Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Jun 08, 2015 12:07:28	Hi everyone! I really got started playing D&D in 3E; I played Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale before it, which were based on 2E, but never PnP. As such, I got incredibly used to having only three saving throws: Fort, Ref, and Will. I thought 4E's method of having two ability scores that can apply to each save was an interesting way of penalizing characters less for their low stats, but I think it also penalized characters who had high stats on the same defense (str/con, dex/int, wis/cha), especially since I found those ability pairs to be frequently paired on common archetypes.   When we found out that all 6 ability scores would be used for defenses, I was intrigued. As we're finding now, it's mostly Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, with a little bit of Cha thrown in; I personally have not found a single Int save yet. I'm also starting to worry that it's too incredibly easy to figure out something or somebody's low save and take advantage of that; this is an advantage that spellcasters get over non-casters who generally have to target AC, AC, and nothing but AC.   First, I am strongly considering changing saving throw proficiencies. I'm considering giving everyone their proficiency bonus to all of their saves; players get proficiency to all of their attacks, after all. Instead, I'd replace the class proficiency bonus with a flat bonus like it was in 4E (or at first level in 3E). These bonuses would not go back out with multiclassing, or at least they wouldn't stack.   But then I started to think about another way to change saving throws and make them more dynamic. I still think that requring all of a player's ability scores to be utilized as saves spreads them thin, but I think that can be utilized for something interesting. Saving throws are great because they put the die in the players hand and make them feel like they're doing something in their character's attempt to avoid an effect. So, why not give the players an extra choice?   What if certain saves called for one of two saving throw types? What if a player got to choose how they were going to resist an effect? When a fireball bears down on you, you could choose to dodge (Dex) or brace yourself (Con). When something tries to knock you down, you can fight it with force (Str) or evade it (Dex). When someone tries to exert their will over yours, you can use your willpower (Wis) or your own strength of personality (Cha).   This could maybe be applied to AC as well. Maybe characters can choose whether to try to dodge an attack, block with a shield, parry with a weapon, or simply brace yourself for the inevitable impact. It would be better to try certain things against certain attacks; it's probably safer to try to dodge an ogre's club than it is to try to block it, for instance.   Thoughts?
#2 mellored Jun 08, 2015 12:12:09	I add 1/2 proficency to the non-proficenct saves.   That still leaves everyone with strengths and weaknesses, just not quite as big of a gap.
(Reply to #2) arnwolf666	mellored wrote:
#4 Xeviat-DM Jun 08, 2015 12:45:11	I don't like 1/2 proficiency bonus to nonproficient saves because I think ability score growth already allows for weaknesses to be present and to grow. 1/2 proficiency bonus simply lessens this. Remember, it is rare that a player will make a non-proficient attack or an attack that isn't made with their primary ability score.   What do you think about the "player chooses from 2 stats" save mechanic? The idea comes from how grapple and push work, where the defender chooses from two skills.
#5 mellored Jun 08, 2015 12:49:49	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#6 Xeviat-DM Jun 08, 2015 13:05:07	"Make a Dex save" or "Make a Str or Dex save" doesn't seem to be slower to me, but it does seem to double variety. Players will feel they're making a meaningful choice, especially if there were additional riders (Wasn't there an ability in 3E, a feat or a class ability, that let you fall prone on a failed reflex save to treat it as a success?).   I mean, can you explain yourself further than just "I don't think so"? Clearly, we both think so, there's more to it than that.
#7 Zardnaar Jun 08, 2015 14:51:46	The saves are a bit borked. Wizards in effect get no good saves while havi ng a good con save is critically impotant for any spellcaster who uses concentration rolls. Also leaning towards melloreds idea.
#8 UngeheuerLich Jun 08, 2015 15:31:22	One Idea I had during playtest:   Add +1 to saving throws for every 20 hp remaining.
(Reply to #7) arnwolf666	Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #6) SilentSin	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#11 lawrencehoy Jun 08, 2015 23:59:16	SilentSin wrote:
(Reply to #11) SilentSin	lawrencehoy wrote:
#13 Xeviat-DM Jun 09, 2015 0:51:10	It would be a choice if the other half of the idea were worked on to fruition. Like a successful dex save comes with some movement, or if it wasn't always the best choice. Lets say your Dex is higher than your Con, and you can choose whether to make a Dex or a Con save, but the dex save DC is 2 higher ... yeah, this would add other elements to the game, and take time to put in, but if that time were taken, I think it would add interesting elements to the game.   Also, even when there is only one obvious choice, the player still chose to put their stats the way they did. Every time the DM calls for a save either using the PC's low stat and high stat, they're going to feel like they made the right choice in where they put their high stat. They'll feel rewarded for their choice.   And yes, it allows for more successes. Grapple presents the same choice for the same reason.
#14 lawrencehoy Jun 09, 2015 3:40:52	SilentSin wrote:
#15 mellored Jun 09, 2015 5:27:30	lawrencehoy wrote:
#16 lawrencehoy Jun 09, 2015 22:16:09	mellored wrote: