So, I'm willing to give 5E a chance. The creators are professional game designers. They know how games work. Who am I? I'm just a player. I haven't sold a game. So I went out and bought the Starter Set to give it that chance. I liked the Basic PDF enough; so HP is low at 1st level, so maybe I'll start at higher levels. I told my wife, who has been playing with me since we met at a game 10 years ago, that the game will really hinge on the monsters for me.
Last week, I got real worked up over the Hobgoblin. We were looking at it not entirely in a vaccume; we had the PC stats for 1st level, we just didn't have the encounter balance calculator. Well, now we have more. You see, page 55 of the starter set adventure says:
"An appropriately equipped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a creature that has a challenge rating equal to their level without suffering any casualties."
Without suffering any casualties.
Any casualties.
I'm highlighting that point.
So, PCs start with 6 to 13 hp, and 13 is a real stretch (you'd have to start with a 15 and put it in Con, then give it a +1 bump, to start with Con 16). Wizards will likely have 7 hp. Fighters will have 11 or 12.
Player ACs range from 15 to 18.
Now, the Hobgoblin worried some of us. With 18 AC, 11 hp, and a potential to deal 1d8+1+2d6 damage (when an ally is helping), some of us were a little worried that their average damage (12.5) was more than average PC HP. We were worried because the hobgoblin was CR 1/2, and thus we assumed a party of 4 could face 2 of them (who would then have access to their +2d6 Martial Advantage ability). Some tried to assuage our fears by pointing out that we didn't know the encounter design mechanics.
Well now we sort of do. The Bugbear is CR 1. It is worth 200 xp. The Hobgoblins are CR 1/2 and are worth 100 xp. So 2 Hobgoblins equal one Bugbear.
So the Hobgoblins still look scary to me. The bugbear looks downright terrifying to me.
CR 1. AC 16 (remember, players have something like +5 to hit to start). 27 HP. 27. Yup, 27. Their attack is +4 to hit for 2d8+2 damage. That's right, 2d8+2. That's 11 damage on average. That's not even looking at Surprise Attack, which grants another 2d6 if they get to "surprise a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat". Not even looking at Surprise Attack, the bugbear will, generally speaking, drop many 1st level PCs (all except the Fighter really) in one hit. It can still drop the fighter in one hit if it rolls slightly above average. And it's going to take one of the Wizard's two spells to do anything close to dropping it before it can attack an ally.
+4 to hit gives them a 35% chance to hit the fighter (a fighter with a shield that is), and as high as 50% against a mage with mage armor up (taking up one of those spell slots already).
I'm very concerned. Now, yes, I haven't played the game yet (outside of the playtest, which my group found to be obscenely easy except for a nasty caster fight), but I'd like to hope that my experience with games affords me some ability to look at stats and decide how things might turn out. But I don't even call this swingy. I call this problematic.
I think the issue is them misusing the word casualty, when they meant death.
I can't help but find it mildly amusing that everyone was complaining that the playtest monsters were too easy and yet now they're complaining that the finished monsters are too hard.
All of this is why I am seriously considering giving the characters an extra Hit Die worth of HP at first level.
Figthers would be: 10+6+Con= 16-19
Wizards would be: 6+4+Con= 10-13
Clerics and Rogues would be 8+5+Con= 13-16
This will come with an extra Hit Die of course. Which also solves the first typo in the Basic Rules that doesn't allow first level characters to regain any Hit Die.
The designers have said that there are going to be alternate HP rules in the main rules, but this should tide me and mine over till then at least. That being said it is a little sad to see the basic free PDF (the rule set that will be most conductive to new groups) using the least forgiving HP rules. I feel new groups are going to have a hard time getting into a game where their characters die all the time.
I think this is awesome. Players are morons that constantly charge into battle despite the odds. This will serve to weed them out and make them think twice before taking on the bugbear and his hobgoblin buddies. They will learn terms like "truce", "surrender" and "parley". Think of the difficulty of monsters as increasing the player's vocabulary 
Just looking over the probabilities, even against a party of 4 shield wielding fighters, the Bugbear has a 36% chance of dropping one of them; the fighters have a 50% chance to hti the bugbear and deal 7.5 damage on a hit; that works out to 15 average damage per round from all four of them, meaning the Bugbear will go down in 2 rounds of full attacks. The bugbear has a 43% chance of dropping a fighter in one hit (43% chance of doing 12 or more damage), and a 35% chance to hit; that works out to about an 18% chance to drop a fighter each round. That's not accounting for surprise; with surprise, they have a 95% chance of dropping a fighter with one hit; they still have their 35% chance to hit.
In a more realistic scenario, the bugbear is going to go for a squishier target. If they have surprise, they can throw a javelin at the Mage (AC 15 if they have mage armor up, so 50% hit chance) for 1d8+2+2d6 (45% chance to hit with 71% chance of death; 5% chance to crit with 99.9% chance of death; total ~37% chance of death).
In order to take it down in one round, the group is going to have to expend spell slots, of which the standard party has 4.
mestewart3, I like your idea. Adding Con score HP could also work too.
Psikerlord wrote:
Oh thank Mearls that CR 1 apparently isn't a "challenging" encounter for a party of level 1s. Kind of odd nomenclature for the CRs, then, but whatever; level 9 spells are learned at level 17, so I can deal with numbers being strange ...
Wait, that table is multiplied by the number of PCs? So 2 bugbears is a "challenging" encounter? That's a TPK. 4 Hobgoblins could be doable, they have considerably less hp, but their higher AC might make that very tough. But 1 bugbear or 2 hobgoblins is a "moderate" challenge and there's still a good 25% chance of them killing a character. That means over the course of 5 encounters (it says a party of 4 PCs at 1st level should be able to deal with 1200 xp worth of fights in one day, or 5 200 xp fights), odds are good that you'll see a player death in the first adventuring day.
Lets see how level 3 works.
mestewart3 wrote:
akaddk wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
1st and 2nd level (the apprentice deal) are meant to be deadly, 3rd level or higher is where you start for a more more heroic starting point. I started my 3rd Ed Planescape campaign at 3rd level, and 2nd Ed Dark Sun campaigns start at 3rd level as default, because, you know, harsh.
Brock_Landers wrote:
I'll be doing the extra hit die and extra HP for level one PCs.
No one's PC should die in one hit, ever. This isn't Super Mario Bros. circa 1984. This is D&D, and even using a pre gen with a total noob; a one hit KO (much less a one hit KILL) is going to turn a curious player into a rage-quitter who will never pick up a D20 again. I doubt that's what anyone wants for the game and its future.
It's far worse if you make a PC from scratch, and get all into his or her story.
The MM isn't even at the printers yet (as far as I know) so...Lets hope they dial stuff back a bit for the default. It should be easy to dial things up or down (it was in 4e), but a reasonable middle ground is a necessary starting point.
mestewart3 wrote:
seti wrote:
akaddk wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
akaddk wrote:
seti wrote:
akaddk wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
I don't mind things like bugbear and hobgoblin mechanics for advanced play, but if you want to take something like the Starter Set and gear it towards teaching new players the game, "oops, I killed you" isn't a great approach to hooking them in for the long haul. The idea is to rope them in with a fun game and exciting, social experience. Help them learn how to play and appreciate the game. Someone unfamiliar with all of the tropes and commonalities of RPGs aren't going to know any better. Killing them off removes them from participation. Some people might stick it out and hope it gets better, but there are many more who'll just walk away.
Which means, all told, and especially where the Starter Set is concerned: there should be a disclaimer to the DM about expectations here. A bugbear attacking from ambush is likely to slay a PC, even the beefy ones.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brimleydower wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
I think the biggest problem is, indeed, that everyone assumes players are inexperienced, and the DM is experienced. Not everyone learns the game playing D&D Encounters; I'm thinking about the group of kids that runs its first adventure. In my opinion, it would have been best to make 1st level hp higher (HD + Con score; 2 HD + Con mod; whatever) and then present the "surivival of the fittest" option as something you could do, just as you can simply roll 3d6 instead of 4d6 drop lowest when you create a character, if you want the "hardcore character creation".
If my first session of D&D had involved me struggling for one or two hours to make a character, and then losing it after 15 minutes of play because the caravan was ambushed by goblins and the DM's dice were on fire... I wouldn't be in love with D&D as I am. Now, I understand we asked for strong monsters, and I'm HAPPY about them. I don't want to change the monster stats, they're solid and terrifying. And I understand that a roleplaying game is about interaction both in the form of combat and diplomacy. But monsters are evil. And it makes sense for them to act in an evil way; it's not always possible to negotiate.
An experienced DM knows how to gauge difficulty; a beginner doesn't. Not because he or she is dumb, but because the goddamn cover of the basic set has heroes facing a dragon. And they're not fleeing or firing a ballista to gain some advantage; they're on foot, and will probably die (the dragon in the adventure is CR 8 or something like that, if I recall correctly). The very classic imagery of D&D implies epic combat and heroic deeds; expecting a beginner to think that it's a game about caution, cunning, and threats beyond the PCs' reach... is confusing. To me, at least.
Emanuele_Galletto wrote:
Those are all good points, Emanuele. I hope the devs are reading this thread. I remember when Prom introduced me to the Doom board game. I thought it was horrible, because my guy kept dying. He'd make it like halfway across a room and then die. I think we maybe opened a total of two doors, and I can't even remember how many times we died in the process. I know D&D isn't that extreme, but the point is ~ that experience was so unfun for me that I've never wanted to play that game again. I can easily see someone who's never played D&D before feeling the same way should their 1st level PC get one-shotted seemingly arbitrarily.
When I eventually get the Starter Set and have a chance to run it, I'll seriously consider including a red shirt or two that can get one-shotted by the bugbear instead of the PCs. If there's one thing I've learned about being a DM, it's that seeing how dangerous a monster can be can make them scarier than having them be a total surprise. It's the anticipation. Oh man, that mind flayer just ate that guy's brains! I hope he doesn't do it to me too!
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
GOOD! I can't even remember a day when a bugbear even caused a party to turn their heads, much less seem like an actual threat. I say huzzah to challenging monsters!
I don't have a problem with monsters being dangerous. In 3rd and 4th edition, I felt that the power to control the game had switched to the players due their characters being so powerful and having little difficulty in any encounters. This led to groups being far less cautious and actually getting impatient with the DM if things didn't go their way. I say this as someone who has run hundreds of games for hundreds of people over the last 25 years of my gaming life. 1st/2nd ed players were just far more cautious and that added an air of tension to the games that I felt was lost in 3rd/4th.
So I, for one, am glad that the power is back in the DM's hands. Encounters should be dangerous and the PC's should be careful and think twice about entering the bugbear cave unprepared.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Whats the problem?
just name you charect bob, bob 2 through 5 will be waiting for you in the next room of the dungeon if you need him (you probaly will).
This way is much better. Now you don't have to come up with fancy names, personality or back story for your charecters, and you will have more time to concentrate on the fantasy protracted land war in asia/rocket taag fun.
Darth_Caffeineus wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Brimleydower wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Emanuele_Galletto wrote:
So....can anyone list some of monsters in the Starter Set, not the stats, just the names, rat, etc.?
Brock_Landers wrote:
Emanuele_Galletto wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
pukunui wrote:
akaddk wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
I think the difference with resetting a D&D game vs a computer game is that with the latter, you're generally playing by yourself, whereas with the former, you're usually playing as part of a group. If one player loses a PC, chances are the rest of the group isn't going to want to say, "OK, let's pretend that last half hour didn't happen." I made a few big mistakes with a big boss encounter I'd modified for a SWSE module, and when I said I wanted to reset to the beginning of the encounter, my players weren't so keen, although they did end up going along with it.
mestewart3 wrote:
akaddk wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
pukunui wrote:
seti wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Bugbears actually look ok too me. They are not a monster that you use that often at first level. When you do they should be nasty and maybe you need to run away. I remember that you could encounter dragons in the earlier editions just from random encounters, now thats a bitch. Player: I run away, DM: he follows and breaths on you, Player: **** I just made this guy. Actually the only problem that I have with the hobgoblin is that martial advantage is just the same as surprise attack and I dont think it fits as the hobs ability. I feel a advantage ability when grouped would have been better or getting a free attack as a reaction to a ally hitting someone next to him. Bugbears on the other hand are nasty to fist level adventuers in any edition of the game and are one of the archtypes for a brutal rogue.
Zardnaar wrote:
Seems like house ruling is in order if you want your first level "heroes" to ever leave the bakery behind in this edition. Good thing I am proficient in house ruling.
Here is a foreign concept. Give out xp for exploration and roll playing. I used to do this in 2nd ed and Pathfinder had an AP where you could hit level 2 without a single fight as you got 200xp per hex explored.
Roleplaying encounter 50xp
Per hex explored 50xp
Throw in some mooks like gobbos and kioobolds and you will be level 3 in no time!!.
mestewart3 wrote:
Bugbears are supposed to be the biggest and baddest goblinoid. If they are scary at 1st level when will they be? The Bugbear might be able to down party members with one hit if they get lucky but it doesn't mean it chooses to kill that party member. I believe there is a choice when a character is brought below 0. Maybe the Bugbear wants his prey fresher.
Someone earlier said that D&D isn't like super mario bros, in that you shouldn't die in 1 hit. I think that one thing D&D has contributed to video games that hasn't always been great is HPs. Getting whalloped with a longword will generally kill people. Letting that possibility exist isn't too bad. In fact, it makes the CR make more sense, since this possibility still probably exists with the Ogre at higher levels and is just more assured to lower level PCs facing an Ogre.
From what I remember a 1e/2e Wizard was pretty fragile too. There was lots of death in the early 2e games I started playing with and it never bothered most of us since you could always just make another character. We used to kill eachother's character more than the monsters did I think. No that I am proud of it, but I killed one of my friend's characters pretty brutally when I just started playing at like 10 or 11 years old and he went home crying. He ended up playing the game longer than any of my childhood friends (until he had kids).
All the suggestion are fair and good, and I think everyone agrees there are plenty of ways to make things work (house ruling, careful encounter planning, xp for exploration...) if you are a good DM and feel confident with improvisation. The only thing I really can't get over with is that the starter set doesn't seem to explain this kind of mindset to the newbie reader; as a beginner game, I think this is a mistake. That's it. 
mestewart3 wrote:
seti wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
On the one hand, these monsters do seem scary, especially compared to the monsters from the Playtest.
However, the monsters from the playtest were pretty much universally considered to be far too weak across all levels. So it is logical that the monsters for the final game would be a lot stronger. As we are all used to the monsters from the playtest, it comes as a big shock. I'm sure at least some of you have done that experiment in science class where you put your hand into a bowl of cold water for a minute and the transfer it to a bowl of room temperature water; do you remember the shock at feeling how "hot" the second bowl felt?
In addition, I assume the monsters were tested in the private playtest.
So don't worry. Everyone here who is saying, "This seems too hard" has nothing to worry about, because you already know how hard you want it to be. So instead of using 4 hobgoblins for a challenging level 1 encounter, use 2. Instead of 2 bugbears, use 1.
For new DMs, there will be a potential learning curve, just like there has always been. They and their players will figure out how hard they want the game to be.
Ultimately, we all just need to try it out for ourselves.
pukunui wrote:
You know what a CR2 bugbear is in PF vs a level 1 party? A joke. Not even much of a speed bump. Boring. Where is the terror of running up against this monstrous goblinoid terror? No where. I bet it's a terror here. Even a level 2 party will respect it. You highlighted "Any casualities". Well I would like to also highlight a word in that sentence that I saw......"SHOULD". As in, "NOT DEFINITE, BUT PROBABLY WILL".
I'm really happy with the dangerous monsters. Means you have to be both a smarter player... and a smarter DM. Now a character will fear the lurking darkness. Muahahaha..*cough*
Spoiler alert & live play
The Starter Set announces that the bugbear, Klarg, is monomaniacal and slightly insane, so I played him as much. He was warned of the PCs' approach, but didn't immediately hide to ambush. Instead, he announced to the PCs "You dare defy Klarg the Mighty!?!" and sicced his companions on them before attempting to hide and sneak around to waylay them while they were occupied.
I also thought before the encounter that with two potions of healing available amongst the treasure, it was reaasonable for him to have one on his person. I usually don't leave magical treasures just lying around when they are in a creature's lair.
But that decision kind of backfired when Galadriel the Elf wizard decided not to use any spells on the advancing Goblins, and instead cast Detect Magic. The magical glow outlining the potion in her sight gave away Klarg's position, and the next round before he'd snuck close enough to them, she Magic Missiled him to point out his location to the other PCs. They succeeded wildly in their Perception checks, and nearly killed Klarg, causing him to retreat and attempt a desperate escape.
Xander the Human archer finished him off. Most of the combat didn't even involve melee, except for one Goblin fighting with Bob the Halfling rogue briefly before being felled. Ulfgar the Dwarf cleric (an NPC, since no one chose to play the cleric and there are only three players) did not even have to heal the party that much. Xander used Second Wind after a lucky Goblin arrow critted him, and brought himself back up to full HP.
I don't think the encounter was overpowered for them at all. It might have been, if I had made the creatures ambush them outright I suppose. But it didn't seem in character for the Bugbear as presented to silently wait for them to walk around a stalagmite only to jump out and one-shot somebody, really. Perhaps a different Bugbear, but not Klarg.
CelticPaladin wrote:
Given what eleran and KuiperDragon said, yeah, I guess the encounter with the bugbear can be handled with a bit of caution. I feel relieved.
KuiperDragon wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Jenks wrote:
I ran the starter set this weekend with the kids' group. (Oldest player was 10).
They encountered the bugbear, 2 goblins, and a wolf. The cleric (archer) shot down one of the goblins, ducked the wolf, and got smacked to zero by the bugbear in the first round. The fighter (maul), wrapped up the fight almost single-handed. The cleric succeeded on 3 death saves handily.
They all returned to town & leveled up. Total time spent level 1 = 2 hrs.
The kids were thrilled.
Zardnaar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
You know, this thread has gotten me more buzzed about playing 5e than anything else has. I'm so dying to kill some PC's now 
eleran wrote:
kalil wrote:
It is obvious the playerbase for D&D is deeply divided over this subject. Both for their groups and for new groups the divide is there. Personally I'm in the hard camp and I think Bawylie's example is typical. I will say though that if all the luck goes against you then there could be deaths. To me that is part of the thrill of the game. If you go in with the deck stacked heavily against the bad guys it's boring for a lot of people.
I might though in the DM advice area explain to new DMs that it is very easy to make a mistake and kill off a group. As part of the DM's learning process, he may want to start a little easier and learn the game better. See Zard's example. I do not think though having this be the default is the right message to send. I also believe that a lot of DMs use class levels to represent NPCs in the world and we need something not overpowered at 1st level. So I think they made the right choice.
KuiperDragon wrote:
kalil wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
The point is not how deadly D&D should be, or is. The point is the designers FAILED at making such a simple thing as a balanced CR system at low levels. If they screwed up the math this bad so early on, the math for the whole rest of the game is not very promising.
That is the issue, the DM shouldn't have to play the monsters dumb, or DM fiat a detect magic spell revealing a hidden enemey because he has a potion of healing, this is all very bad.
No monster of CR 1 or less should be able to do 12 points of damage in a single not critical hit. PC mage, with 10 con = 6 h.p, 12 damage kills him outright so that is the baseline.
Wow, that sounds like a really awesome encounter! I think you played that Bugbear very nicely. Wish I could have been the 4th player at your table!
[/quote]
Thanks I'm guessing it might be a long trip for you to Texas, but feel free. Just let me know when you're coming in advance so I can stock up the Shiner Bock. Assuming you're over 21 that is ;)
kalil wrote:
akaddk wrote:
KuiperDragon wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
There are some really good ideas and examples in this thread.
I think a lot of the disagreement (all personal game feel issues) will be sorted out through hp and death options either given in the DMG or house ruled.
I can can see a great opportunity for enriching the campaign story by altering the outright death rules and replacing them with an injury and recovery module. This type of mod would recreate scenes like when Frodo wakes up in the bed after near death and the fellowship is at his bedside.
Hopefully, the downtime system will become more robust with time.
I really don't like it when a monster adds more damage than the weapon and its strength combined. Where exactly is the extra +2d6 damage comming from? What is the need for it? What happens if the monster picks up a knife? Does he continue to do the extra +2d6? Why is the game forcing me to roll more dice?
This is just more of the same kind of die masturbation that turned me away from 4e. It's nice to have BA, but without bounded damage it seems a bit skitzo.
Paraxis wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
kev777 wrote:
Question: By the time the PC's arrive in the Bugbear's cave is it not relatively easy for them to already be lvl 2 or even 3?
I have actually played through the first several encounters of this module and by the time we killed a goblin leader and saved an NPC (about three encounters into the adventure) we were right on the cusp of leveling from goblin murder XP and a milestone so the DM gave us some extra roleplay xp for our careful planning and some things that happened during note passes (I forswear any knowledge of my fellows missing coinpurses) before we ended the session. I never got to meet Missers Bugbear and Wolfe, but even with my crappy roll for HP boost, I could have survived at least one hit from the bugbear without instantly dying (well if it was average damage anyways).
Magi_theKid wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
I think HP at low levels is too low, but HP increases too quickly. By mid to high levels, HP has ballooned out of control. At low levels you have rocket tag where a single hit can drop you, but at high levels combats have devolved into slugfests were it takes dozens of hits to drop you.
I would have preferred level 1 HP to be Con score + rolled HD (not maxed and no Con modifier added to HP). Then at each new level you simply roll your HD and add that to your HP total (again without adding your Con mod). You can always opt to take the average instead of rolling of course.
At level 1 you will have HP ranges of 16-22 instead of 7-13. At level 20 you will have HP ranges of 90-150 instead of 140 - 240.
This means level 1 PCs will be able to take another hit and are no longer able to die from a single (un)lucky roll, but level 20 PCs still have the same sense of danger they had at low levels.
Polaris wrote:
kev777 wrote:
Anecdotally, its quite possible that throwing inumerable characters at the carrion crawler at the begining of the sample dungeon in the red box is probably one of the things that hooked me on this game.
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Slyck314 wrote:
I like the idea of a powerful foe you can fight at level 1. If I expect my players to easily handle a fight I'd rather not waste time rolling dice. In my games I also like to introduce future villians that the players are not expected to be able to defeat early on. It's the whole Darth Vader walking menacingly towards the party as they escape from the hanger bay moment I like to add into my story. That makes it much sweeter when the heroes meet him again later on and still have a bit of fear from the last time they met.
For a level one bugbear encounter, I would play up the danger to the characters to try and let them know that they are facing a dangerous opponent. It gets the players away from the roll/win/move on mindset for combat encounters.
We also need to remember that this is not a computer game. If I wanted to play an RPG that is bound by absolute rules and data I'd buy a computer game. If we don't want a random shot to kill a player, then we just reduce them to zero hps and see if the rest of the team can win before he bleeds out. Since this is a shared heroic story then we can wait for a heroic death to remove a character if we want to. I usually save player deaths for when the player does something exceptionally stupid. I'd prefer the players running away, or being captured as hostages or as a future meal than to just leave a pile of bodies any time rolls go against them.
Question: Can anyone please post some of the Bugbear's stats? The following stats would suffice for me: HP, AC, CR, XP, Attack Bonus, Damage, Traits
Much appreciated and Thanks!
I think it's awesome, I love that the monsters are scary and that a level one party could really rue the day a bugbear gets the drop on them. I think as long as the party is not surprised they should be ok. A fighter with a great sword, a rogue sneak attack, a cleric guiding bolt, and a. Wizard's magic missile adds up to something like 8d6+3d4+9 damage or, about 45.5 damage. The bugbear will drop in one round, maybe two, before it gets a big hit in. It dishes out a lot of damage but the party has a lot of healing(like fighters second wind).
It makes the bugbear a doable encounter but the math makes the risk real, as it should. The worst case scenario is the bugbear suprise and drops the fighter, wins initiative and drops the cleric, saves vs wizard spell, drops wizard, rogue attempts to flee.... Best case scenario, party gets suprise round and drop it in one go before it even gets a turn. Likely scenario, party wins but spends level one spells and healing, and possibly needs a short rest.
Can't wait to run the starter st adventure!
Ramzour wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Worth noting that the opportunities for the PCs to surprise the Bugbear are *far* more numerous in the Starter Set adventure than vice versa.
He does look a bit scary, but I think that's part in parcel with the return to the feel of earlier editions.
Haven't played our session yet, but I know I'm going to make a note to remind all my 4e players that the padded sumo days are behind them.
Guys I think we are edging into unpleasantness on this thread. Let's try to keep this upbeat, aight?
I can understand how the bugbear might be fairly dangerous in the right circumstances, but as shown above, it can also be very straightforward and easy.
Theorycrafting has some great use in detecting potentially bad scenarios within the rules, but it really needs to be backed up with evidence from real games where the chips are down (and preferably accompanied by some blanco queso dip). Science and probabilities are great when we are dealing with quantum tunneling microscopes and even players in a video game where the rules are the world. They are significantly less useful in games with just people playing around a table where their collective descriptions and understanding are the world, because the hard numbers (the dice) only abritrate so much of the experience.
You know, it's kind of funny really. TTRPGs are the only system I can think of (game, social contstruct or otherwise) that can only be rated and understood realistically through anecdotal evidence. Averages to-hits, armor classes and saving throws pale in importance to what weird made up junk the players are going to try next. Fascinating.
zgrose wrote:
kalil wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
kalil wrote:
Magi_theKid wrote:
Karnos wrote:
kalil wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Paraxis wrote:
kalil wrote:
Here's the way the Bugbear is used in the adventure:
unless the PCs take a difficult side path the bugbear is in a position where he's got forewarning, three allies, and is waiting to ambush the first person who enters the room.
If he hits he drops whoever it was. If he crits they die.
As far as "legality" Wizards has never really had a problem with people summing up a creatures' stats so here's the Bugbear's important stats:
27 HP AC 16
30 move
Dex 2 Con 1 Wis 0
Surprise Attack: If the bugbear hits a surprised foe during the surprise round he does an extra 2d6 damage on the hit
Brutal: Bugbears get an extra damage die on melee attacks (included)
Morningstar: +4 to hit, 2d8+2
Javelin: thrown +4 to hit, 1d6+2 (2d6+2 in melee)
ChrisCarlson wrote:
LFK wrote:
Polaris wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Polaris wrote:
LFK wrote:
Polaris wrote:
kalil wrote:
kalil wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Note: 2d8+2 damage has a 23% chance of killing a 7 HP wizard outright on a hit. So even without the 2d6 extra surprise round dice, the 13 or less Con wizard can still be easily killed in a single hit. This isn't just dropped to 0 here, this is brought down to full negative max HP in a single attack. This also doesn't take critical hits into account.
Polaris wrote:
WoTC used public, alpha and internal playtesting.
game philosophy for 5e default is definitely more old school. Adventure creation rules and Mearls' discussion about encounter building does encourage more organic and story driven development over strictly deterministic "at level" encounters.
Bounded accuracy works within its paradigm.
The game itself (in any version) cannot appeal to both people who want low levels to be dangerous and people who want low levels to be protected. The DM has to make this call.
Here's some irony, the very people who are dissatisfied with the lethalness of default are the ones that will need to wait/buy the DMG to make official use of options. Or they can house rule.
I like what what basic has to offer and I'm also looking forward to DMG. Go figure.
Karnos wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Paraxis wrote:
kalil wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Rhenny wrote:
Karnos wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Magi_theKid wrote:
kalil wrote:
I think the complaint is largely a symptom of using a single monster.
For one monsters to actually threaten a group of 4+ players, it needs to have some pretty scary damage potential, otherwise it won't be any threat at all. A bugbear without damage potential is just a big pile of hp with a lot of experience points attached to it.
If you, as a DM, prefer to avoid the potential of a single hit taking down a character, then you should use multiple weaker monsters instead of one big strong one.
Brock_Landers wrote:
To add to my earlier comment, it may be that WoTC wants to ensure through limited randomization that new DMs may design slightly harder and slight easier encounters by having a wider variety of monsters at each CR level.
It seems most likely that new DMs will try to balance encounters using CR and xp. If each encounter produces too predictable results, players will rarely be surprised. Predictability can become boring.
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Magi_theKid wrote:
"So basicaly a newbie group could do everything right and one lucky roll and a new player goes home swearing that DND 'sucks' and he'll never play it again. This happened more than a lot of you want to admit in the early 1980s."
It's funny. I remember newbies being allowed to roll up new characters in the 80s. When exactly was the "You only get to play one chaaracter, ever" law enacted?
kalil wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
DemoMonkey wrote:
Hurin88 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Rhenny wrote:
LFK wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
GhostStepper wrote:
LFK wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Has anyone seen the encounter guidelines? I have and they lead to fun!
Over the course of the day, a level 1 party should face 300 XP of monsters per PC! A moderate fight is 50 XP per PC, a challenging fight is 100 XP per PC, and a hard fight is 150 XP per PC.
So a challenging fight at first level is 4 hobgoblins vs 4 PCs. The PCs are expected to do this fight (or something similarly difficult) three times by the end of the day. Do you think even 50% of the typical adventuring parties out there could survive 3 different 4 on 4 fights vs hobgoblins by the end of the day?
kalil wrote:
Having seen the Bugbear stats (at least the truncated version posted here), I've gotta say, I'm perfectly happy with an encounter that encourages having a Perception/Stealth Expertised Rogue scout ahead to avoid being surprised.
Mike Mearls Calming words.... if you see a bugbear at level 1, RUN! (from Facebook convo)
eleran wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
eleran wrote:
eleran wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Polaris wrote:
kalil wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Hurin88 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
kalil wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Honestly, if they changed the XP budget around a little to be spent using the guidelines in today's article (multiply XP value by number of characters in party) then I think things would work out a little better.
Level 1
Easy: 10 XP (no resources expended, chance of PC death* very low)
Moderate: 25 XP (possible light resource use, chance of PC death low)
Challenging: 50 XP (light to moderate use of resources, almost even chance of PC death)
Hard: 100 XP (heavy use of resources, good chance of PC death)
*meaning dropping to 0 HP, and/or being killed
That gives CR 0 (commoner) threats as easy for a level 1 character, CR 1/8 as moderate (cultist, twig blight), CR 1/4 as challenging (Goblin, Wolf), and CR 1/2 as hard (Hobgoblin, Orc). This still isn't perfect, but I think it more closely resembles the actual difficulty of the monsters as presented. With a budget like that, you know that a single PC facing a CR 1 creature is pretty much suicide, as they are worth twice the XP value of a hard encounter. That way, two level 1 PCs facing a bugbear is a viable encounter, but one of those PCs is almost certainly going down, and the PCs may not even win. Sounds like a hard encounter to me.
Of course, this would probably mean adjusting the XP budgets of all levels, but that probably wouldn't be too difficult.
kev777 wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
kalil wrote:
kalil wrote:
kalil wrote:
caecafortuna wrote:
pukunui wrote:
I too belong to the school that thinks that Player: "I open the door" DM: "you die" is not a good introduction to the game. I will note that this is a feature, not a bug. 4e solved this problem [among others], but a deliberate effort has been made to go back to the "good old days" of low levels dying like flies.
And as others have pointed out, we can not expect the average DM to be able to spot the deathtraps in advance until he has killed a few parties.
kalil wrote:
kev777 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
kev777 wrote:
kev777 wrote:
kalil wrote:
kalil wrote:
LFK wrote:
House rule:
In the 2 hours of play before you reach level 2, monsters will K.O. in lieu of killing.
Rule 2:
In the (8?) sessions it takes to get to 5th level, monsters will K.O. in lieu of killing.
Should work, yeah? If you're worried about PC death, don't kill PCs
Ramzour wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
bawylie wrote:
kalil wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Another piece of advice for new DMs: don't surprise the pcs unless you are prepared to deal with PC death.
Surprise is very tricky with 5e. I like how it encourages party to play cleverly and stealthfully, but I'm very careful when I use it against the PCs. Heck, that bugbear waiting to ambush the party, might just step on a twig as he begins to swing his morningstar.
New and old DMs need advice not always rules that sterilize the game.
Rhenny wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Polaris wrote:
zgrose wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Heck, we had a 4e fight a few months ago I think. We ended up fighting a devil namned Meta-Baal(think Baal if he was a cyborg terminator) who, while possibly beatable, was smacking us around really well, and we really only "won" the fight because we pushed him off a nearby cliff and ran away(there was no way the cliff drop killed him). We're still ready for the guy to come in and attack us again any day now.
bawylie wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Gazra wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
Gazra wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
But I don't mind killing PC's, even new player PC's. I just want them to die for somethimg they did, not just for a single unlucky roll. When somebody dies I want them to be able to see what they did wrong amd be able to correct it. I go back to Dark Souls for an example. You can and probably will die at least once in the first half an hour in that game if you don't know what you are doing. However when you do die it is easy to understand why it happened, you can self correct (this is the only way to beat the game without a guide). Thst would be different if the first boss just 1 hit KOed you.
I like difficulty. I just see a difference between fair difficulty and B.S. unlucky auto deaths.
Making Bugbears CR 2 would help IMO.
Arithezoo wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
kalil wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
iserith wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
There's a huge middle ground between "characters can't die, there's no challange or danger" and "DM won initiative, and even though you were at full hp, you die!" The latter isn't danger or excitement at all. It's not hard, either. Do you think people would play chess if it were possible to be check-mated in the very first move? That's not challenging. That's not even getting to play the game.
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
It seems to me as well that concern over the PCs walking into a no-win situation is really a case of bad DMing. A good DM, in my view, telegraphs these kinds of threats in advance so the players can make meaningful decisions in the face of those threats. Opening the door and getting waxed sounds like something other than the rules have broken down somewhere along the way. Now, the players might make decisions that increase their risk despite this telegraphing, but that's still a meaningful decision and one that can hardly be bitched about should things not go the player's way.
That said, it's helpful to examine why a player might be miffed at a character loss. He wasn't bought into the stakes of that scene for one reason or another perhaps. Maybe the death was deprotagonizing or he's lost esteem among his fellow players. Perhaps there is no plan in place for getting the player back into the game as quickly as possible so he's forced to sit there. When a game threatens a player's participation in said game by design, it's important to think about what that means for your group.
Polaris wrote:
Iserith, I'm happy to say I have agreed with you twice in a row now. However, I think you and I both need to admit that some people here don't want to include "common sense" into their games. They want the game to play itself and have the rules tell them when and how to tie their shoes.
FWIW, whever a player has died in my games, I almost always give them an NPC to play if one is nearby. If not, I offer to let them help me play the monsters. Oh boy, do they love that.
EnglishLanguage wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
iserith wrote:
and BTW, getting back to the actual adventure that contains the Bugbear. When the party encounters some gobbos outside the bugbears area one of the goblins takes his action to dash into the bugbear area to warn him because there is enough noise throughout the cavern that the bugbear cannot hear the combat outside his area. The party should be able to clearly see the goblin leave this area and head to some unknown area. Can't the party at that time, once combat with the goblins is over, go on alert?
I will bet $s to donuts that the mage in my group that will be playing will use a prestidigitation spell to attempt to lure whatever the goblin went to warn out into the open. If successful suprise is thwarted. And/or they will go into "run silent run deep" mode and move forward very cautiously, because they expect me to spring some kind of surprise on them.
I will make a wager right here and now that the Bugbear does not insta-kill a member of my players group. I will promise to play him to the hilt. If he insta-kills someone I will switch sides to the math monkeys and be a slave to the numbers in the face of all rational evidence to the contrary from here on out.
A full report will be given after the session.
kalil wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Fun Fact: "Metagame" and "Immersion" (or "immerse") are not in the Basic PDF as game concepts for D&D 5e. (Yet, anyway. Hopefully never.)
Mirtek wrote:
eleran wrote:
EnglishLanguage wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
akaddk wrote:
kalil wrote:
caecafortuna wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Polaris wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
iserith wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
kalil wrote:
Polaris wrote:
I don't play D&D with the assumption of plot armour, nor am I a hero from the get go. I want to earn my title as a hero and I want my character to truly be in danger. I don't see my character being level 20, I take it one level at a time. I let my characters actions form who he is and if all that comes to a hault because of a monster then so be it, I just assume that was his fate. I like monsters that actually hurt and/or kill you. D&D isn't a novel with some planned ending.
akaddk wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
We're really going to compare goblinoids to Smaug, a collosal-sized dragon? Really now? It makes sense for a collosal dragon to be piss-your-pants-and-run-for-your-lives kind of dangerous. A couple of bugbears and hobgoblins, no.
Polaris wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
I ran through nine hobgoblin fights.
Three where the PCs just kicked open and door and the hobloblins rushed them, three where the hobgoblins hid and attacked the PCs from the rear, and three where one hobgoblin rushed forward and the other remained back as an archer.
During those three fights I had three deaths. Two in one fight and one in another.
One of the deaths was during the ambush when a hobgoblin hit the wizard and rolled well for damage, while the other was when the cleric healed the fighter and let the rogue bleed out. The third was a lucky critical on the fighter.
However, my playtests were also pre-Basic and made a few rules errors. First, the fighter never used Second Wind, and I used the wrong critical rules. This would have negated the death of the rogue and possibly allowed the fighter to survive in the second fight. I also didn't let the wizard use any 1st level spells.
Fights were hard, but the high AC of the PCs allowed them to survive multiple atttacks and the damage spikes from special abilities were rare. I feel confident in saying that had I continue to run the fights, deaths would be fairly rare but not so rare that the PCs could get careless.
It's one thing to look at a monster's statblock and think "wow, that is a LOT of damage." It's another for that power to see use. The bugbear needs to surprise PCs, which is not always easy. And they need to be able to get into position to attack during the surprise round. And they need to hit, which is the biggie. They might kill a PC but bugbears are meant to be assassins and it would seem weak if they weren't actually scary.
Four PCs can unload a lot of attacks. Two hobgobgoblins with AC 2 points higher didn't always last long in my playtests. The bugbear might last a little longer, but it is essentially a "solo" facing the party alone.
Remember, as the DM you choose the scenerio for the encounter. If the monster does a LOT of damage in a surprise attack and your players don't like losing PCs then don't use the monster in a surprise attack. If your players like the challenge have surprise attacks. Or monsters hidden behind murder holes and armed with bows. Or at the top of walls with vats of boiling oil. As the DM, you determin the environment and some environments are harder than others.
ankiyavon wrote:
Except last time D&D ignored fan input with their own closed playtesting, we had the math errors in 4e that were pointed out during the brief open playtesting that plagued the system for about a year and a half.
And the time before that, we had 3.x edition, arguably the most poorly designed edition of D&D that was rife with bad convoluted rules and major class imbalance.
The_Jester wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Gazra wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
In fact the very fact that the deadliness of the HGs (and earlier on the problems with attribute linked saving throws) caught Mearls and his team completely by suprise (by their own admission no less) tells me that they don't do this kind of testing. It's not 'proof' but it's a solid indicator [and the other possibilities are less generous].
-Polaris
Ramzour wrote:
You want evidence? The playtest, the Basic Rules, and the Starter Set. These things would not exist in the state that they are if the devs hadn't seriously done some combat analysis.
If you question their design process, then tweet Mearls about it. Or any of the other devs on Twitter. Or email them. Or travel to a Con and ask them in person. Get the answer from the source. But don't just sit there and hurl baseless insults at them.
The_Jester wrote:
akaddk wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Polaris wrote:
EnglishLanguage wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Gazra wrote:
You haven't been following Mearls twitter then. When specifically asked about Hobgoblin deadliness, he told the person that if you were a first level character and you saw one, you should RUN. That clearly contravenes Mearls own encounter advice so I am being charitable towards Mearls by saying it caught him by suprise. As for the ghoul save, they did a post-mortem on the entire incident and it's clear that it caught them all by suprise not only how deadly those Con saves were but they were as deadly to 15th level characters as fifth and they said as much.
You may disagree but that doesn't make me a liar and it doesn't mean I am 'making stuff up'.
-Polaris
mestewart3 wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Hurin88 wrote:
Polaris wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
mestewart3 wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
kalil wrote:
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