if your players are big fans of the handicap system that's great for them, however speaking purely from a balance/design standpoint the idea that penalties mitigate powerful abilities is garbage in this kind of game, and the whole bit about handing out race benefits at higher levels is also a bad idea. If the ability is too potent to be handed out at level 1 with the other abiltieis of the race it's probably too potent for a standard 5e race anyway.
I'm not sure where the drow ends up on the final powerscale but it's badly put together for sure.
You mean level caps in different classes, including some classes being outright barred for some races, or do you more mean ability penalties and other such type drawbacks?
ConsumedReality wrote:
From a certain standpoint, maybe. However it's highly problematic in a class based game, with non-linear attribute costs, with classes that rely so heavily on specific attributes.
The lack of a bonus is already a penalty compared to a race that has the bonus. Penalties aren't really necessary. It pigeon holed races too much.
Samrin wrote:
seti wrote:
Gnomes and Dwarfs have a penalty to speed.
Humans, Halflings, and Dragonborn have a penalty not being able to see in the dark.
So i don't see an issue with drow having a penatly to see in the light.
seti wrote:
mellored wrote:
The darkvision thing is a bit iffy, it depends too much on the adventure.
Now on the other hand the speed thing is a penalty, however it's a penalty that applies pretty equally accross class and build where as attribute penalties do not.
The reason attribute penalties don't work is because they aren't valued anything remotely evenly accross classes and builds, even with the saves set up the way they are.
kalil wrote:
mellored wrote:
kalil wrote:
kalil wrote:
mellored wrote:
I thought the drow were supposed to be the villains that you kill?
Imaculata wrote:
A weakness to sunlight doens't comp for magic resistance. Sunlight vuln is too campaign dependent.
No seriously Magic resist unless you're going out of your way is not worth sunlight vuln.Magic is a big player, lighting not so much. Furthemrore Mag resist is useful to everyone, sunlight vuln doesn't gimp everyone.
Imaculata wrote:
Silarey wrote:
I currently play a drow bard. Sunlight sensitivity hasn't been an issue with me as I tend to use spells with saves, (de)buffs and only attack if necessary. The times I have gotten into combat where I've actually used my rapier or crossbow have been in a sewer system, a haunted manor, and a ankheg tunnels.
Overall, I'd say the drow is fine. Although, I wish they would've figured out a way to give them the magical resistence they're known for. At least give it to the NPC drow.
I do give NPC drow Magic Resistence when I run my games. What I was thinking about for PCs would be granting advantage on saves and +5 AC against a single school of magic. Haven't really thought through it yet.
Inaubryyn wrote:
Great 
Thank you everyone, for all your input.