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| #1CulveDaddyJan 06, 2015 15:27:09 | Yesterday, I was DMing a campaign. The 5th-level Druid, circle of the moon, entered a local gladiatorial arena in his downtime. He defeated a Ettin, CR 4, single-handedly. Later, he defeated a mage (DM BR pg. 55), CR 6, single-handedly. His tactics are to use call lightning, then wildshape into a giant octopus. He is also able use conjure animals to summon eight swarms of ravens or eight swarms of bats, with each swarm able to deal 2d4 (bats) or 2d6 (ravens) damage per round. Though he didn't even use conjure animals in the gladiatorial arena, he really didn't need to. At 7th-level, he gains access to ploymorph, which will only compound issue. I have resently seen how the druid is the best tanking class in the game, by far, with good DPR. It seems the druid class is almost a one person party. I can't image a party of druids. What do you all think of the druid class and what are your experiences playing a druid and/or DMing with a druid in your party? |
| #2DaveDashJan 06, 2015 15:58:31 | You'd have the same issue with a Wizard casting sleep, hold person, or whatever on these same creatures. Or a Fighter just action surging and tearing those monsters apart. D&D isn't really designed for 1v1 arena combat either, since the players can 'go nova' for one combat and not worry about the rest of the day. Also why didn't the CR6 Mage fly way up high then laugh at him while tearing him apart with ranged cantrips? Counterspell all the Druids spells, or one fireball or cone of cold would also take care of the swarm.
The Moon Druid is a great tanking class (not "the best by far"), but he doesn't really do great damage. That's the trade off. You gave him time to get some get a few spells up and running. Even Clerics can do great damage if you give them time to get some spells up (Spiritual Weapon, Spirtual Guardians, etc).
Finally you'll also find a lot of spell casters in the books do not match their CR. I doubt the CR6 Mage is really CR6. With 40 hitpoints he has the defensive CR of a wet paper towel. |
| #3ZardnaarJan 06, 2015 15:58:38 | THe moon druid is a bit op at lower levels but starts to fall behind fast. They struggle ot hit and deal not much in damage. |
| (Reply to #2)CulveDaddy |
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| (Reply to #4)DaveDash |
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| #6Pompadour64Jan 06, 2015 17:57:08 |
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| (Reply to #6)DaveDash |
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| #8DaveDashJan 06, 2015 18:08:49 | Also regarding Polymoprh, he will only "outshine" other party members for a level or two, and provided he is in the open. If you're in a dungeon, there's not going to be a lot of T-Rex action happening in there.
Also his Wisdom save will be very weak, opening him up to being feared etc. Why wail on the guy when he's a bag of hitpoints? Just remove him from the fight with crowd control. |
| #9AshrymJan 06, 2015 18:26:09 |
Heavy armor, a shield, and heavy armor master is good for low levels. 50 bonus hit points just don't last that long when a person is getting hit 3 times as often because of a low AC. A fighter getting hit once for 7 damage is better than a druid getting hit 3 times for 30 damage even with 52 bonus hp twice based on 10 hp per hit. |
| #10ShinQuickManJan 06, 2015 18:42:54 | At level 7, Druids get Conjure Woodland Beings. This allows them to summon up to eight Pixies. A single Pixie has access to, among other things, the Polymorph spell. I don't think that needs further explanation. |
| (Reply to #5)CulveDaddy |
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| #12ZardnaarJan 06, 2015 18:56:09 | Druid DPR drops off a cliff at higher levels. Its good at level 2-6 and at level 10/11. As a DM you can often ignore the Druid anyway. |
| #13CulveDaddyJan 06, 2015 19:06:59 | I would like to know what are everyone's experiences DMing with players playing druid characters or yourself playing as a druid?
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| (Reply to #11)DaveDash |
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| (Reply to #10)DaveDash |
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| (Reply to #13)DaveDash |
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| (Reply to #14)CulveDaddy |
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| #18cowleymenJan 06, 2015 20:27:55 | In your situation, you needed to give either much higher Hp or give them some more class features to go 1v1 with a PC, if their challange rating is similar to the PC. Great way to do that is to add feats as well. Will help add toughness to creatures.
As for the mage, it was a mage in the gladiator pits, I probably would have changed his spell list to reflect that. |
| #19CulveDaddyJan 06, 2015 20:29:06 | I would like to hear what are everyone's experiences DMing with players playing druid characters or playing a druid yourself?
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| (Reply to #17)DaveDash |
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| (Reply to #20)CulveDaddy |
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| (Reply to #21)DaveDash |
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| (Reply to #22)CulveDaddy |
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| (Reply to #23)Ashrym |
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| (Reply to #24)CulveDaddy |
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| (Reply to #25)Ashrym |
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| #27pukunuiJan 07, 2015 0:31:33 | There is a 14th level druid in the game I'm playing in, and a 4th level druid in a game I'm DMing. Both are Circle of the Moon. Neither outshines any other PC that I've noticed. |
| #28CulveDaddyJan 07, 2015 1:02:11 |
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| #29ZardnaarJan 07, 2015 1:14:01 | THe land Druid is more or less a controller as well and MCs funny with a single level of life cleric. |
| #30FuelDropJan 07, 2015 1:24:51 | I'm playing a druid right now, so if I may make some observations: (Note, I am circle of the forest, not circle of the moon)
Druids are a great problem solving class. They get access to shapes with climb speeds, burrow speeds and jump-boosting abilities by level 2, and soon after that get access to swim and fly speeds. Other casters get access to climb and fly speeds too, and most get fly earlier than druids, but to the best of my knowledge druids are the only class which has access to burrowing at low levels.
They can also transform into small and innocuous forms, making them very good scouts and spies. However, a pact of the chain warlock with a pixie familiar and the voice of the chain master invocation outclasses them in scouting by having an invisible, spellcasting, flying scout that they can see through the eyes of by level 3. Arguably the best scouting class in the game, and access to 4th level spells by level 3 as well!
On to the Druid's spell list: Druids are not powerful blaster casters, but they are incredibly cost efficient blaster casters. Their spells tend to deal less damage and in a smaller area than what a wizard or sorcerer would have at their level, but that one spell will likely last through the whole fight. Moonbeam is an excellent example of this, as it lasts 10 rounds with concentration and is dealing a healthy 2d10 damage to a 5 foot radius (4 squares if you use a map) for each of those rounds. And you can move it. And it hits stuff up to 60 feet above that area as well. One second level spell lasting the whole fight is good economy, if you can keep it up. Shatter, the arcane counterpart, has a much larger area and deals better damage, but once you've used it it's gone.
Where Druid spells truely shine are two areas: Battlefield control and Summoning. Druids have an excellent battlefield control list and hands down the best summoning in the game. However, all three of these types of spells have one thing in common: Concentration. A Druid casting offensively suffers a huge drawback as almost all their spells require concentration, which seriously hinders their damage output as a caster class. This is compounded by poor range for their cantrips, leaving them far behind the wizard as blasters. Druids are excellent support casters and endurance blasters, but I've found them seriously hindered as DPR casters.
Where I've found that a Druid can really shine is in black ops. They get access to the AWESOME pass without trace spell that gives them and all allies within 30 feet +10 on stealth checks and removes tracks. They can turn into forms that allow them to bypass obsticles easily and can give them a good stealth score even when they normally would not have one. They have forms that grant them special senses like darkvision that allow them to operate in adverse conditions. All of this is available by 3rd level. when paired with some rogues the Druid's ability to cast Faerie fire and paint the enemy for sneak attacks is incredibly valuable.
Now to summoning. As a general rule when summoning for combat I tend to find that a single powerful creature is the best option available to you in many circumstances. They tend to have good hit points and good attack, and unlike summoning large numbers of smaller creatures they are not likely to get anhiolated by enemies with area attacks. Most importantly, a single summoned creature doesn't bring the fight to a screeching halt every round, thus avoiding angering the other players and GM. If you want a really good summon at level 7 the gargoyle weighs in as a strong contender for tanking, with resistance to non magical adamantine weapons allowing him to soak a staggering amount of damage. Summoning a hoard of Pixies is a great option, just not for combat. Pixies can turn invisible, fly, are tiny and are highly intelligent, making them excellent spies. They can also cast a lot of spells and sustain them independantly of the Druid, thus making them an excellent get around for the Druid's concentration-heavy list. However with their measly 1 hp each, low save DCs, and the fact that they have to be visible to concentrate on their spells, Pixies are a poor choice for combat. You're better off having them cast fly on the whole party and maintain it while you rain death from above, or use polymorph on your squishy wizard when he's surrounded to turn him into something a bit more badass, or even spam sleep (which doesn't allow a save) against some guards to take them down without leaving a trail of blood everywhere.
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| #31tearicJan 07, 2015 2:09:56 | I played a Cicle of the Moon druid through Lost Mines of Phandelver. Although the number of HP available through wild shape was huge at low levels, I did not find that I routinely outshone the rest of the party in combat. As others have mentioned, you really churn through those extra HP quickly with such low beast ACs. I also found the Large size of most beast forms very awkward in dungeon combat using a map grid. I would routinely have to squeeze through doors, or wait for party members to get out of the way before I could get in to the 2x2 square position I needed to be in. If you play without grids for most combats, that may not be an issue for you. Finally, I was in a party where everyone had darkvision, so we didn't bother with torches underground. I was surprised to discover that the Tiger was the only beast form I could change into with darkvision and, while not bad, it's less effective than a bear or dire wolf.
On the other hand, I was certainly very competitive, even very good in combat... just not quite outshining the rest of the party in an "Oh, what? Did you guys come along too and want to do something?" kind of way.
Where I think I did outshine others was in out-of-combat versatility. I was able to put very good rolls in both Dex and Wis, and bumped them with Wood Elf bonuses, so I had very strong perception and stealth, which constituted about 80% of our out-of-combat rolls. Sprinkle tracking on top of that via Survival, and I was really in the driver's seat for all of the wilderness and dungeon exploration. Excellent Insight (based on Wis) even allowed me to participate to some degree in social skill situations. Access to the Guidance cantrip is just gravy on all that skill-buffet of awesomeness. Wild shape gave access early on to climbing forms (giant spider webbing ropes in place for the party to climb...), stealthy/disguised forms, and other general utility – flying forms will just amplify that. I'm also a huge fan of the Druid spell list (even before you get to summoning), which gave all kinds of utility. For example using Speak WIth Animals (as a ritual) every morning and every time we stopped for lunch can net you a lot of intelligence about local monsters and their activities. Darkvision on the one character who didn't natively have it via racial ability allowed us to go torchless and sneak around much more effectively. Pass Without Trace allowed us to make fools of the Red Brands out looking for us. Oh yeah, and Goodberry. Plus (getting back to combat), I do love Faerie Fire.
Is the Druid ridiculously OP? Maybe at level 2, but otherwise not really. Is the Druid insanely versatile (especially benefitting immensely from Dex and Wis skills)? Hell yes. But several other classes can bring a lot of utility too.
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| #32KeaerinJan 07, 2015 2:36:44 | A buddy and I are doing occasional fight senarios with a party of 5 adventurers as kind of a play test. The party we put togther was level 5 and will be leveling up as we play. The party is as follows:
Bard 4 (lore)/ Cleric 1 Paladin of Vengance 5 Warlock 3 (chains)/ Sorcerer 2 Fighter 3 (dual weilder)/ Rogue 2 Moon Druid 5 All are variant human
We did not take any magic items but allowed any reasonable gear to be taken. This was also played with minis to for a full tactical sim. We didn't have time to do a full adventure spread of encounters so we each grabbed a monster manual and put togther a quick encounter using the rules in the DMG for encounter building We shot for a 2500 exp fight which in the DMG was considered a "medium" encounter.
Encounter one: " Wolves in a hand basket" The encounter involved 1 winter wolf, 2 dire wolves and I belive it was 5 normal wolves. There was no surprise round and the wolves started by surrounding the party at about 5 to 10 squares (25 - 50') Notes about how the encounter went from my POV.
The paladin was the odvious star of this battle he took 2 hits and the wolf's breath all in stride and was missed several times eating up attacks with his 20 ac even with the wolves gaining a ton of advantage thoughout the fight. He dished out a ton of on demaned damage as well.
The Druid Wildshaped into a giant spider and became a big wall of hit points taking at least 3 hits and a breath to the face. He was knocked out of wildshape once but the fight ended before he could use it again after it was all said and done he soaked the most hps of damage but was hit every time he was attacked without fail. He finished well below half of his actual hps from a bad first round init roll and bleed over from getting tagged by every attack. He did solid sustained damage though he did miss a fair amount of attacks (I think he missed 2 out of 5 attacks)
The bard did well but the fighter got his butt kicked (to be fair he got surrounded solo) and the warlock was mediocre at best (bad dice rolling didn't help the poor sod though)
Encounter 2: "A hook in the face is worth 2 in the bush." This fight was meant to be a 2500 exp ecounter but because of the rules fell short to 2100 and I figured lets give it a go with 2 hooked horrors at point blank range in a cave.
Again the paladin was the best character overall but the fighter definatly pulled his weight this time thanks to a farie fire by the druid. The fight wasn't hard at all but the Warlock took an early butt whomping as a random dice roll had one of the horrors litterally drop from the ceiling onto the poor guy. The druid did well taking two rounds of attacks (again hit everytime) from the other horror which fell on him in a corner. The druid did very low damage though but that was in part my fault for a bad form pick (Giant Badger).
Overall Id say at 5th level the druid does seem powerful but so did the other characters in their own way. Farie Fire is going to be a party favorite as advantage is outright GG. The sack of hitpoints schtic is the nitch that druid fills but the damage is only decent without the ability to stack buffs because of concentration, it makes for some tough choises particularly for druid. We are going to be doing a lot more of these tests in the future so I'll have more to add but for now at level 5 I'd say powerful yes, overpowered no. |
| (Reply to #31)CulveDaddy |
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| #34pukunuiJan 07, 2015 10:53:00 |
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| (Reply to #19)7he_professor |
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| (Reply to #28)Ashrym |
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| #37DaveDashJan 07, 2015 14:54:58 | You can cast Barkskin before wild shaping giving you 16 AC. You wont be doing lots of damage though. |
| #38LeugrenJan 07, 2015 15:01:41 |
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| #39pukunuiJan 07, 2015 15:12:24 |
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| #40LeugrenJan 07, 2015 15:17:17 |
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| #41ShinQuickManJan 08, 2015 10:34:29 | Hmmm.... Now that I think about it, there's no real guarantee that swarms are valid Conjure Animals summons. |
| #42Brock_LandersJan 08, 2015 11:41:29 |
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| (Reply to #4)1eejit |
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| #44FuelDropJan 08, 2015 14:37:51 | A slight correction RE: warlock trick. Sprites don't get spells, I was thinking of pixies. Still get invisibility, flight, and poisoned sleep arrows though. |
| #45ShasarakJan 08, 2015 15:16:28 |
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| #46ShinQuickManJan 08, 2015 15:22:51 | Well, T-Rexes aren't valid Wildshape forms, so it it wouldn't help if they saw them anyway.
Polymorph, however, doesn't have that restriction. |
| (Reply to #45)DaveDash |
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| #48ShasarakJan 08, 2015 15:38:33 |
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| (Reply to #48)DaveDash |
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| #50ShasarakJan 08, 2015 15:59:53 |
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| #51Brock_LandersJan 08, 2015 21:48:00 |
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| #52FuelDropJan 09, 2015 2:29:58 | Have your Druid be a bibliophile with a love of (and proficiency in) history!
In all honesty though, the Giant Ape is a better choice of polymorph than the t-rex most of the time. Particularly if you want to reenact King Kong. |
| #53MecheonJan 09, 2015 3:20:27 |
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| (Reply to #35)CulveDaddy |
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