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| #1NevvurOct 01, 2014 23:15:52 |
I was just looking over the Fabricate spell, and it seems a caster with smith's tools proficiency could churn out multiple suits of full plate per day... or whatever he's making, it only takes ten minutes. This could easily make mundane smiths irrelevant for high value items (I dont imagine the wizard in question will waste his time on nails and horseshoes). It got me wondering what some other effects magic could have on the economics of a city, kingdom, or even world. e.g. Illusionists and conjurers could make an assortment of forgeries, necessitating investment in magic detection and scrying by shop keepers.
Thoughts? And how to circumvent those unscrupulous mages? |
| #2SlaunyehOct 01, 2014 23:33:50 | It's an age-old question, but basically the reason high level magic doesn't completely mess up any semblance of "normal" economy is generally a question of availability. It is assumed that high level mages are both rare enough and too busy plotting world domination to set up full-plate shops across the land. (And also because D&D, historically, has not focused very much on economic simulation. Which is a shame because I would totally play that. :p) |
| #3arnwolf666Oct 02, 2014 0:17:00 | We play with fantasy economics not real world economics. |
| #4ankiyavonOct 02, 2014 0:38:25 |
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| #5AaronOfBarbariaOct 02, 2014 5:53:55 | My answer for this has always been a simple one: Spellcasters of such advanced level have far more pressing concerns than that, and are exceedingly rare (and yes, I realize that it only takes a 7th level character - I'm still stuck in the days of yore when even having a class was something special, so being level 7 was so rare that most regular folks in the world couldn't even tell you the name of one person so powerful, let alone one that is actually a mage). |
| #6melloredOct 02, 2014 5:58:32 | I don't see it.
You still need the material, and artisan proficency. How many smith / mage are there? |
| #7TimboramaOct 02, 2014 6:27:04 | While every now and then, high level PCs retire and start businesses, they rarely abuse their powers to ruin the world economy. Only an evil PC would do that. Other times, they retire and hold a mundane job like sailor, shopkeep, or bartender, not using their magic powers or abilities that much (perhaps on purpose).
But let's also remind ourselves that if you can cast Wish or Fabricate...why the heck would you bother flooding the market with Full Plate in the first place...? |
| #8JodyJohnsonOct 02, 2014 7:15:54 | Assumptions: 1. Fabricate spell exists. This is not a new discovery and casters can use magic to make items.
2. Crafting economy works as written People still take time and work to make items.
My conclusion: Therefore the spell Fabricate doesn't work by the crafting economy rules, but actually requires full cost resources instead of half.
It merely saves time and generally speaking the products are in some way inferior to products made through the normal crafting rules.
This applies to fortification construction as well. Although generally rock, wood, and dirt are effectively 'free'.
Consider the 'extra' resources required to be consumed by the magic like normal material components. |
| #9LawolfOct 02, 2014 8:11:45 | Any wizard worth his salt will learn fabricate.
It is hard to plot world domination without vast sums of money. Fabricate allows you to raise capital faster and more safely than adventuring.
Any wizard who wishes to affect the world should spend some time mass fabricating items to amass a fortune. They can profit by selling the suits of plate at a discount to two warring nations. They can equip their armies of undead with plate armor making them significantly more powerful. They can crash the economy of powerful nations by flooding them with cheap goods. There is no limit to the chaos that can be caused by a clever level 7 wizard with fabricate. |
| #10DemoMonkeyOct 02, 2014 8:54:14 | Why would you make plate? It will just go to Fighter types, who will eventaually be tasked by the king to "Go kill that wizard who is ruining the economy!".
Make furniture instead, it won't be used against you. "Make Armoires, not Armours!" |
| #11Slyck314Oct 02, 2014 9:04:35 | So how many smiths is a wizard with two available slots for fabricate worth? I don't have my books at work. |
| #12LawolfOct 02, 2014 9:25:46 |
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| #13melloredOct 02, 2014 9:29:01 | How much XP is a smith worth? |
| #14KarnosOct 02, 2014 10:19:16 | A 5th level thief assassin can kill a weaponsmith and steal all his current wares, easily once per day. We'll assume 4 suits of armor.
Therefore a 5th level thief is the equivilent of 4 level 7 wizards using fabricate. |
| #15Arbitrary_AardvarkOct 02, 2014 10:26:58 | In 3.0/3.5, the wizard doesn't need to do the fabricating. He makes a magic item. To play a rif on Clarke's law "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." With the rules for creating magical devices, the estimated costs (without my rules at hand) are: Magical Dry Cleaner -- prestidigitation box, uncharged, usable by anyone, restricted (only clean) -- about 3,000 gp. Magical Printing Press -- 3rd level amanuensis spell, uncharged, usable by anyone, immobile -- about 9,000 gp. Magical Armor Making Item -- 5th level fabrication spell, usable 1/day, usable by anyone, immobile, restricted (craft armor only) -- about 12,000 gp. |
| #16AhglockOct 02, 2014 10:31:38 |
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| (Reply to #6)Timborama |
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| (Reply to #12)Slyck314 |
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| #19LawolfOct 02, 2014 10:43:06 | Some races get tool proficiencies for free as well.
But here is the real issue.
Why would a normal smith ever make a suit of armor. If it takes 300 days, you would not risk creating a suit of armor on the chance that someone someday might purchase it. Especially given that plate armor generally needs to be specially built to fit a person.
No, you craft a suit of armor after being commissioned to do so.
But what wealthy noble will want to wait 300 days to have their armor crafted for them when a spellcaster can do it in 10 minutes. |
| #20melloredOct 02, 2014 10:50:11 | How many people are ording plate? |
| (Reply to #19)Timborama |
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| #22Slyck314Oct 02, 2014 10:50:15 | Well I expect it wouldn't actually take 300 days. The proffesional blacksmith that would take that kind of order would have a whole collection of journeymen and apprentices that would reduce the time. Say it would take 30 days.
I could see anyone waiting 30 days for something that expensive, if they thought the blacksmith (and his people) would do a better job. This could just be preception or personal bias on the consumers part, but those things do matter in the fantasy world, even if both suits have the same stats in the game world. |
| (Reply to #22)Timborama |
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| #24TaejangOct 02, 2014 11:34:00 | I'd say the local guilds had the wizard killed.
In all reality, though, this is an inconsistency within the universe. They are everywhere if you look for them: training time to master a language is only 250 days? That is a heck of a language learning program. You can't train a feat like Polearm Mastery, but you can learn to use lockpicks? What, are there no trainers with spears?
A barbarian with 18 strength can carry 270 lbs of stuff. Say the character only actually carries 180 pounds. That character then runs around caves, fighting goblins and bandits and who knows what else, with 180 lbs of stuff. You go find the toughest, strongest human soldier alive today and ask how much all their gear weighs and how long they can fight with it, not to mention whether they can run as quickly and as great a distance as a lightly-armed soldier. And the soldiers of today don't swing swords around as fast and hard as they can, like a barbarian would.
Point is, gameplay and balance often trump realism. We all prefer it that way. Not everything needs a plausible in-world explanation, because sometimes there just isn't one and we need things to be a certain way anyway. |
| #25ShasarakOct 02, 2014 15:22:30 | It could be worse.
It could be bringing Astral Diamonds in from the Elemental Plane of Diamonds. |
| #26GriffordOct 02, 2014 13:12:35 | The existence of fireball doesn't turn spellcasters into cremators. The existence of plant growth doesn't turn spellcasters into farmers. The existence of heat metal doesn't turn spellcasters into grill cooks.
So, likewise, the existence of fabricate has as much impact on the game as you feel like dealing with. I imagine most wizards have better things to do with their spell slots than play industrialist.
Unless your long term plan is to level to 7th and become a crafting savant, you're likely to pass over fabricate until you run across it on a scroll. |
| #27TimboramaOct 02, 2014 13:19:53 | The lazy adventurer: "Aw man, I'm just gonna get to level 7, retire, then f'in coast..." |
| #28DemoMonkeyOct 02, 2014 14:27:07 | "I'd say the local guilds had the wizard killed."
This.
NOW it transitions from broken to an interesting piece of worldbuilding/potential plot hook. |
| #29PauperOct 02, 2014 14:34:15 | Shh, you'll tip off the characters in my game that there's a secret cadre of cleric/assassins of Waukeen who specialize in taking out people like this who mess with the 'natural economic order'.
They're called 'The Invisible Hand'.
-- Pauper |
| #30Brock_LandersOct 02, 2014 14:38:42 |
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| #31DemoMonkeyOct 02, 2014 14:39:45 | “Shh, you'll tip off the characters in my game that there's a secret cadre of cleric/assassins of Waukeen who specialize in taking out people like this who mess with the 'natural economic order'.
They're called 'The Invisible Hand'.”
Have they been hired by the Adam Smiths Guild? |
| #32Slyck314Oct 02, 2014 14:57:32 | In my game the bourgeoisie have gained significant social power and anything that dramatically treatened their institutions, like the guilds, would be quickly branded a threat to the state and hunted down with prejudice. |
| #33DemoMonkeyOct 02, 2014 15:00:58 | "In my game the bourgeoisie have gained significant social power and anything that dramatically treatened their institutions, like the guilds, would be quickly branded a threat to the state and hunted down with prejudice."
That just changes WHO wants the fabricating wizard dead.
The bourgeoise have no interest in having the armory businesses some of them undoubtedly profit from, nor do they want some renegade wizard arming the proletariat with cheap armour. |
| #34KarnosOct 02, 2014 16:09:41 |
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| #35LawolfOct 02, 2014 16:17:11 |
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| #36ShasarakOct 02, 2014 16:17:40 |
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| #37ankiyavonOct 02, 2014 16:21:48 |
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| #38LawolfOct 02, 2014 16:36:35 |
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| #39ankiyavonOct 02, 2014 17:09:12 |
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| #40GriffordOct 02, 2014 17:20:56 |
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| #41LawolfOct 02, 2014 17:34:03 |
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| #42MechaPilotOct 02, 2014 17:38:01 |
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| #43GriffordOct 02, 2014 17:42:04 |
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| #44ORC_CricketOct 02, 2014 17:43:46 | We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.
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| #45MechaPilotOct 02, 2014 17:47:50 |
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| #46GriffordOct 02, 2014 17:52:38 |
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| #47LawolfOct 02, 2014 17:58:08 |
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| #48MechaPilotOct 02, 2014 18:00:09 |
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| (Reply to #42)Slyck314 |
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| #50ShasarakOct 02, 2014 18:31:47 | I am not sure what I dislike more: Expecting DnD economics to make sense or playing in a world with no level 7+ characters.
Hmm, both are pretty annoying. |
| #51KarnosOct 02, 2014 20:44:03 |
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| #52PolarisOct 02, 2014 20:53:03 |
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| #53KarnosOct 03, 2014 4:20:11 |
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| #54SteeldoomOct 03, 2014 5:11:31 | Even if you can make full plate at half cost, that just drives the price of what other black smiths sell them for, in other words your economic advantage wouldn't last long. Other factors like after market service ("can you fix this dent in my helm?") and marketing ("trust me, I made your dad's first chain mail") would all weigh into the equation.
I think if I were the level 7 mage with fabricate, I would be making a five foot cube of arrows every day. The material components would be easier to come by and as the units are smaller they would be far far easier to sell., there can't be that many people that would actually want to wear full plate, even if it was free. Then you have to worry about the local army locking you up in a dungeon and getting you to produce items on demand. In my mind this is the real reason you wouldn't start churning out gear, it should be a SECRET so that you don't get taken advantage of. |
| #55arnwolf666Oct 03, 2014 5:53:20 | Maybe wizards have better things to do with their time than fabricate armor. It amazes me people even sit around and worry about this stuff. |
| (Reply to #33)Timborama |
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| #57GriffordOct 03, 2014 7:37:38 |
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| #58GriffordOct 03, 2014 7:39:44 |
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| #59RCanineOct 03, 2014 8:42:33 | What exactly is the demand for suits of plate mail though? I mean, 1500gp is the cost of 30 pounds of raw gold. It's 150 head of cattle, or over 8 years of lodging in a modest inn. Most people in such a world should have a net wealth in the single-digit gold pieces. Spending that type of fortune on one or two points of AC is the type of lavish expenses that most people would simply laugh at. I see it akin to triathletes that buy $10,000 bikes, or rolexes that cost more than a new car. So the demand for such a thing is actually pretty low, especially when there are low-cost almost-as-good alternatives.
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| #60PolarisOct 03, 2014 7:54:20 |
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| #61KarnosOct 03, 2014 8:29:47 |
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| (Reply to #22)Arbitrary_Aardvark |
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| (Reply to #59)Arbitrary_Aardvark |
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| #64TaejangOct 03, 2014 9:23:17 |
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| #65Brock_LandersOct 03, 2014 9:37:57 |
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| #66PolarisOct 03, 2014 10:28:06 |
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| #67KarnosOct 03, 2014 10:42:05 |
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| #68Slyck314Oct 03, 2014 10:44:37 | I thought fabricate could only create a single item per casting. This would make it useful for exactly things like platemail that are difficult to produce normally, But it falls flat on the wider much deeper market of simple items that are already easily produced. Once again, fabricate isn't going to bring down any kingdoms or really build a significant financial empire. But it could piss off those people that already have such things. |
| #69OrethalionOct 03, 2014 10:46:39 |
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| #70MarcCCTxOct 03, 2014 10:49:02 | The gods don't watch merchants and craftsmen like they watch adventurers. After a while your levels start slipping away, you get older, marry, have kids. The magic doesn't come to you as fast. (rule in my campaign, non-adventurers can't take more than one healing potion without going into a healing coma)
Basically, there's a difference between non-adventurers and adventurers. If you're going to get bogged down with money making schemes, role up a new character and retire the money maker as an npc you might meet latter.
The adventurers who survived Lost Mines retire and start making magic weapons. They'll be encountered by the adventurers from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but they're out of the game. |
| #71OrethalionOct 03, 2014 10:51:56 |
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| #72OrethalionOct 03, 2014 10:55:37 |
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| (Reply to #50)Pauper |
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| #74DemoMonkeyOct 03, 2014 11:17:36 | The wizard can make 1500 gp a day from making 2 suits of plate....
...assuming there are two people every day who HAVE 1500 gp (each) to buy the plate!
How many people do you think have that kind of money? How long before the wizard can't find anyone to buy at that price? How long before the steelmakers start gouging the wizard on the raw material cost? How long before the armourers guild starts hiring thugs to rough the wizard (or his friends and family) up? How long before the nobility start thinking about having him imprisoned or killed as a disruptive, if not treasonous, influence? How long before thieves come looking for this new rich itarget? (That last one would happen to an indiscreet adventuring wizard too, but the fabricator has to let it be known they are taking commissions.)
All of these things provide good adventure hooks. This isn't a problem, people. It's an opportunity. |
| #75PolarisOct 03, 2014 12:41:05 |
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| #76MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 12:57:37 |
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| #77MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 12:59:19 |
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| #78PolarisOct 03, 2014 13:25:47 |
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| #79MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 13:31:36 |
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| #80MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 13:38:15 |
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| #81LawolfOct 03, 2014 13:49:58 |
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| #82PolarisOct 03, 2014 14:05:34 | Frankly what I've already discovered with (overly?) clever players is to completely ignore the economics, and flat out say that the rules don't make any economic sense whatsoever. I then tell my players please don't:
1. Break the game by selling casting services 2. Break the game by using fabricate (or other means) to spam items of value 3. Use the literal rules to try to earn your primary money by means other than adventuring.
I admit it's a bit heavy handed on my part, but I've found that in such cases where you have such obvious montary infinate loops (and Gurps Magic has very similiar issues), it's less painful for me to point them out and ask players not to do it.
[Now if the PCs really NEED some fast money for a plot related reason, I might relax this 'just once' to let things procede, but I'd tell my players this]
-Polaris |
| #83GriffordOct 03, 2014 14:24:33 |
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| #84MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 15:02:07 |
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| #85GriffordOct 03, 2014 15:28:05 | Yeah, 200 is the top-end, but it's still a real figure. There are 833 wizard spell levels, IIRC. You get only a fraction of that without spending time and money copying the spells. Then there's in-school and off-school magic that alters the figure further, but it's Friday and I'm not trying to crack an encypted Nazi telegram or anything.
Long and short of it all is that there's more than one reason to spend several months in town doing nothing. The idea that the time and, by extension, difficulty of crafting plate sort of naturally relegates it to "things we pay for rather than do ourselves" doesn't really have as much traction as I think you think it does. |
| #86MechaPilotOct 03, 2014 15:40:29 |
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| #87UchawiOct 04, 2014 5:51:15 | I prefer that skills, spells, items, and other class abilities share some consistency, or a common baseline, but D&D has never taken that approach since magic can do anything. You are better off with a system that assumes item creation has a common cost and effort associated with it regardless of the means. |
| #88AhglockOct 04, 2014 9:58:17 |
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| #89OrethalionOct 04, 2014 10:11:28 |
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| #90OrethalionOct 04, 2014 10:12:10 |
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| #91Brock_LandersOct 04, 2014 10:27:16 |
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| #92NevvurOct 04, 2014 11:45:37 |
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| (Reply to #69)arnwolf666 |
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| #94OrethalionOct 04, 2014 16:24:34 |
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| #95ShasarakOct 04, 2014 17:19:10 |
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| #96KarnosOct 04, 2014 17:39:54 | It's really simple actually.
1- You need to determine that rate of armor sales an armorer has.
2- You need to determine the cost of hiring a wizard, or an apprentice.
3- Given the above, you can figure out a ratio at which apprentices or wizards allow you to reach demand to meet the rate of armor sales from (1).
1- We are talking about the 1500g full plate? I'd guess, an average of *maybe* 1 per month. Maybe even less. I mean, if I took my campaign as an example, demand thus far has been exactly ZERO. Anyone trying to sell a suit of full plate would be pretty sad by now, but that is what it is.
2- 7th level wizard? Anyone care to take a guess? Probably a few hundred gold at least? Lets say 150g per day. An apprentice? 2g per day, as a "skilled hireling"
3- 365 2g per day aprentices would allow for a suit of armor every day once production is up and running. Overkill. Since we are going with 1 suit per month, you can divide that by 30- 12 and some change- we can then round up to 13. 13 apprentices, for a total of 26gp per day, will fill a demand of one suit of full plate per month.
The alternative is to hire a single wizard (unfortunetly you can't hire a fraction of a wizard), who will cost hundreds of gp per day. You will get far more armor than you could ever sell, but the cost is alos much higher.
QED: It doesn't make any financial sense to hire a wizard to fabricate armor. It's overkill, and production will almost immediatly outstrip demand. |
| #97Paladin-s_PrideOct 04, 2014 17:50:22 | One point that seldom gets mentioned here is that if "raw materials" must still be utilized, it means that there is a real and absolute limit to how many suits of plate armor can be made in a given place regardless of how many spell slots a wizard has to devote to it. We assign a gp value to those raw materials as a convenience, but if a wizard is kicking out high-end armor at breakneck speed, it is going to eventually drive the commodity price for raw materials extremely high. This is likely to create a bubble in which speculators begin buying up the supply in hopes of the price spiking still higher. The wizard either runs out of the ability to get raw materials, or the price quickly begins to exceed the value of the armor itself. A wizard already has a near-monopoly on creating impossible wonders the likes of which no one has ever seen by manipulating the strands of existence. One would think focusing on THAT ability is likely to bring them more wealth, presitge, and glory than churning out commodities would. |
| (Reply to #20)Kazadvorn |
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| #99StrillOct 04, 2014 20:11:58 |
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| #100MechaPilotOct 04, 2014 21:07:27 |
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| #101ChrisCarlsonOct 05, 2014 14:01:32 | Amateurs. My Wizard-7/Warlock-7 can make two suits of fullplate every hour-and-twenty-minutes. All day long. I'll be stinklin' rich by Wednesday. |
| #102KarnosOct 05, 2014 19:42:31 | Interesting side point. The PHB says that the fee to cast a level 1-2 spell for an NPC is 10-50 gold per spell. If players could sell their spells at this rate, same as NPCs, you could make infinite money from level 1 on, just by casting the most in-demand 1st level spells as often as possible. A 4th level wizard has a total of 9 usable spell slots, for a minimum of 90gp and potential for as much as 450gp per day just from casting spells. At 6th level, that jumps to 13, for 130gp minimum and 650 gp potential max, not even considering the potential premium for the 3rd level slots.
Except that no NPC would ever buy spells from the PCs at those rates, that is the one minor flaw in the idea.
The point: the prices in the PHB are prices that players can pay to obtain things, not what the market will offer them. The equipment section is perfectly clear- undamaged armor, weapons, and equipment is worth 50% of the listed value if the players are selling it.
So, at best a player can sell full plate for 750gp each, if you follow the RAW. And of course, if you follow RAW, the materials required to craft full plate (with fabricate or any other crafting method) cost 750gp.
I don't see the potential for any profit here, unless you are introducing a lot of houserules to allow PCs to play merchant and sell armor for above wholesale rates. |
| #103MechaPilotOct 05, 2014 19:56:22 |
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| #104Coredump00Oct 05, 2014 22:32:13 | I don't understand the insistence of 'either or' here...
Sure the Mage may want to still adventure... go ahead. But when you come back to town for those 5-10 'downtime days'.... take a few minutes and crank out 10-20 suits of full plate armor.
And while it might (more on this later) take 1/2 the value in materials to craft an item; that often assumes the materials are developed enough to use by an artisan. The example in the book is creating a bridge out of *trees*, not cut and seasoned timbers.
But even paying 1/2, it would be an easy set up, you find a merchant/armourer and have them act as your agent, or you could even hire someone. They do the final 'fitting' work and take a cut. Lets say 250gp. So you still make 500pg per suit. Heck, if the market gets flooded.... make some half plate. Still a cool 2500pg for working 30min a day for 10 days.
Likewise, you could make a *LOT* of chainmail with just one spell, then just need an armourer to take the 'fabric' and turn it into shirts, haubreks and leggings. Heck, barding becomes pretty easy also. One spell would *easily* make enough chainmail for 500 shirts. You spend 12,500gp in materials, and another 2500gp to pay an armourer to cut, assemble, and sell the pieces... and that is 25,000gp of armour sold for 10K profit. And that is from *1* spell. (And I bet you could get a big discount on buying *that* much steel at once. Heck, you could probably use magic to make the steel much faster....)
And that all assumes you even need steel, and not just iron and carbon. If Fabricate can make an entire bridge out of trees (not seasoned timber) or clothes out of plain flax/wool (no need for spinning or weaving) it is reasonable that you could use iron and carbon to make steel armor.)
But thats not all.... Even while adventuring, or traveling... you could carry some metal and glass, and make spyglasses on your downtime. 1000gp a pop. Or even magnifying glasses at 100gp a pop. Sure you would only make 35-40gp per, but evenso, not bad for 10min work.
And what about other items, if you can create a bridge, you can create a longboat.... they come in at 10K each, and you could make the smaller ones with just one spell.
Or take those gold/platinum pieces you find, and craft them into jewelry to sell at the next town.
And this is only from 1 spell..... Consider Continual Flame.... you could easily get 100-200gp each, and even a 3rd level wizard/cleric can use it. At third level, getting 10 days downtime, and turning 1000gp of rubies into 2000-4000gp worth of magical product.
Arcane Lock and Magic Mouth are less 'convenient', but would be pretty decent money-makers for security situations.
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| #105Coredump00Oct 05, 2014 22:39:12 | But I think what all of this adds up to..... DnD is *not* an economics game... it is a 'pretend to be a fantasy hero and kill dragons' game. Therefore the 'logic' of the economy only has to support the game in ways that allow for more fun game play.
Joss Whedon was once asked how 'fast' the Firefly ship was, he said it "Flew at the speed of 'plot'," Or rather, it was as fast as it needed to be to help the story get told. The 'holes' in the DnD economy and crafting system are large enought to chase a purple worm through... but thats kind of the point. They are not meant to be used logically.... but to be used as the backdrop for the heroes to be heroic.
It is completely absurd to think materials cost half of the final product... and quickly falls apart once you look at it. But that is a feature, not a bug....
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| #106UchawiOct 06, 2014 3:58:55 | We can accept what 5E offers in regards to item creation and the economy, but you have to accept the results of it being abused and the DM creating equally arbritrary reasons to reign it in. With 30 years of the game behind us, I think a better system could be devised, even if real world economics is not the goal. It is a good area to be covered by a splat book and hopefully it will look at the big picture when considering the skill and time necessary to create something and magic is not an automatic bypass. |
| #107NevvurOct 06, 2014 5:20:57 | I dislike the oft repeated insinuation that considering the economics of a fantasy setting is exclusive from enjoying that setting, because ewwww boring economics! This ain't no reality simulator!
We can easily ignore the social, political, and economic ramifications of magic, monsters and gods in the interest of focusing on the elements of storytelling we do find fun. However, it's a step away from immersion everytime you say 'just because,' and immersion is a part of what's fun for me. LotR would still be a good story if Tolkien hadn't invested so much time developing the linguistics of his world, but that extra consideration makes it that much better. |
| #108BurrytarOct 06, 2014 6:50:36 | Perhaps master blacksmiths have access to the smelt spell, and master smelters have access to the excavate spell, and master miners have access to the survey spell, and master surveyers who don't have access to the teleport spell are handsomely paying wizards.
Which is just a ridiculous way to say that maybe it already balances out elsewhere in the supply or process chain and is reflected in the price of armor. |
| #109OrethalionOct 06, 2014 6:53:35 |
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| (Reply to #102)JodyJohnson |
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| #111TaejangOct 06, 2014 8:41:02 |
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| #112ChrisCarlsonOct 06, 2014 8:38:49 | One day in the life of Filigree Ironthumb, high elf wizard(transmuter)-7/warlock-7, armorsmith extraordinaire to the rich and famous.
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| #113TaejangOct 06, 2014 8:47:09 |
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| #114RastapopoulosOct 06, 2014 9:19:14 |
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| #115ChrisCarlsonOct 06, 2014 9:29:58 |
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| #116TaejangOct 06, 2014 12:16:02 |
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| (Reply to #111)Sailing_Pirate_Ryan |
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| #118PrawnPowerOct 07, 2014 4:56:31 | Take one small regimented and militaristic economy (based on the Hittites maybe) Replace the farming and crafting with spell casters Sould be more reliable than relying on seasons
That should free up and additional 50+ percent of the populace for military service No need to forage or supply lines while marching as the magic allows for creation of supplies wheh needed
Your quaint little kingdom where the guild tried to keep power through assasination won't last long ....
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| #119OrethalionOct 07, 2014 6:36:47 |
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| #120PrawnPowerOct 07, 2014 6:53:45 |
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| #121OrethalionOct 07, 2014 7:01:27 |
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| #122ChrisCarlsonOct 07, 2014 7:38:52 |
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| #123OrethalionOct 07, 2014 8:01:41 |
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| #124rampantOct 07, 2014 10:00:02 | It's not really unscrupulous is it? I mean they have the skills so presumably they put in the work to get them, they just have a sped up manufacturing process, it's why in the real world factories bagan to push out traditional artisans for a lot of stuff.
Create food and water doesn't allow you to stock pile, the big economy disrupters are animate dead and the ressurection type spells. Animate gives you the ability to create a permanent (albeit unskilled) work force with very minimal upkeep costs (there's a bit of initial investment but once you get them up and around you can keep them going for free), you can debate the issues of adventuring with them all day but as far as digging trenches, mucking stables, and dragging loads they're more than adequate, they never get tired, demand more pay, wanna see their families, or moan about their working conditions, you don't have to feed them or even house them beyond maybe a simple enclosure to keep them from wandeirng off while you sleep. The ressurection spells (especially now that they don't drain levels/constitution) mean that anyone with sufficient wealth, and friends who aren't complete a-holes can come back as long as there's a caster around with access to the spell. Even old age need not be the end of one's mortal existance if you can cough up the extra money for reincarnate and don't mind a new body (male half-orc berserker to female high elf berserker was a bit awkard for the first year or so). So in any place where a caster known to have such a power has settled down, people will probably try very hard to set up a 'life insurance policy" where by they have gold set aside for their eventual demise. This is very hard for say peasants, but large families, or skiled craftsmen might be able to set aside the funds to pull it off, once they do however they get into a spiral, as they live longer they become more skilled or at least the familiy gets larger rather than lossing manpower, so it becomes easier for them to make the money for raise/reincarnate, eventually they can get to a point where there's more business than a single castercan handle as the population explodes, and you have to train up more casters.
Back in 3e reincarnate was cheaper and easier than any of the other options, when one of my druids retired i had him set up shop near some barony and make his living selling cheap reincarnates.
20 years later the barony was a mid-sized kingdom. The baron/king was on his fifth body thanks to assassins and had reincarnated as a female dwarf this time, complete with beard. They had druid training as part of the public education system, and the average peasant was on their second or third life leading to a rather interesting set of social mores, especially regarding marriage. They were also skilled laborers or craftsbeings given they now had extra time and incentive to learn. The abundance of motivated skilled labor meant that new businesses and ventures were popping up constantly, and since dying didn't open up a spot in society everyone was more likely to make their own way rather than try to take over a spot that might not be open for centuries. This of course meant that the cities and towns expanded and eventually they expanded their borders right up to their neighbors, and when the neighboring populations got wind of how things worked for the kingdom with the ogres and lizardfolk walking thorugh town, and pixes married to half-orcs, and all that nuttiness... things got complicated. Jealousy was abig component because the 'freakshow' kingdom had sucha robust and booming economy. |
| #125ChrisCarlsonOct 07, 2014 10:09:00 |
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| #126rampantOct 07, 2014 10:30:28 | YEah but there's only two of them.
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| #127ChrisCarlsonOct 07, 2014 10:47:32 | Um, yeah. I, like, already said that? There's also zero downside. Unlike animating the dead.
It's also a 1st-level spell vs. 3rd-level spell. So who can do it (and how many casters may be available to do it) is very different. |
| #128TaejangOct 07, 2014 13:30:27 | Any spell that allows a Naruto-like shadow clone? Seems like that'd be the way to go. |
| #129XguildOct 07, 2014 14:02:45 | The bases for this conversation is "Its so easy to be a power gamer, why isn't everyone, look how easy it is you can to XYZ with ZYX and make XYZ gold!!".
Anyone who has issues in their games with a spell like fabricate, doesn't have issues with the mechanics, he has issues with his players who clearly don't get what role-playing is. |
| #130DrycanthOct 07, 2014 14:29:48 | Will go back and finish reading through the posts, just wanted to put out my inital thoughts on the spell. The spell would not craft a suit of armor as a suit of armor is not all made of steel. It has leather straps, iron rivits, and brass buckles. As well as needing chainmail and a padded under garment to be worn under the armor. Since the spell only allows for you to craft material of a single type of material you would not be able to make plate.
You could make chainmail fairly easy. so less profit per cast but since it is a readily available armor it would probably not kill the economy with its lower price and since it is all made of steel it would fit in the spells restrictions. You could also do this with leather or hide armor which may or may not be worth you time. |
| #131rampantOct 07, 2014 14:43:48 |
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| #132OrethalionOct 07, 2014 15:11:54 |
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| (Reply to #132)rampant |
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| #134OrethalionOct 07, 2014 16:31:21 |
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| #135ShasarakOct 07, 2014 16:40:23 |
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| #136OrethalionOct 07, 2014 16:52:43 |
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| #137rampantOct 07, 2014 17:57:36 | 1. You need both a leather and cloth component to make full plate, so reduce how many per day, chainmail might work.
2. You still pay materials cost so that means you aren't gonna churn these out any faster than you get the materials, even if you use fabricate to speed up that process you're not using said castings to make finished product, and the leather and cloth still needs to come from somewhere which presumably you have to buy. You're not gonna be getting out of paying for basic costs of doing business.
3. Furthermore WHo buys that much armor? Even if you had enough suits of full plate for everyone in an army you wouldn't equip them with it because most of them don't have the ability to move in it, much less fight.
4. Fabricate makes the wizard the go to guy for rush jobs, that's about it.
5. I mean if you absolutely object to this, just let them sell a few suits and then declare that there simply isn't demand for much more. I mean seriously unless you drp the price of your finished product you're not gonna have any real long term advantage against the other shops. It's mundane armor, anyone who has the money to pay full price for it can get it form someone elseand it'll be just as good from bob the blacksmith as it is from you.
YEs you could slowly drive down the price or armor or similar goods in a small area, but even a high level wizard doesn't have neough spells per day to make more than a moderate dent in the local economy, unless he gains a monoploy on one or more of the materials involved and that's a separate issue entirely. |
| #138ChakravantOct 08, 2014 10:24:19 | Actually to me, Fabricate makes total sense. In our nonmagical world, chain and plate takes an extensive amount of time and effort, enough that you couldn't just walk up to "Ye Olde Armour Shoppe", drop down 20 gp, and walk out with some chain. It might very well have cost more than 20 gp in labor, often needs to be adjusted to the person, and it is far too valuable to just have hanging on hooks like clothes at The Gap. Wizards with Fabricate are the reason armor in D&D is as cheap and plentiful as it is. "Magic" helps explain why D&D worlds have economies that differ from our own. Magic has already driven down the price of armor and similar goods. That's why they are as cheap as they are in the PHB. |
| #139XguildOct 08, 2014 11:18:20 |
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| #140ChrisCarlsonOct 08, 2014 11:55:12 |
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| #141rampantOct 08, 2014 13:55:55 | What's wrong with baking cookies?
Anyone whose read Nodwick knows how powerful those can be. |
| #142JenksOct 08, 2014 15:47:49 |
Disallow Fabricate or have the spell last a limited time frame before reverting to nothing/raw materials.
/thread |
| #143ShasarakOct 08, 2014 17:22:27 |
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| #144MonsterEnvyOct 08, 2014 17:51:19 | People are still missing the fact that along with needing the materials the Wizard has to actully know how to make the stuff normally in order to fabricate it. |
| #145PolarisOct 08, 2014 18:10:21 |
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| #146KarnosOct 08, 2014 19:08:33 | Raw material to craft an item is equal to half of the retail value, per RAW.
A PC selling armor, weapon, or other items can sell them for half of retail value, RAW.
A PC Wizard can fabricate and sell armor, but the material cost and the gross income from selling the completed armor are exactly equal, RAW.
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| #147StrillOct 08, 2014 19:12:47 |
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| #148PolarisOct 08, 2014 19:13:17 |
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| #149KarnosOct 08, 2014 19:19:56 |
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| #150KarnosOct 08, 2014 19:23:44 |
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| #151PolarisOct 08, 2014 19:39:08 |
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| #152rampantOct 08, 2014 19:50:53 | To get to a high enough level to cast the spell for starters, to say nothing of increasing your proficiency bonus.
If a wizard wants to settle down and run a shop he can settle down and run a shop. Most characters who get to a certain level have the skills or abilities to settle down and make money in a much less life threatening way, although the wizard and cleric options on this front may be the most dramatic.
If nothing else they can teach, open a bar, or go into politics if they're really desparate.
Even low level PCs generally have the ability to make a modest, if not aways entirely legal, living without leaving town.
Very few peopleadventure because they can't make a living otherwise, they adventure because the pay-off is bigger, or faster, or because the life-style appeals to them, or they have some specific quest, or they're running away from something, or they're psychotic, or an outcast in society, or maybe they hate kobolds, the point is that normal people don't generally become adventurers if they can help it.
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| #153KarnosOct 08, 2014 20:16:26 |
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| #154PolarisOct 08, 2014 20:45:17 |
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| #155ShasarakOct 08, 2014 21:24:48 |
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| #156PolarisOct 08, 2014 21:28:58 |
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| #157NimrodVanHallOct 09, 2014 0:23:02 | In my campeign the level 12 wizard had better things to do with his 4th level spelslots: on a normal downtime day he would cast four Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctums to fortify their castle, a Teleportation circle in order te get a permanent circle near the castle, then some sendings to communicate with the other border fortresses, and he needed some spells in reserve in case **** happend. spells like controll water to manipulate the moat. Already in possesion of a castle and all living a royal lifestyle, they descided to use their personel wealth to hire a small army of Blacksmiths to equip their soldiers with uniform fullplates. Thanks to the spells of the wizard working in conjunction with the cleric the parties fortress was nigh unassailible, even against teleporting or planeshifting foes.
you no longer need Gold to purchase your required magic items so after a certain point gold becomes irrelevant and there are other more relevant things to do with your spells |
| (Reply to #136)arnwolf666 |
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| #159KarnosOct 09, 2014 5:52:34 |
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| #160TaejangOct 09, 2014 6:51:40 | This thread keeps going in circles. It is kind of amusing to watch.
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| #161OrethalionOct 09, 2014 6:59:39 |
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| #162CaptainpandabearOct 16, 2014 5:44:17 | It's been stated previously in this thread, but I agree with the notion pretty strongly. Simply put, a wizard of that caliber probably views churning out suits of platemail as beneath him. Wizards in general should be rare; wizards with that much power should be rarer; wizards with that much power and both the skill and inclination to manufacture platemail should be even rarer still. |
| #163dmgorgonOct 16, 2014 11:08:40 | I think the blacksmith's guild would gather and have that spell caster killed.
It's largely a function of the magic level of a campaign setting. In my games, magic is common for the PCs, but rare for the campaign world. There is no need to hand out magical items and spells to the general population simply because the PCs have access to large collection of magic and powerful spells.
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| #164dmgorgonOct 16, 2014 11:23:20 |
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| #165rampantOct 16, 2014 11:55:24 | ... Ok then why do the PCs get to keep gold from their dungeon runs?
Put simply there's no need to install that kind of heavy handed control because while fabricate does offer a speed advantage, that's not enough to wreck an economy. Fabricate doesn't let you make something from nothing, or cheat the crafting rules in anyway except speed, adsimply operates on too small a scale to be turned into a big business, without having to pay for mid level mages as employees who will probably be more interested in adventuring or researching.
As far as I can tell it just lets wizard crafters speed things up enough that they can craft during down time at a decent clip.
Fabricate isn't gonna magically conjure a market for that much armor, or make your armor more attractive than the competition's. |
| #166ShasarakOct 16, 2014 13:07:30 |
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