Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DemoMonkey Aug 09, 2014 11:07:37	If an Evoker wizaed with a 20 Intelligence cast Magic Missile with a 1st level slot, and directed each of the 3 darts at a different target, would each target take (d4+1)+5?   This questions would apply to a number of evocation spells that hit multiple discrete targets (but not an area), as well as to a Warlock with Agonizing Blast hitting multiple targets with the Eldritch Blast.cantrip.   I'm sure someone has asked something like this before, but I don't remember seeing it.
#2 Mephi1234 Aug 09, 2014 11:17:07	The answer came up in one of Mike's Tweets.    I believe the answer was yes, you get the bonus damage per target.    Though we were talking specifically about the wizard.      With Agonizing Eldritch Blast, though, I suspect that its added differently, as I suspect that Agonizing Blast is meant to keep pace with a ranged bow attack.
#3 DemoMonkey Aug 09, 2014 11:26:20	"With Agonizing Eldritch Blast, though, I suspect that its added differently, as I suspect that Agonizing Blast is meant to keep pace with a ranged bow attack."   I can't comment on that, I haven't read anything about it's design philosophy. I only know it's the only evocation cantrip I've found hat can affect multiple targets.
(Reply to #2) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#5 Overpromises Aug 10, 2014 14:54:16	Mike Mearls’ tweet was that against multiple targets the damage bonus would apply to each target, while against a single target the +5 would only apply once.   This also seems fair, which I think actually carries more weight than Mike Mearls’ unofficial ruling.
#6 Mephi1234 Aug 10, 2014 15:18:51	Ashrym wrote:
#7 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 15:45:26	Eldritch blast is a 1d10 (+Cha) ranged attack (assuming Agonizing Blast) which fires up to 4 beams at 17th level.    The wording on cantrips is ambiguous, and it is not clear whether they scale with class level, character level, or caster level, each of which may be different (as in the case of multiclass spellcasters). So far, I have been unable to determine which method they scale on, and have been going under the assumption of character level, as this seems in keeping with design philosophy that spellcasters should not fall behind other classes when multiclassing.   While the baseline similarity to a fighters Extra Attacks exist, there are several key differences which make warlocks and fighters much different beasts. Fighters gain Fighting Style and Action Surge, and have other class features which spike their damage further (depending on subclass). Champions have Improved and Superior Critical Battle Masters have maneuvers, most of which add 1d8 - 1d12 damage to the attacks damage (in addition to the maneuvers secondary benefit). Eldritch knights have (Improved) War Magic, and Eldritch Strike An Eldritch knight with the Magical Initiate or Spell Sniper feat can also snag Eldritch Blast should they choose, allowing them to fire 4 beams at 1d10 damage apiece, and also follow up with a melee or ranged weapon bonus attack. Admittedly, this kind of EK will either be 3-ability dependant, or will sacrifice Intelligence for Charisma (not that this is an optimal build, but it is an optional one).    Warlocks have no features which spike their Eldritch Blast damage into fighter levels - the closest is Agonizing Blast and we have already accounted for that. Meanwhile, Fighters have other (situational) advantages I have not accounted for. Archer Fighters have +2 (10%) accuracy boost over the Warlock, increasing their DPR accordingly. Fighters can benefit from magical bows, including those with special properties (DM dependant). This further increases their accuracy and damage, and by extension DPR. Fighters can benefit from the Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and Martial Adept feats, both of which increase their damage further (compared vs. a longbow).  Magic Resistance is fairly common (more common than piercing resistance). Eldritch blast will be affected by damage resistance more frequently as a result. Warlock, Ranger, and Fighter Damage analysis (L17 Snapshot) Warlock: A 17th level Warlocks Eldritch Blast is at +11 to hit, and deals 1d10+5 damage (av. 11), and fires 4 missiles. Fighter: A 17th level Fighters mundane Longbow is at +8 to hit, and deals 1d8+15 damage (av. 20), and fires 3 or 6 missiles (4 or 8 at 20th level)*.  Fighter (Champion): 18-20 Critical Range not included in the above damage Fighter (Battle Master): 1d10 (av. 6) extra damage due to maneuver use not included in the above damage. Fighter (Eldritch Knight): A 17th level EKs Firebolt is at +9 to hit, an deals 4d10 damage (av. 22). EKs can also make 1 longbow attack as above, dealing 42 damage (av) on two hits. Ranger: A 17th level Rangers mundane Longbow is at +8 to hit, and deals 1d8+15 damage (av. 20), firing 2 missiles. S/he adds +Wis to Attack or damage at 20th level* Ranger (Hunter): Volley allows them to attack all targets within 10 ft; Colossus Slayer adds 1d8 (av. 5) extra damage if the target is wounded; Horde Breaker allows follow up attack vs. different target 1/turn. *Includes Sharpshooter in attack/damage calculations. Does not include Critical hits (Champion), or Maneuvers.   While it is not guaranteed that a fighter will have a +3 weapon by 17th level (or ever), it is not an unrealistic assumption. Should a fighter have said weapon, they would have identical AB to the warlock, and deal considerably more than double the Warlocks Eldritch Blast damage/attack (1d8+18 damage, av. 23).   As highlighted above, Agonizing Blast Warlocks deal respectable striker damage. This damage is more than sufficient to act as a replacement or secondary "archer" in any party lacking a dedicated "archer" character, or in any campaign lacking feats, and all for the bargain price of 1 invocation slot. This allows you to sub for the "archer" role without expending significant resources to that goal.    If your goal is to act as a dedicated archer however, you are better off going Ranger or Fighter and taking the Sharpshooter feat at first opportunity. You will consistantly deal more damage over the course of your adventuring career and feel you are accomplishing more toward your goals, than an equivalent level Warlock. If however, you have other reasons for going warlock - the respectable striker damage is a nice bonus.
#8 FallingIcicle Aug 10, 2014 15:32:44	Agonizing blast and Empowered Evocation use very different wording. They're not at all the same thing. Empowered Evocation lets you "add your Intelligence modifier to the damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast", whereas with agonizing blast you "add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit." Since eldritch blast can hit multiple times, a warlock can add his Cha bonus each time.
#9 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 15:34:54	FallingIcicle wrote:
#10 FallingIcicle Aug 10, 2014 15:35:43	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #6) Overpromises	Mephi1234 wrote:
#12 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 16:01:42	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #12) Overpromises	The Warlock could cast Flesh to Stone, Finger of Death, Dominate Monster, and Power Word Kill, though, in addition to their regular spell slots every short rest.   I don’t actually see any reason why the warlock should have more cantrip damage than a sorcerer.
#14 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 16:59:01	Overpromises wrote:
#15 Mephi1234 Aug 10, 2014 17:01:35	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #15) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #15) Overpromises	If the argument is that warlocks aren’t that great, therefore they should get better cantrips, then whatever, I’ll go with that part.   Can’t any caster get Eldritch Blast with their existing spellcasting ability at the cost of one feat, though, or was that changed?
#18 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 17:59:07	Overpromises wrote:
#19 Mephi1234 Aug 10, 2014 18:24:31	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #19) Overpromises	Well, my thanks for this thread, it really drove home the point of how little damage a fighter does without his Fighting Style and one of the two heavy-hitting feats.   I now have as a goal that anything but a full caster needs to do significantly more at-will damage than a warlock.
(Reply to #19) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #21) TheMattyLee	This whole discussion of Warlocks vs Sorcerers is academic at best. There isn't any ambiguity in the way that Agonizing Blast is written or how it applies to Eldritch blasts. It applies to each hit. Whether you like it or not.  Also, it's not strictly a +5. It's your Charisma bonus (which obviously will hit +5 by the time you're a high level Warlock). And Eldritch Blast doesn't get additional beams until late enough in the game where that kind of damage isn't unheard of from other classes. Are Warlocks flashy and obviously good? Sure. Some might even say they're idiot proof. Are they actually markedly better than other classes at the same levels? Not really. Or at least I haven't seen a convincing argument.      Addressing the original question, at least by the rules, it seems that Empowered Evocation would apply to each. Can't see any reason that it wouldn't. Each missile is a seperate damage roll.
(Reply to #22) Ashrym	TheMattyLee wrote:
#24 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 21:29:29	TheMattyLee wrote:
(Reply to #24) TheMattyLee	Kalani wrote:
#26 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 22:22:49	TheMattyLee wrote:
(Reply to #25) Overpromises	TheMattyLee wrote:
#28 Kalani Aug 10, 2014 22:50:34	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #28) Ashrym	Kalani wrote:
#30 Mephi1234 Aug 11, 2014 3:03:18	Except Mike in the Tweet was talking about Magic Missile and Empowered Evocation there specifically.       Empowered Evocation is designed around a class that relies on major AoEs that encompass multiple enemies.    The wording of Empowered Evocation supports this.   The only thing the tweet clarified was that when two of three magic missiles hit someone, its counted as a single damage roll.   Eldritch Blast, with its distinct multiple attack rolls, has distinct multiple damage rolls.       Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Blast are different enough, not only in wording, but in the intent of the classes, that I find that the +5 per hit still makes sense as RAW.    I see no reason why this tweet changes anything.   You can't compare something that is meant to apply to fireballs that engulf large areas of enemies and assume it works the same with a mutli-attack roll cantrip.     The two are apples and oranges.    You shouldn't be comparing the warlock to either weapon attacks, nor spell attacks.    Its too different from anyone else in the game.    You can only go by how the warlock class itself plays out in play.
#31 Mephi1234 Aug 11, 2014 3:12:20	Ashrym wrote:
#32 mycroftb Aug 11, 2014 4:43:15	Here's the text of the linked tweet, emphasis mine:   Q: Does Empowered Evocation let you add your INT mod to every magic missiles? A: nope, just per target. Even though the missiles are separate, it's technically one damage roll per target, not missile Q: So if you split the missiles to 3 different targets, it would get INT mod to each. A: Correct. Basically, it's gain +Int mod once per creature affected by the spell.
#33 Ashrym Aug 11, 2014 10:55:16	Mephi1234 wrote:
#34 Mirtek Aug 11, 2014 15:02:08	Kalani wrote: