Eberon race rework - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 QwertyAzerty Feb 07, 2015 19:42:29	I already posted this, but it was deedp within an other tread and I would like some feedback on my suggestion: the race are interesting, but seem kind of weak on a optimazation point of view (yes I know a lot of player don't care since they only want to RP, but why would it be bad to have all race equally powerfull so if it doesn't hurt there RP aspect? In these spoiler box I'm giving my opinion on the races. and offer ideas to solve the problem. I did not do any playtest so it is simply a observation made from first impression and my ideas might be unbalance and might require some adjusting. Warforged Show So the warforged is technically a good class for strenght/melee oriented caracter. like a barbarian, fighter, paladin for exemple. SO let's compare him to an other strong strenght melee race : Half orc -Both are medium and have a 30ft speed. -Warforged gain +1strenght/+1 Constitution compare to the half orc +2 strenght/+1 Constitution -Warforged gain +1 AC (that from raw stack with additional armor? unarmed defense? mage armor? bracer of defense?), in past edition warforged couldn'T gain new armor since there plating was considered armored, but seem like it's no longer the case, since it's the wood/metal plating that offer the +1AC, does it apply on the druid wildshape as well? does my druid bear form will have wood/metal plating as well? can you even become a druid since you are made from metal and druid simply don't wear metal?), the half orc gain relentless endurance: (if he drop to 0 HP he drop to 1 instead 1/long rest) -Warforged gain immunity to desease, Half orc got +1dX on crit damage using melee weapon -Warforged gain no eat/breath for free, but this is mainly RP related, optimization wise, is very situational that eating/breathing is a problem. The Half orc gain Intimidation skill -Warforged got a improved trance like ability making you a very good sentinel for night watch, but in 5e night watch isn,t hard, since your character do NOT need to sleep 8 hours, he need to NOT do STRENEOUS activities for 8 hours to gain a long rest, so it's very easy to say that each character will do a 2 hours night watch and sleep 6 hours and everyone will benefit from a long rest even the spellcaster) and if they are disturbed, if the problem is solve rapidly there is no penalty to the long rest. I would like to see maybe a little bonus on teh warforged, maybe a subrace to add on him something like: -Mage Guardian: you had been created to protect a powerfull Mage who imbue on your plating magical runes (cannot be dispel) giving you an extra +1 Constitution and you can redirect a single target spell targeted toward an ally within 10 feet of you to target you instead once per short rest. -Front line breachers: you have been created to break the ennemy defense. You have +1 strenght and once per short rest when you hit with an attack you can choose to also shove the opponent in order to create a breach in the ennemy line defense. -Front line defender: You have been created to protect the front line. You have +1 Constitution and you gain the sentinel feat
#2 rampant Feb 07, 2015 20:28:52	Ok dude, shifters don't change that dramatically so armor/other gear isn't an issue. Druid uses 5es craptastic shapechanging magic which means full replacement of player stats you get none of your abilities, not even feats or racial abilities, while wildshaped. One option for warforged subraces might be to go back to the 3e sourcematerial and do it based on your imbedded armor type instead. As it stands that +1 ac stacks with any and everything. Monk or barbarian abilities, heavy armor, shields, you name it. I think for a changeling combat ability you'd be better off going with the disturbing visage trick rather than trying to mimic in the middle of a fight.
#3 MarcCCTx Feb 07, 2015 20:33:29	Here's my Warforged variation. Based on the PDF and someone else's post. The Juggernaut still needs work. ~Warforged (variant) The warforged were made as the ideal soldiers to serve in the devastating Last War. Although they are constructs, they have much in common with living creatures, including emotions and social bonds, and perhaps even souls. Traits As a warforged, you have the following racial traits. Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution scores increase by 1. Living Construct. Even though you were constructed, you are a living creature. You are immune to disease. You do not need to eat or breathe, but you can ingest food and drink if you wish. Instead of sleeping, you enter an inactive state for 4 hours each day. You do not dream in this state; you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal. Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice. Subtypes: Multiple types of warforged are found among the worlds, choose one of these types. Scout Design Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Size: While warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans, you were designed smaller. Your size is Small. Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet. Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class. Soldier Design Ability Score Increase: Your Strength score increases by 1. Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium. Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet. Combat Training: You gain proficiency in two weapons of your choice Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +2 bonus to Armor Class, your Dexterity modifier has a maximum of 2. Juggernaut Design Ability Score Increase: Your Constitution score increases by an additional 1. Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium. Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet. Reinforced Plating: You reduce all non magical Bashing/Slashing/Piercing damage by 3 (or should it be resistant) Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +3 bonus to Armor Class, your Dexterity modifier has a maximum of 0. Spellforged Design Ability Score Increase: Your Intelligence score increases by 1. Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium. Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet. Magical Boon: You gaining the Mending Cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting attribute Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
#4 rampant Feb 07, 2015 20:57:18	Ok marc, some issues: 1.) The soldier build is pretty useless. Martial classes already give you weapons. 2.) I know what you meant, namely max dex to AC, but the way you wrote it makes it seem like it applies to everything, and that's true for the juggernaught as well. Before you slip in max dex to AC though I gotta warn you off because I do not like where you're going with that. Juggernaught for example, assuming you want heavy armor, is actually loosing nothing. So a Warforged juggernaught fighter with a shield and fullplate has an AC of 23. 3.) I'd advise either going back to the 3e method where the warforged armor is a full up replacement for normal armor, or just keep the AC bonus the same, and give features based on the material, so adamant armor offers limited damage resist, darkwood does x, mithtril does y, production model (one without fancy plating embedded and jus the normal solid construction) does z.
#5 QwertyAzerty Feb 10, 2015 6:55:18	Rampant I updated that changeling by your suggestion since it sounded cooler (and offered more potential target and was easier to set the limitation) Still can a warforged become a druid even if he's made of metal? I still prefer my warforge subclass over those suggested by Marc for 2 reasons. - The warforged is not the new human able to adapt to any class and become the best second choice for every class, the warforged was made to become a strong melee type combattant. - Marc option still seem lackluster compare to the other race option making it easy for power gamer to ignore the warforge, and punishing conceptual player by giving them a legit "bad choice" making them weaker then the other choice. If WotC could release race/feat/class that are well balance and with nice conceptural feature, then the conceptual player wouldn't be inherently weaker then power gamer and having 3 good choice for a power gamer make it more interesting for a power gamer since there is not a single cookie cutter build. Ideally if we can make the warforged and the half orc and the human 3 super good choice, that are mathematically equivalent to build a strong melee strenght combatant then you would see more versatility in organize play instead of everyone playing a half orc barbarian and less discrimination from some "elitist" player saying stuff like if you play a warforged barbarian you cannot play at our table because warforged are weaker then then half orc. for example. I know it can be difficult to make race to be equally good for multiple class, but it's easier to make some class good for some character concept, human being the best second choice for all teh classes (since he his so versatile with hsi extra feat extra skill and 2 stat that you can choose). For example, if you want a strong charisma base spell caster then it's easy to make the half elf, lightfoot halfling and drow equivalent. For a strong strenght base melee character, half orc, Warforged, dragonborn. This way there is less "bad choice" when optimizing a character since doesn't matter if you take half orc, warforged or dragonborn, all 3 race offer great bonus for a strong melee strenght based character and eventhe optimizer can now choose which one he want to play instead of witch one the math dictate and the conceptual player can take the one he want to play without being gimp because he wanted a warforged and the half orc is 30% stronger for example. Yes there is still "bad choice" out there (like a tiefling barbarian since will raging the barbarian cannot use the spell of the tiefling, Intellect is mostly a dumb stat so hellish rebuke will deal minimal damage and fire resistance could have been pick up with a dragon born offering Stenght and a breath weapon based on the high Constitution of a barbarian, but at least it's a start where there is no longer a single ideal race for a style of play, and there is no longer "useless race used only by concept character" As it is now, if I ask who is the best sorcerer (traditional sorcerer stay behind the front line and blast the ennemy) the answer is easy, half elf, since everythign that the half elf bring to the table is usefull (darkvision, +2cha, +1 to 2 stats so great for wisdom (perception, wisdom check) Dex (AC, initiative Dex save) or Constitution (HP, Constitution save) follow by the Drow (ignore light sensitivity since you can simply use saving throw spell instead of attack spell, you gain 2 more usefulls pell (fairy fire, darkness and you can still cast fireball center on your darkness so who care is you cannot see within it), the weapon profiency are laughable, but everythign else is usefull compare to a dragonborn who's strenght bonus is useless, the breath weapon is close range and will most likely hit allies, but conceptually a dragonborn dragon blood sorcerer seem sooo cool, but he's soooo weak. Then you got some race who seem wrong no matter what class you use with them. like Mountain dwarf? +2strenght and +2 Constitution is super cool and great, but all class (barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger) who will enjoy +2 strenght and +2 constitution already have light and medium armor proficiency and should have more then 15 strenght (specifically with +2 racial) so the "not slow down by heavy armor" is useless. The weapon training is also useless since those class already have proficiency with ALL weapon. Yes Spellcaster might appreciate to gain that medium armor profiency but if he's wearing medium armor, the heavy armor speed reduction protection is still USELESS. Taking mountain dwarf just to gain medium armor seem like a wasted since your are not gaining your spellcasting stat bonus (Intellect/Wisdom or Charisma) you are not gaining the other race tailored for your class (gnome advantage on mental saving throws, high elf extra cantrip, trance and 30ft speed, half elf 30ft speed extra stats/skill, drow/tiefling extra spells and speed of 30ft etc... So what optimizer would take the mountain dwarf? who got all those useless stuff.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

QwertyAzerty

Feb 07, 2015 19:42:29

I already posted this, but it was deedp within an other tread and I would like some feedback on my suggestion:

the race are interesting, but seem kind of weak on a optimazation point of view (yes I know a lot of player don't care since they only want to RP, but why would it be bad to have all race equally powerfull so if it doesn't hurt there RP aspect?

In these spoiler box I'm giving my opinion on the races. and offer ideas to solve the problem. I did not do any playtest so it is simply a observation made from first impression and my ideas might be unbalance and might require some adjusting.

Warforged

Show

So the warforged is technically a good class for strenght/melee oriented caracter. like a barbarian, fighter, paladin for exemple.

SO let's compare him to an other strong strenght melee race : Half orc

-Both are medium and have a 30ft speed.

-Warforged gain +1strenght/+1 Constitution compare to the half orc +2 strenght/+1 Constitution

-Warforged gain +1 AC (that from raw stack with additional armor? unarmed defense? mage armor? bracer of defense?), in past edition warforged couldn'T gain new armor since there plating was considered armored, but seem like it's no longer the case, since it's the wood/metal plating that offer the +1AC, does it apply on the druid wildshape as well? does my druid bear form will have wood/metal plating as well? can you even become a druid since you are made from metal and druid simply don't wear metal?), the half orc gain relentless endurance: (if he drop to 0 HP he drop to 1 instead 1/long rest)

-Warforged gain immunity to desease, Half orc got +1dX on crit damage using melee weapon

-Warforged gain no eat/breath for free, but this is mainly RP related, optimization wise, is very situational that eating/breathing is a problem. The Half orc gain Intimidation skill

-Warforged got a improved trance like ability making you a very good sentinel for night watch, but in 5e night watch isn,t hard, since your character do NOT need to sleep 8 hours, he need to NOT do STRENEOUS activities for 8 hours to gain a long rest, so it's very easy to say that each character will do a 2 hours night watch and sleep 6 hours and everyone will benefit from a long rest even the spellcaster) and if they are disturbed, if the problem is solve rapidly there is no penalty to the long rest.

I would like to see maybe a little bonus on teh warforged, maybe a subrace to add on him something like:
-Mage Guardian: you had been created to protect a powerfull Mage who imbue on your plating magical runes (cannot be dispel) giving you an extra +1 Constitution and you can redirect a single target spell targeted toward an ally within 10 feet of you to target you instead once per short rest.

-Front line breachers: you have been created to break the ennemy defense. You have +1 strenght and once per short rest when you hit with an attack you can choose to also shove the opponent in order to create a breach in the ennemy line defense.

-Front line defender: You have been created to protect the front line. You have +1 Constitution and you gain the sentinel feat

rampant

Feb 07, 2015 20:28:52

Ok dude, shifters don't change that dramatically so armor/other gear isn't an issue. Druid uses 5es craptastic shapechanging magic which means full replacement of player stats you get none of your abilities, not even feats or racial abilities, while wildshaped.

One option for warforged subraces might be to go back to the 3e sourcematerial and do it based on your imbedded armor type instead. As it stands that +1 ac stacks with any and everything. Monk or barbarian abilities, heavy armor, shields, you name it.

I think for a changeling combat ability you'd be better off going with the disturbing visage trick rather than trying to mimic in the middle of a fight.

MarcCCTx

Feb 07, 2015 20:33:29

Here's my Warforged variation. Based on the PDF and someone else's post. The Juggernaut still needs work.

~Warforged (variant)
The warforged were made as the ideal soldiers to serve in the devastating Last War. Although they are constructs, they have much in common with living creatures, including emotions and social bonds, and perhaps even souls.
Traits As a warforged, you have the following racial traits.
   Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution scores increase by 1.
   Living Construct. Even though you were constructed, you are a living creature. You are immune to disease. You do not need to eat or breathe, but you can ingest food and drink if you wish. Instead of sleeping, you enter an inactive state for 4 hours each day. You do not dream in this state; you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
   Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.
   Subtypes: Multiple types of warforged are found among the worlds, choose one of these types.

Scout Design
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1.
   Size: While warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans, you were designed smaller. Your size is Small.
   Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet.
   Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.

Soldier Design
Ability Score Increase: Your Strength score increases by 1.
   Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium.
   Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
   Combat Training: You gain proficiency in two weapons of your choice
   Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +2 bonus to Armor Class, your Dexterity modifier has a maximum of 2.

Juggernaut Design
Ability Score Increase: Your Constitution score increases by an additional 1.
   Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium.
   Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet.
   Reinforced Plating: You reduce all non magical Bashing/Slashing/Piercing damage by 3 (or should it be resistant)
   Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +3 bonus to Armor Class, your Dexterity modifier has a maximum of 0.

Spellforged Design
Ability Score Increase: Your Intelligence score increases by 1.
   Size. Warforged are generally broader and heavier than humans. Your size is Medium.
   Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
   Magical Boon: You gaining the Mending Cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting attribute
   Composite Plating. Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.

rampant

Feb 07, 2015 20:57:18

Ok marc, some issues:

1.) The soldier build is pretty useless. Martial classes already give you weapons.

2.) I know what you meant, namely max dex to AC, but the way you wrote it makes it seem like it applies to everything, and that's true for the juggernaught as well. Before you slip in max dex to AC though I gotta warn you off because I do not like where you're going with that. Juggernaught for example, assuming you want heavy armor, is actually loosing nothing. So a Warforged juggernaught fighter with a shield and fullplate has an AC of 23.

3.) I'd advise either going back to the 3e method where the warforged armor is a full up replacement for normal armor, or just keep the AC bonus the same, and give features based on the material, so adamant armor offers limited damage resist, darkwood does x, mithtril does y, production model (one without fancy plating embedded and jus the normal solid construction) does z.

QwertyAzerty

Feb 10, 2015 6:55:18

Rampant I updated that changeling by your suggestion since it sounded cooler (and offered more potential target and was easier to set the limitation) Still can a warforged become a druid even if he's made of metal?

I still prefer my warforge subclass over those suggested by Marc for 2 reasons.

- The warforged is not the new human able to adapt to any class and become the best second choice for every class, the warforged was made to become a strong melee type combattant.

- Marc option still seem lackluster compare to the other race option making it easy for power gamer to ignore the warforge, and punishing conceptual player by giving them a legit "bad choice" making them weaker then the other choice.

If WotC could release race/feat/class that are well balance and with nice conceptural feature, then the conceptual player wouldn't be inherently weaker then power gamer and having 3 good choice for a power gamer make it more interesting for a power gamer since there is not a single cookie cutter build.

Ideally if we can make the warforged and the half orc and the human 3 super good choice, that are mathematically equivalent to build a strong melee strenght combatant then you would see more versatility in organize play instead of everyone playing a half orc barbarian and less discrimination from some "elitist" player saying stuff like if you play a warforged barbarian you cannot play at our table because warforged are weaker then then half orc. for example.

I know it can be difficult to make race to be equally good for multiple class, but it's easier to make some class good for some character concept, human being the best second choice for all teh classes (since he his so versatile with hsi extra feat extra skill and 2 stat that you can choose). For example, if you want a strong charisma base spell caster then it's easy to make the half elf, lightfoot halfling and drow equivalent. For a strong strenght base melee character, half orc, Warforged, dragonborn.

This way there is less "bad choice" when optimizing a character since doesn't matter if you take half orc, warforged or dragonborn, all 3 race offer great bonus for a strong melee strenght based character and eventhe optimizer can now choose which one he want to play instead of witch one the math dictate and the conceptual player can take the one he want to play without being gimp because he wanted a warforged and the half orc is 30% stronger for example. Yes there is still "bad choice" out there (like a tiefling barbarian since will raging the barbarian cannot use the spell of the tiefling, Intellect is mostly a dumb stat so hellish rebuke will deal minimal damage and fire resistance could have been pick up with a dragon born offering Stenght and a breath weapon based on the high Constitution of a barbarian, but at least it's a start where there is no longer a single ideal race for a style of play, and there is no longer "useless race used only by concept character"

As it is now, if I ask who is the best sorcerer (traditional sorcerer stay behind the front line and blast the ennemy) the answer is easy, half elf, since everythign that the half elf bring to the table is usefull (darkvision, +2cha, +1 to 2 stats so great for wisdom (perception, wisdom check) Dex (AC, initiative Dex save) or Constitution (HP, Constitution save) follow by the Drow (ignore light sensitivity since you can simply use saving throw spell instead of attack spell, you gain 2 more usefulls pell (fairy fire, darkness and you can still cast fireball center on your darkness so who care is you cannot see within it), the weapon profiency are laughable, but everythign else is usefull compare to a dragonborn who's strenght bonus is useless, the breath weapon is close range and will most likely hit allies, but conceptually a dragonborn dragon blood sorcerer seem sooo cool, but he's soooo weak.

Then you got some race who seem wrong no matter what class you use with them. like Mountain dwarf? +2strenght and +2 Constitution is super cool and great, but all class (barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger) who will enjoy +2 strenght and +2 constitution already have light and medium armor proficiency and should have more then 15 strenght (specifically with +2 racial) so the "not slow down by heavy armor" is useless. The weapon training is also useless since those class already have proficiency with ALL weapon.

Yes Spellcaster might appreciate to gain that medium armor profiency but if he's wearing medium armor, the heavy armor speed reduction protection is still USELESS. Taking mountain dwarf just to gain medium armor seem like a wasted since your are not gaining your spellcasting stat bonus (Intellect/Wisdom or Charisma) you are not gaining the other race tailored for your class (gnome advantage on mental saving throws, high elf extra cantrip, trance and 30ft speed, half elf 30ft speed extra stats/skill, drow/tiefling extra spells and speed of 30ft etc...

So what optimizer would take the mountain dwarf? who got all those useless stuff.