After reading an article on birds, I learned that an average duck flies at a speed of 47 mph, a hawk around 100 mph, and most birds in the 20-30 mph range. Humans walk at 4-5 mph...
Why the hell are fly speeds so low? Even the simplest of birds should have a fly speed in the 180 feet range. Is there a logic to flying critters being so slow?
So if my player has a hippogriff mount, does the hippogriff move only at 10 mph? Is there a rule I missed on overland speed and flying mounts?
Probably balance reasons, mostly. Druid turns into a Bird and flies away from the combat when in danger at 100mph, dives in and out at massive speeds...Also, most of the speeds tend to be "under duress" and has more to do with "in-combat" speed than anything. I'd just give them an "overland" vs "in-combat" speed but then we start getting into what is and is not in combat and turns into sim-sickness.
Basic Rules, Page 63: "Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. This number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life-threatening situation."
Other rules determine overland speed and the like (keep reading page 63 and 64). "Speed" doesn't really come into play when you're not using the combat system to adjudicate the situation.
Also, a duck can fly at a speed of 47mph, but it doesn't mean that they can reach 47mph from a standing start in six seconds while following instructions and trying not to be shot.
Hawks - actually falcons - can achieve these speeds in a dive... but not in level flight. Look out the window - do you see birds flying around at 50 to 100 miles an hour?
Kazadvorn wrote:
Kazadvorn wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Speed is a game construct that is used when PCs and monsters are in life-threatening situation. It comes into play only in those moments. Any other time, the DM says how it is resolved. Extrapolating speed to see if it simulates real-life animal speeds misses the point entirely. The rules are not an exact simulation and aren't applied in all situations, only when DM says so.
FFSAA wrote:
iserith wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Can you take the Dash action when Flying? And if you're a Rogue also use the Bonus action for Dash, That would give you 180 ft/6 seconds. Not bad for something that weighs over 100 lbs.
FFSAA wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
There it is. The rules facilitate play as their primary function. That they approximate or attempt to stand in for real-world analogous situations is secondary.
Kazadvorn wrote:
The ideal rule, however, is the one that is both playable AND simulates reality in a way that players can grasp intuitively. So they should always aim for that.
So the question can be reframed as, do the fly speeds in the game provide as much realism as possible without sacrificing playability?
I'm not sure they do.
iserith wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
BW0222 wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
If no speeds were listed for anything in the game, how would you handle it?
(I know of other games that don't have this detail. I'm curious what you would do without any listings.)
Cheers
I'm with Iserith in face palming at the simulation aspect.
Lets give a Falcon or Hawk it's "correct" fly speed based on its MPH from actual nature. Then of course you need to add some rules.
When this creature attacks it loses any remaining speed for this round and gains the "Prone" condition immediately after resolving the attack.
For one turn after attacking the creature may only use it's Walking Speed and attacks against it are at Advantage.
That will give you some simulation on how a raptor would look in simulation.
Try playing with realistic fly speeds on a grid with 1"=5' squares.
You'll see why.
(5280 feet per mile, 600 six second rounds per hour => 1MPH = 8.8 feet in six seconds)
So That duck flying at 47MPH? That's 248160 / 600 = 413' per round, so 83 squares... I would presume it's dashing in such a case, for your sanity.
Moirdryd2 wrote:
Simulating that the Hawk is attacking with Talons which are by nature designed to Puncture and Hold what it hits. Since (unless is an osprey or eagle grabbing a fish or rabbit) the bird comes to a halt at the moment of impact they often 'topple' a little while crushing the life from its prey with talons. Now if it goes into anything much bigger there is normally several seconds of unstable attachment with whatever they've gone into (I know this from experience when a buzzard attached itself to my left hand nearly severing the vital tendons). I looked at Grapple but Probe is a far more "accurate" simulation of the state the bird would find itself in. Also it's not walking upto flight speed but it does hand to pull itself free of its target which takes approximately 1.8 to 2.2 seconds and in the case of both Hawk and Falcon on a takeoff from Ground Level it takes them a good 1-2 feet of lateral flight to gain a foot of vertical lift and it takes another 2-3 seconds to travel the first 10 feet of that distance for a height of 5-8 feet, at which point it dips and lifts again, now gaining speed.
Twenty years of Falconry with a variety of birds teaches you something about how fast and agile they are before and after an impact.
20 years of Falconry, eh.
Good old internet qualifications. 
Moirdryd2 wrote:
Incidentally, the lack of rules for flying came up during my group's session last night. We were fighting a dragon, and the DM wasn't sure if the dragon could just fly straight up at full speed or what (the PC wizard had put a wall of fire in front of it, and the DM wanted the dragon to fly up above it). Flying creatures don't have maneuverability like they did in 3e. They just have a fly speed, and as far as I can tell, they can be knocked out of the sky if they don't have hover. Hopefully either the MM or the DMG will have more rules for maneuvering in the air during combat.
iserith wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
iserith wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
I think it is a function of simplified rules, flight speed is a factor of many things, including wind speed, and what manuever the bird is doing. Diving vs flying into the wind, vs maneuvering in a fight. A simulation that covered accurate flight speed would be too complex and unweildly, with each bird having many multiple flight speeds depending on the situation and maneuverability. Ie an eagle iwith 12 flight speads, all variables on wind speed and direction vs having a more generic "in direct combat" flight speed is used, think of how fast a hawk could move if it was inside your house.
true, It may not be realistic, but it is a working model in most situations. If the DM feels a need for a specific situation that may effect the nor al combat flight speed, that is what a DM is for. The hawk can dive on at 200 and the. Resume it's normal flight as it manuevers around that combatants and fights.
iserith wrote:
MrCustomer wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
it makes a playable game. if you want a simulation change the speeds and give all players 1hp. This will simulate real life more accurately. I prefer a game that is fun to play and not stress over the mean flying velocity of an unlaiden swallow.
I don't where you people have been, but D&D has NEVER claimed to be accurate when compared to real world simulations. They have always claimed to be more abstract. You want better accuracy, go try GURPS. Nice game. But man, there is a rule for EVERYTHING. Exremely detailed. Very realistic. Not very streamlined though. The opposite of what they are trying to do here. I think what a lot of these RPG companies have been doing lately is a step in the right direction and I'm glad to see WOTC getting on the band wagon. Good job. Streamlined. Quick, fast paced combat. Quick C-Gen. With still enough options to make it enjoyable. And i'm sure more options will get piled on with more books. As for overland travel, that, I believe, has usually been covered in the DMG, which hasn't been released for this edition yet.
In answer to the question I was posed, youtube and David Attenborough are your friend here. There's a who's variety of what raptors can do what and its far better to watch them rather than me inflect upon their capabilities further. However, on the subject of missing, it comes down a lot to how dedicated the bird is on its strike as to the after effect. Sometimes they'll come on, realise they've misjudged it or their prey has spotted them and is already evading, so they may make a half hearted grab as they slash by but will slow, tilt, lift and turn to circle and rise (hawks this is) for another dive. If they're hot on the target though and then the prey evades a falcon can make two or three sharp, tight turns (literally zig zags of a couple of feet while still keeping solid speed) to correct into their prey, however this becomes more uncontrolled and the landing is messy hit or miss and the bird is notmally left for a few moments short of breath and even dazed. The worst landing can come from a straight miss if the prey gets out of the way last minute as the bird can hit the ground in a fashion not dissimilar to a face-plant, if they're lucky they can turn on the breaks a bit and instead land in what can only be described as an embarrassed hobbling run, if it's really lucky it'll realise it's going to miss and pull out within a couple of feet of the target.
A lot depends on the bird too. Everything from size to species and the individual bird itself (we once had a Harrishawk that thought it was part falcon, zipped between trees in a dive like they weren't even there, corrected upto six times while nape of the earth on a rabbits running tail, think I saw her miss maybe six rabbits in as many years).
Seriously though check out a bit of YouTube and some Atteborough documentaries too see how raptors do it. Then you can work in what Houserules you want into your game to better simulate their speed etc. From that you can infere to Hippogryphs, Gryphons (look at Eagles but also Lions and Horses for reference points), Manticora (Lions and, ironically, Sharks feel right for describing this beast, plus is tail and spines of course) and Dragons etc
If we're talking hippogryphs, gryphons, manticores and dragons, then raptors aren't a good thing to base off. You want large things
Swans, albatross, turkeys and vultures are the place to go, or Quetzalcoatlus if you know your azhdarchidae. However Quetzalcoatlus is noticably, y'know, the size of a giraffe and all. Also estimated at 58.7 - 89.4 kph cruising speed which you crazy metric users can go convert to your own bizzare system of feet and whatever.
....does every thread lately have to devolve into a "playstyle" argument, due to that gang?
It is getting so tiring, just wading through the same crap on every thread, whether it is about hobgoblin foot-size, they will drop by and tell you that you are not incentivising, you're uncreative, you're unimaginative, and any other insults they can chuck, it has become a bit revolting, not to mention boring as hell.
Veleria wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
Illithidbix wrote:
Veleria wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
I ignore the low flight speeds when involving homing pigeons in a game. Those little guys can straight-line at 40-50 MPH during daylight hours. I used to crunch the numbers and figure out how long it took news would travel, allowing for their reputations to literally precede the group.
Gnarl wrote:
thewok wrote:
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
I think AD&D used to give dragons a combat speed and an overland speed that was 5-10 times faster than the combat speed.
If it helps look at it like jet fighters. They can fly at 2000kmh an hour and people may wonder how they fight at such speed. The answer is they don't as combat speed is sub sonic and at 2000kmh you are going to deplete your fuel very fast. Just do not use the new F-35 as an example that plane seems to be a turkey.
Something ike this cropped up in 2E for us as the PCs were trying to hit a quickling sprite. As 23, 27 while invisable and a movement speed of something like 96 squares a round in modern terms. With initiative being modified by weapon speed the PCs never went i time due to the sprites initiative modifier of 0. They eventually got the initiative roll right and roleed a 20 or so to hit the little fiend and KOed the poor litte fae.
FFSAA wrote:
I'm not sure if this counts for anything but... When I was a kid I chased a goose around that was flying in bursts and um... 'Grappled' it a few times. Like any good 0 level commoner, I eventually lost the combat overall. Under a strict 'speed by MPH' interpretation, said goose should have shot out of my line of sight the second it wanted to (it won initiative and even got a surprise round on me, for what it matters. It use it's free action to 'shove' me prone but then moved away to not take advantage of the Advantage. Poor tactics overall really.).
Just goes to show that at least to some degree 'combat speed' isn't exactly the same as overland movement.