Fantasy Rome 1600AD
Back in the days of 2E they released various books supporting D&D play in different eras of Earth. They also had dials supporting various levels of magic in the setting from magic doesn’t work full stop through to a little bit of magic or magic levels typical to a D&D game. The 2E sourcebook The Glory of Rome covered the Roman Empire while other books such as Combat and Tactic had equipment for different eras of play up to the 17th century.
I thought I would put up a thread for a D&D game set on Earth under an alternate timeline/reality where the Roman Empire survives until the 1600th century and where magic exists although towards the lower end of the scale than something like FR or even Greyhawk. Spellcaster classes still exist they are just a little bit more rare and/or suffer some form of in game persecution perhaps with the exception of Clerics.
Now for Rome to have survived until the 1600’s one would have to overcome the challenges the real life Rome faced. My point of divergence here form real life would be Rome avoids the civil wars of the 3rd Century which lead to the breakdown of the Roman economy and the division of the Empire both into the eastern and western empire and succession empires such as the Palmyrene Empire during the crisis of the third century. IN real life the Byzantines managed to survive until 1453 but the Byzantine term is a modern invention as they saw themselves as a political continuation of the Roman Empire. They were also refered to as Romans by the Arabs after the arrival of Islam in the 7th century.
One area of magic that would need to be looked at would be cleric magic and monotheism. In real life the Roman Empire became Christian although paganism in the empire survived until the 6th century at least. The pagan deities are in the PHB in terms of domains, the monotheism religions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism could have any domain or offer several domains to pick from. However in an alternate fantasy Rome there is no guarantee Rome would switch to Christianity. Here are some following scenarios.
1. One of the religions is right and the others are wrong. This would mean that the Pagans or one (or more) of the monotheistic faiths is correct. One of the faiths has no real clerics, whatever faith is “real” in a fantasy context becomes the state religion of Rome.
2. All faiths are correct. In D&D faith drives clerical magic. The monotheistic faiths could exist and get spells alongside the pagans but would likely regard them as heathens at best using magic while the one true faith has miracles. The monotheistic God would not obviously belong to the official state religion of the Roman Empire unless one of the Roman Emperors converted as in real life.
Without the crisis of the 3rd century however and the follow on civil wars of Constantine I would assume that Rome would stay pagan although Christianity could still exist (and grant spells). 2E did but in sub classes for the monotheistic faiths in The Crusades sourcebook.
So my fantasy Rome avoids the crisis of the 3rdcentury and the civil conflict of religion which happened at the same time. The borders of Rome are more or less the borders of the Empire at its height. A stronger and more unified Roman state manages to survive the 5th century. Note the Roans were not invincible and inthis scenario I assume they do not manage to conquer the Parthians or drastically expands the Empire in Germania. At best the Elbe would be the new frontier beyond the Rhine and they may over run Mesopotamia or the Picts in modern day Scotland.
The migrations of the 5th century still happen the Roman state however manages to survive. In my alternate history though the Romans still land in Germania and the Balkens (north of the Danube). I would have them lose Germania, Pannonia (Hungary) and Dacia (Bulgaria/Romania). Constantinople never becomes the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire or at best a regional capital/port develops on the Golden Horn.
So crisis averted Rome has a reasonably quiet 6th century with no major wars of expansion and no Reconquista needed. Knowledge of things such as roads, aqueducts and concrete endure in the west and long term most languages in Western Europe are derived from Latin. Germania however was lost in the 4th century and in effect becomes a western Parthia. Rome consolidates the remaining parts of the Empire with the Parthians and later the Sassanid’s of Persia being the main rivals. The Roman army still reforms with more cavalry being added along with the development of Cataphracts.
Sassinid Cataphract
During the 7th century however war breaks out against the Sassanid’s again just like IRL. Rome wins this war but exhausts itself. In Arabia the Prophet Muhammed spreads Islam and after his death his successors expand into Roman lands. Could a unified Rome defeat Islam? It is possible I suppose and in an alternate timeline even the ERE could perhaps been victorious. I think however Islam would have over run the Middle East, North Africa and Persia as in real life. The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates still happen but Islamic expansion is checked in Morocco and Anatolia. Assuming Rome had survived this long and maintains some sort of navy the Umayyads caliphate fails to expand in Spain.
The Sassanid’s threat in the east has now been replaced by a larger Islamic caliphate. However in the west there is also a better organised Rome to deal with things like raids into the eastern Mediterranean. There is no siege of Byzantium (Constantinople IRL) and no second Greek dark age. The theme system is still established in Anatolia though. The Egyptian Pantheon worship dies out just like IRL just 200 years later as it is replaced by Islam instead of Christianity. Christians as people of the book are better off under Islam than under the pagan Emperors, and most Christians are in the east anyway since Rome is still pagan.
In the west there is no large scale migration of hostile tribes. There may be some dynastic struggles for the throne and even the odd civil war but nothing on the scale of the crisis of the 3rd Century. With the loss of Egypt and the valuable provinces in North Africa however there is a real decline and a change in the Roman diet due to the loss of Grain shipment. The real life Rome of the 3rd-5th centuries now happens to some extent in the 8th and 9th centuries. Civil war breaks out over rival claims for the Imperial throne.
The Gallic Empire secedes from Rome provoking civil war. Gaul, Britannia and what is left of Germania defect along with the Imperial legions under a Frankish warlord. German tribes by now have formed a proto nation similar to early Bulgaria and Hungary. Charles Martel and eventually Charlemagne manage to form a Frankish kingdom that includes the old provinces of Germania. In the aftermath of Charlemagne’s death and the chaos of the break up of his empire Viking raids start happening in western Europe as the Vikings plunder the west. Rome manages to retain Narbonne (southern France) linking the Empire up with Hispania. Roman Republicans also settle Venice which becomes a rich city within the Roman Empire.
Pagan Vikings settle Britannia and war breaks out with various kingdoms in Britain while various kingdoms rise and Fall in modern France, Germany and the low lands. The 11th Century rolls around and due to Islamic raids in Anatolia and the eastern Mediterranean Rome launches a series of Reconquista attempts in the Levant which has a bit more success than the historical Crusades. Turks also start migrating into Anatolia and the Romans suffer a disastrous defeat at the battle of Manzikert losing most of central Anatolia to the Turks.
Eventually however after a series of reconquered Roman provinces in the east are lost to Muslim armies with the last outposts falling to the Muslims in the 13th century. Islamic power however is shattered by the Mongols ransacking Baghdad. The Mongols also raid into Hungary another former Roman province provoking discussions on message board’s years later about Rome vs Mongols. Gunpowder also reaches Europe via the Mongols.
During the 14th century Turkish power grows in Anatolia and a leader known as Osman rises. The Black Death also reaches Europe and while devastating is not as bad as the real black death due to things like basic sanitation and clean water in Roman cities. The Ottoman Turks start to rise to greatness in Anatolia before being smashed by Tamerlane. Roman power in the east continues to erode due to the rise of the Turks who manage to cross the Bosphorus. Islamic Khanates in the modern Russia also rise to prominence while the minor nation of Muscovy annexes Novgorod far from the reaches of the Roman border. Muscovy however follows the Roman faith.
In 1453 The Ottoman Tuks seize the chance and capture Byzantium a major trade port and regional city in the East. Byzantium is later made an imperial capital of the new Ottoman Empire which pushes deep into the Roman Balkens. A new imperial dynasty of the Hapsburgs has been arising in former Roman lands. Rome itself has been reduced to Italia, parts of Dalmatia, Narbonne and the Iberian Peninsula. New nations have arisen such as Francia and England in the west, various German states in Germania, and the Hapsburgs in central Europe.
With the fall of Byantium to the Turks various ways are sought to reach India. Eventually the Americas are discovered but not by Christopher Columbus but by Iberians which is part of the Roman Empire. The Aztecs and Incas are conquered by Rome while Roman merchants form cities such as Venice and Genoa go into relative decline. The Hapsburgs also end up on the throne of Rome and ally with them. The renaissance never happens as such as Roman thought never left in the 1st place but the influx of New World gold leads to a revitalization of of Roman power. However in the late 16th century Francia gets involved in the Italia Wars.
By 1529 the Ottomans advance on Vienna and are eventually repulsed. In 1571 a Roman fleet proves victorious against the Turks at the Battle of Lepanto. English pirates however lead the Roman state to declare war on England. In 1588 The Roman Armada sets sail to reconquer Britannia for the Empire which results in a massive defeat. By 1600 Rome has managed to survive and is still a great power. However in the North Francia and England are also major powers with the English in particular being a challenge on the open seas. Sweden also has some potential at interfering in the northern Europe as a defender of the Nordic Faith. In the East the Ottoman Turks are perhaps the most powerful nation while the Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth and Russia have been formed.
Rome 1600AD
Roman New World Colonies
Do remember the "expositus" was very normal in that age, the no-wished newborns were left, not in orphanage or convent but int the street. And the "relations" with underage ones... were allowed, more it they were slaves. The infanticide wasn´t really allowed but it was very common. Even the Jew comunity in the Roman Empire was a main minority because they didn´t kill their children.
Forget scientist progress. Nature was explained with fairies and genies. The knowledge wasn´t to be shared, but to be exclucive secrets by ocultist cults. The ancient wisdom by classic philosophers only could be transmited, but never questioned.
Roman empire suffered some epidemics (Christians survived better because they helped their sicks). The cities were... there wasn´t sewage system!!! and the smell was horrible. That is the reason rich people would rather to live in the country. The falling of buidlings in the cities was so normal like now the traffic accidents.
* What about divine spellcaster classes? and fantasy monsters?
I don't really see any "fantasy" elements here. Looks more like alternate history Rome to me. And probably one that too much thought has put into because the state of the entire globe is generally not relevant to a campaign.
If I were going to do a Roman-like fantasy campaign, I would think less about foreign nations and even considering whether the world much looks like ours.
Probably jettison the nordic races of D&D (elves, dwarves, gnomes, goblins, etc.) and replace them with ones taken from Roman mythology-- Faun, Centaurs, Minotaurs, Dryads,, maybe Merfolk (though how to incorporate the in most games would be tricky) and maybe Gorgons... though clearly not the powerful versions in current D&D with their full array of magical powers and high attributes, rather instead create new human-level versions.
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
Hebitsuikaza wrote:
If we are talking about a fantasy-history D&D setting where Christians and pagans are togethers... the Christians priests wouldn´t use FXs, because that is too far from humility, but they would be the best spell-breakers or counter-spelling. Only a pray and goodbay to magic damage resistance. And they would enjoy some special resistance for attack from supernatural creatures... for example in the Roman Circus, the Christians wouldn´t be eaten by lions, but by ghouls/zombies... but after they would be "poisoned", because the martyr's blood and flesh hurt undeads and infernal outsiders...
I would change some things, for example Kratos, from the videogames (why not also Saint Seiya anime/manga?), would be present, and some pagan deity.... would became Christian! Minerva would be one of them. Maybe Heracles/Hercules ( = Hera's glory), or a grandson with his same name. Hera would help Christians to take revenge againts Zeu. Qetzacoalts also would become Christian.
Another idea is the conflict between different pantheons... Olimpians versus Egypst and Asgardians... and the ancient deities from Middle East may be interesting antagonists.
Medusa would be a evil goddess..(the idea is from the old anime "Pygmalion", not from Kid Icarus videogames, but that doesn´t mind).
Any surprise? Athena/Minerva and Guan Yu (Chinese war god).... they have a special relation of unresolved sexual tension.
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
In a fantasy setting the good Christians aren´t allowed to pratice occultism, but in the fantasy setting where natural laws are different Christian characters could use paranormal powers but not supernatural powers but the "charismas" "special blessing, gifts of graces to help another people. The "paranormal" powers aren't againts natural laws, and in a world where no-sentient beings like plants and animals can use magic powers... humanoids could use "paranormal" powers. For example Bobby "Iceman" Drake (half-Jew, half-Cathoilic) and Kurt "Nightcrawler" Wagner, are mutants from X-Men, with paranormal powers (they obey natural laws, but in their universe natural laws may be different).
How to explaine it better? (English isn´t my naive languange). Let's imagine a Jew Biblical judge, a champion who serve God, yes, somebody like Chaim "Seraph" Lavon from DC. This character couldn't use divine gifts to create FXs, Special Effects because that may become pride sin. That is the reason I don´t imagine a pagan vs Christian (or Jew) cleric's fight like a scene from Final Fantasy (with lots of sparking lights, runes floating in the air and that type of things)... but more like the pagan wants to cast spells but his magic works worse... and the Christian, only praying, without lights or special effects.
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In my setting to be more politically correct, Jews and Christians didn´t exist, because Abraham wasn´t chosen by God, but other person, with a different plan (mmmm maybe somebody like Zoroaster)... this alternative timeline had got somebody like Jospeh, who explained dreams to the pharaon, but the rest of the history is different, Moses wasn´t necesary, because Joseph's children weren't slaves. We could name this group, the "Samaritans", very close Jew and Christians, but without Moses' law.
In Egypt there is a religious conflict between Amon and Aton..
In 2E I think Chrstians did have spells and special abilities but also had the while thou shalt not kill thing for their priests and they lost their powers if they did. I think the Knightly orders had an exception.
To be a Christian warrior is to be at the same time the lamb and the lion.
In the 17th chapter of Exodus, Moses use "divine power" to win a battle. Samson was a warrior, with lethal force. Saint Joan of Arc was the leader of an army. And I remember there were a whole legion of martyrs, the saint Maurice and the Theban Legion.
Have you thought about the "Ridda Wars"? And the main antagonists would be the ones who self-proclaimed prophets, Muasylimah and his wife Sajah, Aswad Ansi and Saf Ibn Sayyad... or "evil goddess", Uzza, Al-at and Manat.
Another option is that Earth to be a "hollow world", a demiplane created by gods... and different hollow worlds fight each other for the followers-believers.
* My opinion is to roleplaying a good Christian character, magic with links to ocultism or esotiricism wouldn´t be allowed for Christians, but they could use "fantasy technology", like clockpunk machines, or fantasy alchemy. It is different, because a thing is supernatural magic what breaks natural laws, and "paranormal" magic what obeys naturals laws where are different to our reality. How to explain? Christians could use the "technology" from Flintstones cartoon, or taming monsters with superpowers like pokemons, because those aren´t actions againts Nature.
Zardnaar wrote:
Now I remember a 2nd AD&D sourcerbook "Legend and Lore" where King Arthur and Knigths of the Round Table are legendary heroes...
Saint George, the classic dragon-slayer... OK, now we can use Christians divine spellcasters with lethal force..
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
I would just ignore modern religions and instead of Islam have the Persian and Babylonian deities, not that I think there is anything wrong with what you are doing. Druids could be where they should be as part of the Celtic Religion. There's nothing wrong with King Arthur serving the ancient Celtic deities or being the one to bring the Roman gods to Britain, or being the one to bring the Celtic gods into the Roman pantheon. Rome absorbed alot of deities from their neighbors. Yahweh was a recognized deity of the Roman pantheon, as were the egyptian gods.
It be fun to explore the effects the existence of magic and magical creatures would have on actual history.
For instance, I understand the roman civil wars basically started when Julius Ceasar got killed. With magic around, being killed doesn't have to stop an emperor from ruling. What if he was turned into a mummy, and ruled for a few hundred years more? His iron rule would explain the civil war not happening. You can tie this in with the rise of christianity and give them an aversion to undead. Around 300 AC, Julius Ceasar is destroyed by Constantine the Great, who could be a christian cleric and explains why christianity becomes the state-religion.
In the 1300's you also have the spread of the Black Plague. In a world with magic that disease would be far better to contain, with cure disease spells an option. Then again, a magical Black Plague could have all kind of magical effect, like raising the ones killed as zombies, being resistant to magical healing because it's a curse by an actual god, or it could spread through the use of magic instead of vermin. If spread through the use of magic, most of the victims would be casters, creating the Dark Ages, where magic is mostly lost and the practice of it is feared to bring back the plague.
The renaissance could be (amongst other things) a revival of magic. Da Vinci's notes could be level 7+ spells instead of all kinds of contraptions.
And if you set the campaign in the 1.600's, you have to do something with the discovery of the Americas as well. Both the continent with shamans (druids?) and the continent with the human sacrifice demanding gods.
And there's the effect magic would have on real-life innovations. Would cannons appear in a world where fireballs and other destructive spells exist? Would muskets instead be wands of firebolt?
Let's imagine in this world the gods are like superheroes from comics, or like alien lords from Stargate.... Oh, my god!... Then Wonder Woman would be the demigoddes "Admirabilia". What if Athena meets saint Catherine of Alexandria and she converts? Or Heracles is going to fight againts Maccabees but the surprise is him to be defeated by the himself Samson.
Maybe the most politically correct option is all Kingdom of Israel would be a "Schöringer demiplane", like a mystery, an alternative timeline, a little pocket universe where there isn´t divine magic...and in the same time and place there is a second demiplane, Palestine, where the patriarch didn't exit... but one of the pre-Islamic deities was chosen by God for a different plan. And Meca would be two demiplane, one without Mohammed, and a second timeline where Ibrahim, the son, was the first caliph because older bother was killed because... That means the real religions were born in our real world, but after somebody traveled to that parallel universe (created by pagan deities) to preach monotheism.
We could add more things, for example time-travellers from the future, and a alien mothership of fraals (little gray men).
So far I see one problem for your campaign idea. With the world basically known and inhabited, you have not left any room for the "here be monsters" part of the map. D&D is ususally about fighting orcs, giants, dragons, minotaurs, and various fantasy animals and evil humanoid races. Unless all your PC action is going to be in far off uncharted Africa your adventures get limited to political intrigue, wild wolf hunts, and fighting political wars against other PC type races. Oh and the opccasional undead or summoned demon I suppose.
I was jonsing for a Roman Empire in my campaign too but I just made up a parallel one (the Telrini Empire) that wore roman style armor, used pilems and gladiuses, etc. but never had a Christian phase as I really didn't want to mix my faith into my game antics.
WorBlade wrote:
Another option is a solar system where Earth/Gaia isn´t the one planet with life, and the other races are from those planets... for example Svartálfaheim and Alfheim, from Vicking myths, would be new planets where elves live. Benden would be the homeworld of pharaonics gods..
And there were portals towards worlds without humans but creatures from dinosaurs (mesozoic) and ice age.