Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lawolf Dec 10, 2014 12:56:53	So it is no secret that I don't like the way feats and ability score increases are designed. A number of feats feel like mandatory picks for certain character archetypes. Others feel like the provide great RP potential, but are completely overshadowed by the calibur of the combat oriented feats. Another problem is that feats and ability scores are interchangeable, which leads to players focusing on the most powerful feats, followed by ability score increases, and leaving little or no room to actually pick the feats that truly differentiate one character from another.   So I propose these two changes for the people who feel similarly.   1. You cannot increase your ability scores when you gain an Ability Score Improvement, instead you must choose a feat. However, you can still choose a feat that increases one of your ability scores.   2. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 you gain a +1 bonus to ability score of your choice. This cannot increase that ability score beyond 20.
#2 cowleymen Dec 10, 2014 13:15:00	I would do it the other way. You get an ability score increase where listed on your class, and then get feats at 4, 8, 12, 16.  Feats are very powerful, and your fighters are goingt to get every feat that is combat helpful for their style, and still get almost the same amount of regular RP powerful/useful feats as well.   To me the biggest problem, hardest problem with it as it is RAW, is do you take a feat or ASI at 4th level. After that first choice its usually much easier for me.
#3 Emerikol Dec 10, 2014 20:08:23	I'm probably of the school of thought that could just dispense with attribute increases completely.
#4 FFSAA Dec 10, 2014 20:19:09	Well at least this way MCing doesn't mean your character is dumber/weaker etc. than non-MC characters.
#5 Lawolf Dec 10, 2014 21:48:37	Emerikol wrote:
#6 bonethug0108 Dec 11, 2014 4:11:51	I would also keep the stat bumps to class levels(maybe letting the fighter and rogue take stats or feats at their additional levels), and add feats every 4 character levels(maybe even 1 at first level; Variant Human gets 2). This still keeps MC from becoming super min/max by holding the bumps back.   Also, an 18 and a 15 is only a difference of +2 so it isn't a huge power gap(though a gap nonetheless). If you are worried about power gaps you shouldn't be doing rolls anyway. Way too much swing in the dice. Array or point buy is more than fair.
#7 Emerikol Dec 11, 2014 5:43:54	While I like to use rolling methods that produce only decent characters, I consider the fact there are variations a feature. No party would naturally have perfectly balanced characters. The fact that all of my characters are good enough though makes sense as the others wouldn't risk adventuring.
#8 bonethug0108 Dec 11, 2014 6:02:08	Yeah when I said "more than fair" I was implying "cookie cutter"(though not necessarily in a bad context), especially with an array. But like I said if you are worried about balance that's one way to keep the power gap in check. There are ways to do that with rolls also(just have everyone within a few of modifier points of each other total).
#9 Emerikol Dec 11, 2014 6:24:50	I require the rolls to meet some minimum standard but I allow for better rolls.  That way everyone has a decent character.  If someone gets lucky and rolls really well the rest of the party is happy they have a stronger character in the group.   The difference is hardly a big deal though.   My characters and I are not consumed with balance envy.
#10 Trance-Zg Dec 11, 2014 7:26:52	bonethug0108 wrote:
#11 Lawolf Dec 11, 2014 8:10:04	bonethug0108 wrote:
#12 Adjule Dec 11, 2014 9:27:55	If you and the other players care about DPR, then you have the default when it comes to feats and ability increases. If no one cares about that, then a +2 difference just doesn't really matter.   Like Emerikol, I am of the school of thought of no ability score increases outside of the feats that have them baked in. I would probably end up doing it like that for any game I would run. I would probably also go with an ability score cap of 18. That would make the magic items that give a Strength or other stat of 19 actually mean something, like the Gauntlets of Ogre Power.   But I feel like I am of the minority when it comes to not giving a damn about how beastly my character is when it comes to combat.
#13 bonethug0108 Dec 11, 2014 10:24:13	In the grand scheme of things +2 isn't a huge deal. Sure if you are min/maxing and worried about DPR it will be. For your average campaign most people won't notice a thing. I'm not saying it's nothing but min/maxers will obviously complain about being "behind".
#14 Brock_Landers Dec 11, 2014 11:13:50	To be apparent, it seems you do not dig 5th Ed, seems you simply want 4.5.
#15 ClockworkNecktie Dec 11, 2014 12:36:04	OP sounds fine to me. I'm glad it's not the default because I like the option of no-feat characters, but if you share Lawolf's opinion this solution is simple enough.   Worth noting too that monks and most gish builds would be a bit weaker since they can't get both their main stats to 20.
#16 FFSAA Dec 11, 2014 12:46:16	bonethug0108 wrote:
#17 NineInchNall Dec 11, 2014 13:41:00	bonethug0108 wrote:
#18 Brock_Landers Dec 11, 2014 13:32:55	NineInchNall wrote:
#19 Lawolf Dec 11, 2014 14:48:07	ClockworkNecktie wrote: