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| #1FuelDropNov 28, 2014 1:07:50 | Polymorph is a fun spell. It can turn your enemies into frogs (something any self respecting spellcaster should see the value of), grant you and your allies access to various movement options, and in a pinch can turn a wizard into a melee combatant or buff an ally.
It comes into play at 7th level, and the most powerful beast I've found in the MM is CR 8 and thus becomes available 1 level later. Of course, the beastie in question is the Motherf***ing T-Rex, and let's be honest who hasn't wanted to turn the group's fighter into a huge 25 strength monstrosity and just watch as the enemy get devoured?
However, the fact is that the low INT of most beasts really limits how useful this spell is, along with the sheer size of many of the more powerful options simply making them impractical for many situations.
So, what's your favorite form?
I'm going to go with the Giant Ape myself. Here's why: 1) INT 7 means that while dumb, King Kong mode won't leave the target likely to turn on their own party out of predatory instinct. 2) 157 hit points means that you can take a serious pounding in this form, a good thing with an AC of 12. 3) Two +9, 3d10+6, 10-foot reach attacks per round means you can bring the pain fairly well too, and a ranged option at +9, 7d6+6 makes the form tactically versatile. 4) 40 foot speed and 40 foot climb speed means that you're going to be mobile. 5) Strength 23 makes moving heavy obstacles for the group a breeze.
The catch is of course being huge, making it impractical in enclosed spaces.
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| #2FuelDropNov 28, 2014 1:09:06 | Oh, and my favorite wild shape form? Giant Honey Badger. Because a burrow speed by 2nd level is awesome. And Honey Badger! |
| #31eejitNov 28, 2014 1:58:34 | Low INT isn't that big a deal. In the MM elephants, killer whales and octopi are INT-3 while a raven is INT-2. Those are all incredibly intelligent animals in real life. |
| #4raleelNov 28, 2014 3:41:46 | As demonstrated in another thread, low wisdom is the real kicker here. Many of these forms have pretty low ones, and make things like draconic fear frightfully effective.
Also, giant octopus, because octopoids rock |
| #5FFSAANov 28, 2014 5:12:07 |
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| #6Chiisai_UsagiNov 28, 2014 11:56:52 | After one of our wizards got polymorph last night and I read it closely, I was very disappointed with it. Disappointed enough to change well over half the spell without ruining the difference between it and Shapechange. But the first things to go were 'beast only' (I said they could also use monstrosity or plant, at 1/2 the normal CR value) and the whole mental attribute thing. Taking away your ability to be of use to a party is absolutely ridiculous.
"I'll polymorph into a raven and deliver this message to OH LOOK SHINIES!" is beyond stupid. |
| (Reply to #6)FuelDrop |
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| #8Chiisai_UsagiNov 28, 2014 22:45:26 |
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| #9rampantNov 28, 2014 23:23:53 | This is why shapechange magic shuld never actually use the monster manual entries, every single time the game starts using monster entires as a player resource we get into trouble. |
| #10LuisCarlos17fNov 29, 2014 4:17:40 | With shapeshifter powers you can turn a bird who fly until the top of the tower where the princess rest... or you could change to a boar to use the smell looking for (expensive) truffles or fugitives with a reward if they are catched.
Maybe a female druid could change to a female beast to be not attacked by a male animal of same specie..
What if a PC suffers a disease, and change to a shape from an animal that is inmune? the carrion-eaters have got the best inmunitim system.
My concept about polymorph magic is there isn´t a real transformation to a creature with a different genetic code, but the original body becomes invisible and demicorporeal and the new shape is really like a sport mascot costume created by ectoplasm. When the spell ends the original body turns corporeal agains and the "mascot costume" disappears (because is it only ectoplasm like ones from psionic astral constructs).
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| #11ORC_AnimusDec 02, 2014 10:23:50 | I’ve removed content from this thread because vulgarity, including masked vulgarity, is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite and on-topic. Things that you may not find offensive may be offensive to others. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| #12RavingDorkDec 22, 2014 8:47:01 | Why do people think polymorphing means giving up control of your character? |
| #13FFSAADec 22, 2014 9:21:10 |
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| #14kalilDec 22, 2014 10:26:48 |
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| #15BRJNDec 22, 2014 11:15:06 | If your ally is going to get interrogated / beat up in the next room, try Polymorphing him into... - a skunk. The guards will never live it down among their fellows, but they might take it out on your ally the next time they see him. - a porcupine. Let's see the guards lay a hand on that. - a gibbering mouther. Should cause the guards to run out of the room screaming. - a swarm of insects. Give your ally every chance possible to escape. (Gnats = guaranteed escape) - an ooze. Your ally might be able to do structural damage to the building. - one guard's mom. Especially good if she was a nag and a scold, and your ally thinks fast on his feet. - BBEG. He can then command the guards to release him and some specific prisoners. - an eagle/hawk. Make sure there is an open window in the room first. - a Velociraptor (Jurrasic Park style). At least he can put up a good fight before going down, and take a few guards with him. - a chameleon. If done when the guards are not looking, set up a Hide check with +lots to the roll.
Of course I invite any Druids to look these over for inspiration too. |
| #16melloredDec 22, 2014 11:37:12 |
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| #17RavingDorkDec 22, 2014 11:49:57 |
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| #18FFSAADec 22, 2014 12:13:50 |
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| #19melloredDec 22, 2014 12:37:26 |
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| #20FFSAADec 22, 2014 13:19:10 |
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| #21edwin_suDec 22, 2014 13:22:10 |
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| #22ChrisCarlsonDec 22, 2014 13:28:14 |
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| #23melloredDec 22, 2014 13:50:03 |
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| #24OrethalionDec 22, 2014 13:56:53 |
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| #25RavingDorkDec 22, 2014 14:02:31 | You keep your personality. You remember who you are. Nowhere does it state that you suddenly don't know those things or can't use basic tactics.
Any GM who tried to force that crap on me wouldn't be my GM for very long. |
| #26OrethalionDec 22, 2014 14:15:21 |
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| #27melloredDec 22, 2014 14:59:46 |
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| #28OrethalionDec 22, 2014 15:08:37 |
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| #29melloredDec 22, 2014 16:15:13 |
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| #30OrethalionDec 22, 2014 16:27:48 |
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| #31melloredDec 22, 2014 17:36:37 |
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| #32ShasarakDec 22, 2014 19:41:51 |
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| #33FFSAADec 22, 2014 20:19:47 |
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| #34FuelDropDec 22, 2014 20:29:54 | It would make sense that a PC could use handle animal to direct another PC who's been polymorphed, then. |
| #35ebergDec 22, 2014 20:36:40 | We just had an epic polymorph event last night. The party was fighting a coven of green hags and the leader polymorphed the ranger into a wee snake. His response, after looking over his new stats, was "I can work with this." He proceeded to slither over to her and start trying to bite her. Her AC was mighty, but he kept at it. Meanwhile, the Thunder Cleric was whittling her down and got her to one hp. We were all, "It would be awesome if the polymorphed ranger got the killing blow." He rolls, he hits, he does his 1 point of damage, and takes her down. This, of course, broke her concentration and he was restored to himself. It was awesome. Made our night. |
| #36RavingDorkDec 22, 2014 21:05:11 | The idea that the designers would create a buff spell that would actually take your character away from you is, frankly, hard to swallow. I don't buy it for a moment. |
| #37OrethalionDec 22, 2014 21:14:50 |
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| #38kalilDec 22, 2014 22:25:41 |
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| #39FFSAADec 22, 2014 23:10:04 |
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| #40FFSAADec 22, 2014 23:07:39 |
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| #41OrwellianHaggisDec 23, 2014 0:58:35 | Having had a read of the spell, I'd rule to my players that a polymorphed character retains memory (e.g. it remembers what a door is and how to use it, it remembers who its friends are, it remembers past events in its life, and so on) and personality (a practical joker t-rex may mock-charge its friends to scare him, or poop in his bedroll, and so on), but its capacity to learn new things is limited to, say, the same as a dog. Communication: I'd allow friendly characters to put across the gist of what they communicate to the polymorphed character because of how familiar they are with each other, but new people trying to communicate will come into difficulties.
In the end though, this is stuff that might take time to think about. If the spell comes up and we haven't had time to prepare for it (cast by an enemy caster, maybe) I'd encourage basically the above but wouldn't penalise if the player couldn't stick to a low INT/WIS/CHA. |
| #42EzechielDantanDec 23, 2014 3:18:04 | I am not going to bite ppl, that is just gross. Maybe trample them a bit but Id not feel inclined to bite them in half and taste their guts.. no thank you.
Otherwise, I do not think you ought to look too closely at lost intelligence. I would allow you to act as a well trained and relatively smart specimen, since you do not quite forget everything though definitely might make things hard to understand and makes you a sucker for some saves.
This is from the feeblemind spell which reduces intelligence and charisma to 1:
The creature can’t cast spells, activate magic items, understand language, or communicate in any intelligible way. The creature can, however, identify its friends, follow them, and even
So yes, you might have an issue with understanding tactics, but you are not completely hopeless. Allow for an intelligence, wisdom or charisma check in some cases as long as it is something the original character could do, flashes of insight are not impossible. |
| #43melloredDec 23, 2014 6:00:41 |
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| #44OrethalionDec 23, 2014 6:11:15 |
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| (Reply to #44)Bloodscythe |
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| #46melloredDec 23, 2014 7:13:25 |
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| #47OrethalionDec 23, 2014 7:27:31 |
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| #48BloodscytheDec 23, 2014 8:08:39 | Good point. So the spell explicitly draws a distinction between speaking (a spoken language) and speaking (making sound to convey thoughts or feelings). Seems strange to put such a restriction in there... so a human polymorphed into a goblin is incapable of speaking, even though speaking is mechanically the same for a goblin as it is for a human?
I'd imagine that there might be a learning period, where the target has to get used to the new form... but if that's the case, can a flightless being like a human polymorphed into an owl fly? Would they just know how to fly instantly? The game allows it since an owl has a fly movement speed.
Seems more appropriate if the wording restricted the target to only activities the new form can perform, but a form that can speak still can't speak per the spell. Harsh.
I guess it's a good way to shut someone up. haha. What if you polymorphed someone into themselves? They would look identical to what they looked like before but would now be unable to cast a spell or speak. They would still technically be polymorphed even though their new form is the same as the old form or does the spell require the new form to be a different creature than the original form?
Edit: Ah, the spell only allows the new form to be a beast doesn't it? I don't have the book with me but I seem to remember that limitation. Or am I thinking of druid's wild shape? |
| #49OrethalionDec 23, 2014 8:09:30 |
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| (Reply to #46)Bloodscythe |
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| (Reply to #49)Bloodscythe |
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| #52melloredDec 23, 2014 8:32:48 |
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| #53OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:08:08 |
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| #54ChrisCarlsonDec 23, 2014 9:14:41 | IMO: parsing, rules-lawyeriness should die in a fire. Or at least be restricted to the editions it was invented for. 5e not being one of them. |
| #55FFSAADec 23, 2014 9:16:56 |
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| (Reply to #54)Bloodscythe |
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| #57edwin_suDec 23, 2014 9:19:48 |
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| #58OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:20:25 |
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| #59OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:21:45 |
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| (Reply to #55)Bloodscythe |
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| #61OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:24:46 |
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| (Reply to #59)Bloodscythe |
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| #63OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:28:01 |
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| #64iserithDec 23, 2014 9:30:55 | DMs: Don't tell your players how they should have their characters behave when under the effects of a polymorph spell. Characters retain their personality and alignment when polymorphed. The rest of the changes amount to mechanical ones that will come into play when those rules are referenced to resolve an action the player chooses to have the character take. "You're a giant ape, therefore you must start flinging your own excrement" is not cool to tell a player whose character is not under a charm or dominated effect (or the like). Don't be that kind of DM.
If you want to encourage players to act like the monsters into which they have been polymorphed, agree on the basic beats for the beast (e.g. T-rex has a motivation to "be an awesome carnivore" and "engage in mindless destruction") and then reward the player with Inspiration when he or she plays to those beats in a way that is disadvantageous. A player, for example, might decide to spend his turn devouring an enemy instead of going after one that is trying to flee. Or smashes through a building of an allied NPC, changing its attitude from friendly to indifferent. Award inspiration for stuff like that. |
| (Reply to #61)Bloodscythe |
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| #66OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:30:23 |
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| #67OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:33:27 |
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| (Reply to #64)Bloodscythe |
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| #69OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:38:57 |
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| #70Beldak_SerpenthelmDec 23, 2014 9:41:57 | I haven't read the 5e rules yet, but I would imagine that if the designers intended for the effect of Polymorph to be "The target character is killed for X number of turns and replaced by Y creature until the character returns," then the rules wouldn't have been written in such a way as to give so many people the impression "The target character takes the form of Y creature for X number of turns." |
| #71OrethalionDec 23, 2014 9:51:25 |
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| #72rampantDec 23, 2014 10:22:40 | The problem is that polymorph is very poorly worded, you have the assertation that personality is maintained but that mental stats change. In other words they tell you nothing useful. I mean they probably intended it to mean that you behave as you wish to, but for the purpose of making checks you're using the animal's brainpower. However they just throw out this crap about personality which isn't really useful for determining anything. Why is wizards bad at shape-change magic again? They figured out how to make this work eventually in 3e with the variant druids and such, and then pathfinder came up with the improved versions of the basic spells. Why did they take such a dramatic backwards step? I mean I get that they didn't include a lot of 4e technology, but sometimes it seems like they missed a few of the things they learned in 3e. |
| #73melloredDec 23, 2014 10:40:41 |
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| #74iserithDec 23, 2014 10:50:20 |
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| #75OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:05:14 |
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| #76rampantDec 23, 2014 11:00:10 | I think it was intended as some sort of curse spell but half-way through they decided to make it into a buff spell as well and never really cleaned things up. |
| #77OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:03:44 |
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| #78melloredDec 23, 2014 11:05:19 |
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| #79OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:06:06 |
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| #80DragnDaveDec 23, 2014 11:06:31 | – The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or target’s level, if it doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.
Doesn't say anything about memory being wiped. It says the game statistics are changed. That's it. Which is just stating that your str/dex/con etc is all changed to the form you just took. If you want to house rule that you lose your memory then do that, but that's not RAW from what I'm reading. |
| #81melloredDec 23, 2014 11:11:24 |
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| #82OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:15:48 |
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| #83ChrisCarlsonDec 23, 2014 11:17:08 | We don't really use alignment. But the other day I got polymorphed. I felt the need to pick an alignment on the spot since it's one of the only two things I'm "allowed" to keep. Without having one, I was basically gimping myself by half! |
| (Reply to #81)Bloodscythe |
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| #85OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:18:16 |
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| #86OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:18:48 |
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| #87OrethalionDec 23, 2014 11:19:30 |
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| (Reply to #87)Bloodscythe |
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| #89edwin_suDec 23, 2014 11:28:01 |
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| #90melloredDec 23, 2014 11:30:25 |
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| (Reply to #90)Bloodscythe |
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| #92melloredDec 23, 2014 12:01:06 | I guess it comes down to your definition of "statistics".
But, IMO, friends and foes are not "statistics". |
| #93ChrisCarlsonDec 23, 2014 12:06:44 | Even if there's a section on the character sheet for "Allies"?... |
| #94OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:18:48 |
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| #95OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:19:50 |
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| #96OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:21:16 |
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| #97OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:22:20 |
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| #98FFSAADec 23, 2014 12:37:15 |
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| #99OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:44:31 |
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| #100ChrisCarlsonDec 23, 2014 12:50:43 | ...aaaand we're right back to what I said on page 1 of this thread... |
| #101OrethalionDec 23, 2014 12:55:44 |
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| (Reply to #85)Pompadour64 |
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| #103OrethalionDec 23, 2014 13:09:36 |
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| #104melloredDec 23, 2014 13:27:32 |
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| #105DragnDaveDec 23, 2014 13:35:19 | The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality.
What this means to me is your GAME STATS (Str, Dex, Con, Cha, Int, Wis) are replaced by the creature you've chosens' stats.....for check purposes/combat. I don't ascribe memory to either Int or Wis so I have no reason to believe memory would suddenly be wiped. |
| #106OrethalionDec 23, 2014 13:45:20 |
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| #107FuelDropDec 23, 2014 14:10:09 | I would suggest that the character keeps their memories, but are limited in their abilities to recall them and interperate them by their new mental abilities.
Friend and foe? animals can demonstratably determine that. A dog or cat can prove that. Distinguish between individuals of a different species? again, anyone with a pet of any description can vouch for animals being able to do this. Simple tactics? The term Wolf Pack comes from animals using tactics. Higher math? you're kinda screwed.
I'd say that the PC can still determine their friends and help them, but at the same time I'd suggest that any lingering resentment or the like, something normally easily suppressed, might bubble to the surface as a polymorph target is quite literally not in their right mind. |
| #108OrethalionDec 23, 2014 14:29:20 |
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| #109rampantDec 23, 2014 14:36:38 | Sounds about right. |
| (Reply to #40)RavingDork |
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| #111OrethalionDec 23, 2014 15:03:59 |
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| #112iserithDec 23, 2014 15:11:19 | I'd like to propose the thread title be changed from "Fun With Polymorph" to "How to Discourage Players From Choosing to Use Polymorph." |
| #113OrethalionDec 23, 2014 15:16:37 |
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| #114ShasarakDec 23, 2014 17:22:02 | If my character got polymorphed into a T-Rex and then the DM told me that I had to attack the rest of my party then I would ask politely for him to show where exactly it said that I had to do that. |
| #115iserithDec 23, 2014 18:05:34 |
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| (Reply to #114)Bloodscythe |
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| #117OrethalionDec 23, 2014 21:25:51 |
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| #118OrethalionDec 23, 2014 21:28:09 |
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| #119Byakugan01Dec 23, 2014 21:43:54 | As a general rule, I think that unless an effect specifically says you lose control of your character, then it doesn't stop you from controlling your character as normal...With a 3 int, you are probably going to lose your scales if you try to play chess against someone.
Even if your character lost his ability to distinguish friend from foe, you still get to use your turn to move over and 'attack the tasty smelling ogre' or whatever.
I havent seen polymorph in 5e yet, but it sounds like it was written pretty poorly. Wizards has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to balancing form altering effects.
See Alter self for a clear example of an overnerf. |
| #120OrethalionDec 23, 2014 21:49:09 |
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| #121Brock_LandersDec 23, 2014 22:42:12 | Memory is not mentioned in the spell description, you are simply a dumbed down, animalistic version of yourself. |
| #122ShasarakDec 23, 2014 23:29:07 |
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| (Reply to #118)Bloodscythe |
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| #124melloredDec 24, 2014 5:17:59 |
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| (Reply to #106)DragnDave |
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| (Reply to #5)1eejit |
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| #127OrethalionDec 24, 2014 7:25:00 |
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| #128OrethalionDec 24, 2014 7:27:16 |
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| #129OrethalionDec 24, 2014 7:30:56 |
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| (Reply to #129)DragnDave |
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| #131OrethalionDec 24, 2014 9:03:54 |
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| (Reply to #131)Bloodscythe |
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| #133OrethalionDec 24, 2014 10:09:47 |
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| #134Brock_LandersDec 24, 2014 18:56:07 |
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| #135OrethalionDec 24, 2014 19:30:47 |
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| #136Brock_LandersDec 24, 2014 19:52:34 |
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| #137OrethalionDec 24, 2014 20:12:08 |
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| (Reply to #137)Lucas_Blackstone |
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| #139Brock_LandersDec 24, 2014 20:57:07 |
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| (Reply to #137)1eejit |
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| #141OrethalionDec 25, 2014 7:32:30 |
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| #142OrethalionDec 25, 2014 7:33:39 |
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| (Reply to #142)1eejit |
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| #144OrethalionDec 25, 2014 9:18:56 |
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| #145Brock_LandersDec 25, 2014 9:47:21 |
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| #146OrethalionDec 25, 2014 11:39:27 |
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| #147Brock_LandersDec 25, 2014 20:03:45 |
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| #148OrethalionDec 25, 2014 21:01:23 |
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| #149Brock_LandersDec 25, 2014 21:23:43 |
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| #150OrethalionDec 25, 2014 22:02:01 |
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| #151Brock_LandersDec 25, 2014 22:22:15 |
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| (Reply to #144)1eejit |
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| #153OrethalionDec 26, 2014 8:34:42 |
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| #154melloredDec 26, 2014 9:26:06 | IMO you turn into a trained version of the beast. you know your friends, enemies, your own name, and some basic words and ideas (depending on Int). A t-rex can understand an ally pointing and saying 'bob, kill", but not much more beyond that. |
| #155iserithDec 26, 2014 15:16:02 | Not having a particular skill on your sheet doesn't mean you can't try to do something related to that skill. It just means that if you do have the skill, you'll probably do better at the action than someone who doesn't. If my fighter has Stealth trained and is turned into a tyrannosaurus rex, it doesn't mean I forgot whether and how to hide. It just means I don't get to add my proficiency bonus when I try. (This assumes the DM considers the outcome of the attempt uncertain enough to call for a check in the first place.)
The same goes for when I try to recall lore, discern whether someone is being truthful, or try to persuade someone in T-rex form. |