Gestalt Characters

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CulveDaddy Dec 27, 2014 22:41:52	What do you all think of using gestalt characters in a campaign with a small group or with an epic feel? I updated the orginal gestalt rules so they are compatible with fifth edition. I was thinking it'd be fun to do a campaign with an epic feel to it by allowing the players play gestalt characters. Gestalt Characters In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap, you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap. The gestalt character variant is particularly effective if you have three or fewer players in your group, or if your players enjoy multiclassing and want characters with truly prodigious powers. This variant works only if every PC in the campaign uses it, and it results in complicated characters who may overwhelm newer players with an abundance of options. Building A Gestalt Character To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. You can’t combine two versions of the same class. Build your character according to the following guidelines. Hit Dice Choose the larger Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d8 as her Hit Die and have 8 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example. Proficiency Bonus Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, not your level in a particular class. Proficiencies A gestalt character gains the proficiencies of both classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons, strength saving throws, constitution saving throws, and any two skills chosen from acrobatics, animal handling, athletics, history, insight, intimidation, perception or survival gained from the fighter class and intelligence saving throws, wisdom saving throws, and any two skills chosen from arcana, history, investigation, medicine or religion gained from the wizard class. Equipment You start with the game with the equipment of both classes, in addition to the equipment granted by your background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on one of your classes and spend them on items. Class Features A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets divine domain, expertise, sneak attack, spellcasting and thieves cant. Class-based and ability-based restrictions (such as a paladin's tenets of devotion or vengeance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is. A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he or she gains a new level, he or she chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his or her characteristics. A few caveats apply, however. Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
#2 rampant Dec 27, 2014 23:14:28	It's cool yeah, not what I'd pick for a third character creation pillar mind you, but cool.
#3 pukunui Dec 27, 2014 23:58:06	I've always wanted to try gestalt. Haven't found anyone else who's willing to give it a try, though. Reminds me of the simultaneous multiclassing that AD&D had.
(Reply to #2) CulveDaddy	It's cool yeah, not what I'd pick for a third character creation pillar mind you, but cool.
#5 rampant Dec 28, 2014 0:26:19	It's the option to install a third pillar. Also it's two pillars in the basic game because frankly neither backgorund or race is influential enough to constitute a pillar on it's own. It's more like one pillar and then half of two other pillars really. BAckground and race have largely passive impacts on the game with the exception of a few stand out ablities, and even then all of it is pretty much given out at first level and never grows or changes, I could understand race being like that, but backgrounds really needed some way to develop or expand on them during the course of the game.
#6 pukunui Dec 28, 2014 0:37:49	rampant wrote:
#7 rampant Dec 28, 2014 0:44:56	Because after a while what your character did in between your first session and your current one becomes part of that background.
#8 Brock_Landers Dec 28, 2014 1:09:55	rampant wrote:
#9 CulveDaddy Dec 28, 2014 1:32:28	Lets forget the pillar thing. lol
#10 rampant Dec 28, 2014 1:45:58	Not those pillars, besides which they didn't hold to those like at all. The pillars of character creation vary from game to game, they are the dominant and influential aspects of character creation and advancement. In 3e the three main pillars were class, ability scores, and feats, skills could be argued for but a lot of your skill options were class limited. In 4e it was ability scores, feats, class, themes were added on at a later date comprising a 4th, although race made a much stronger showing in 4e and one could argue it constituted a full pillar unlike 3e but it's iffy. In 5e it's basically class, race and background don't usually have the kind of decision making and advancement aspects to constittue a ful pillar. They're important foundations to be sure but they don't have a big direct impact on the character's advancement beyond level 1. Even feats and ability score boosts are class dependent now. Gestalt works great for player light games or just when you need a quick power up because you want the game to be a bit flashier. It's a good quick and dirty power up, or in some cases it can be an unlocked feature of the game such as being invested with additional power by a diety, or undergoing super secret training with a top-flight sensei. It can even be used to establish a core competency such as in a lot of stories where the characters are all suppsoed to be card gamers or wizards or ninjas or something. So for example if you wanted to do a game based on kung-fu movies you could have the party be gestalt but everyone has monk for one of their classes. That way they can do all the basic kung-fu action stuff without all being forced to give up levels in the classes they want to play.
#11 Brock_Landers Dec 28, 2014 1:51:27	rampant wrote:
#12 rampant Dec 28, 2014 2:14:01	The pillars of character creation are a term used to refer to the various independent aspects of character development in a given game. IN order to be a pillar of character creaton something has to be based on character building resources, be a part of the character progession, and be at least nominally indepedent of the other pillars. So in 4e the pillars were ability scores, class, and feat selection because while those things certainly interacted, your class didn't didn't dole out all your feats, your ability scores didn't directly determine which class you took, and your feats didn't dictate your choice of ability scores (although they made certain choices far more appealing there was no actual rule that said if your stats are ___________ you must then play or cannot play ________), and when themes came a along you could select nearly any theme for the character without worrying about the older pillars. Class is a pillar of character creation 5e, arguably the only true pillar remaining using the above definition, so going gestalt is essentially adding a new pillar. Hmmmmm gestalt characters are gonna have more feats and higher stats too aren't they? Remember to enforce that stat cap.
(Reply to #10) CulveDaddy	Not those pillars, besides which they didn't hold to those like at all. The pillars of character creation vary from game to game, they are the dominant and influential aspects of character creation and advancement. In 3e the three main pillars were class, ability scores, and feats, skills could be argued for but a lot of your skill options were class limited. In 4e it was ability scores, feats, class, themes were added on at a later date comprising a 4th, although race made a much stronger showing in 4e and one could argue it constituted a full pillar unlike 3e but it's iffy. In 5e it's basically class, race and background don't usually have the kind of decision making and advancement aspects to constittue a ful pillar. They're important foundations to be sure but they don't have a big direct impact on the character's advancement beyond level 1. Even feats and ability score boosts are class dependent now.
(Reply to #12) CulveDaddy	The pillars of character creation are a term used to refer to the various independent aspects of character development in a given game. IN order to be a pillar of character creaton something has to be based on character building resources, be a part of the character progession, and be at least nominally indepedent of the other pillars. So in 4e the pillars were ability scores, class, and feat selection because while those things certainly interacted, your class didn't didn't dole out all your feats, your ability scores didn't directly determine which class you took, and your feats didn't dictate your choice of ability scores (although they made certain choices far more appealing there was no actual rule that said if your stats are ___________ you must then play or cannot play ________), and when themes came a along you could select nearly any theme for the character without worrying about the older pillars. Class is a pillar of character creation 5e, arguably the only true pillar remaining using the above definition, so going gestalt is essentially adding a new pillar.
#15 Brock_Landers Dec 28, 2014 2:25:15	rampant wrote:
#16 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 28, 2014 3:27:33	I've always done gestalt feats and stats as 'whichever progression is better'. Since 5E has identical progression in...just about everything, then I'd only offer the feats once at each feat-up/stat-up level. The big bonus of gestalt, at least in my opinion, is two classes worth of abilities and spells/maneuvers/et al, using the best hit points, saves, etc with no opportunity cost to level advancement. I don't think you'd actually need to double up on absolutely everything to get the feeling of a substantial power increase - the versatility alone is more than sufficient in my experience. These kinds of characters are spectacular in one- and two-player games especially.
#17 EzechielDantan Dec 28, 2014 3:32:59	I'd probably do things a bit differently rather than double up more like mix and match: HD average both rounding up, then add other modifiers normally. Proficiencies: pick from both lists, add the number of proficiencies together but substract one. Armor: armor proficiency 0 no proficiency 1 (light), 2 (medium) and 3 (heavy), assign every class an armor grade and average between them rounding up. A fighter mage would have an armor grade of 3 : 2 = 1.5 > 2, so they are proficient with medium armor. Shields: proficient if either class is proficient spell casting: spells of each class are recorded separately, The system uses the spell point optional rule, the spell points stack but you can still only create 1 spell slot of lvl 6+ per spell lvl per day, which you do just a moment before casting or draining the slot to power smiting. Saves: Pick three saves from the saves your classes are proficient with, if they completely overlap pick one of your choice in addition, all other saves use 1/2 normal progression (round down).
#18 Brock_Landers Dec 28, 2014 4:12:19	Once again (with the 3rd Ed UA), pre-4th Ed is very easy to convert.
#19 Ath-kethin Dec 28, 2014 5:06:39	I really wish something like this had been included in the DMG, for those of us who miss 2e style multiclassing and dislike the 3e+ MC system. I would add to your rules a caveat stating that the ability increase/ feat selection progression goes by the most favorable of the two classes, and is not gained by both. Aside from that, I'm on board.
#20 rampant Dec 28, 2014 10:51:09	Usagi, If that's your approach then you're gonna need ot be careful with new classes. Since the gaining feats/ability mods is an aspect of class advancement that means you're removing an important aspect of the class. For now it's workable because there's only one class that doens't get the 4/8/12/16/19 deal, the fighter. However the second there's another class with a different feat progression than the standard then you've got an issue. Brock, I have specifically described how the term Pillar of Character creation differs form that three pillars nonsense that was going around what with the social/combat/exploration stuff last year. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp, adding a second class to every character is a big sweeping change with a dramatic and permanent impact on how the character grows and develops and adds a layer of complexity, it's changing a lot of fundamental aspects of how the character grows. It's definetly adding something, and pillar seems as valid a term for it as any other, if not bette rthan most. Column would work but it doesn't sound right. The reason gestalt doesn't get included as an alternative to multi-classing in 3e or 5e, is because it's almost a pure power boost, and a big dramatic game changing one at that. 2e multi-classing tried to be somewhat balanced with the non-multi-classed characters with stuff like halved HP, and seperate exp progression for all the classes. GEstalt on the other hand is meant to be a whole party power up if not a whole world power up, because a gestalt character is intrinsically more versatile and generally more powerful than a non-gestalt character. It's a big systematic change, and if they didn't have time/space for the costs/process of getting a wyvern mount trained then gestalt is unlikely for a core release as well.
#21 Brock_Landers Dec 28, 2014 11:14:40	rampant wrote:
#22 pukunui Dec 28, 2014 11:45:06	rampant wrote:
(Reply to #21) rampant	Brock_Landers wrote:
(Reply to #20) CulveDaddy	Usagi, If that's your approach then you're gonna need ot be careful with new classes. Since the gaining feats/ability mods is an aspect of class advancement that means you're removing an important aspect of the class. For now it's workable because there's only one class that doens't get the 4/8/12/16/19 deal, the fighter. However the second there's another class with a different feat progression than the standard then you've got an issue.
(Reply to #21) CulveDaddy	rampant wrote:
(Reply to #24) rampant	CulveDaddy wrote:
(Reply to #26) CulveDaddy	rampant wrote:
#28 rampant Dec 28, 2014 21:19:23	Why do they need to be balanced more than spell slots? they're part of the class, leave them.
(Reply to #28) CulveDaddy	rampant wrote:
#30 Horwath Dec 29, 2014 1:35:51	I would give all from all classes except double feats at lvl 4,8,12,16,19. I would give one bonus feat at 1st level to help to define the character from the start. P.S. what would be your gestalt combos? Vengeance paladin/assassin rogue; auto crit + sneak attack + divine smite, 2nd attack autocrit + divine smite, offhand autocrit + divine smite. barbarian/druid; what is worse that autohealing giant animal? A raging autohealing, fast moving, double attacking, take half damage from almost everything giant animal. life cleric/druid; just to piss off everyone with goodberry. And truck load of spells tied to same ability. non metal armor could be a drag, but there should be dragon hide somewhere... etc...
#31 Orethalion Dec 29, 2014 9:41:27	Horwath wrote:
#32 dafrca Dec 29, 2014 9:55:49	I want to make sure I understand one point: If you allow gestalt characters, shoudl all players make one to maintain the power levels amoung the party or can you mix and match?
#33 Orethalion Dec 29, 2014 10:16:49	dafrca wrote:
#34 rampant Dec 29, 2014 10:34:15	Fighter + war or tempust cleric, tons of attacks + divine strike = ouch.
#35 LuisCarlos17f Dec 29, 2014 11:40:06	We have to avoid possible abuses by munchkins with combos, for example hexblade and warmage... or incarnum soulborn and incarnate... + I would like a "gestalt" monster, for example ogre barbarian or a illithid wilder.
#36 dafrca Dec 29, 2014 12:32:14	Orethalion wrote:
#37 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 29, 2014 13:44:12	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #30) CulveDaddy	Horwath wrote:
#39 Undrhil Dec 29, 2014 22:15:24	Why not take a page from the 4e Hybrid book. Instead of giving complete access to both classes, give them the stuff that overlaps and then they can choose one class feature from each class. Whenever they level up, they can choose to take a class feature from earlier in the class or a class feature at the current level. At the ASI levels, they get the standard ASI from one class and a class feature. Of course, once they're past level 4, they can pick an ASI as their class feature to take, which means they aren't getting other class features. Also, I would encourage you to split out increases class features, such as Sneak Attack dice going up, so they have to choose between getting ASIs and more Sneak Attack, or Sorcery Points, etc. And I would encourage you to not allow gestralt characters to multiclass. Once they decide to make a gestralt character, they should be locked into that choice because of the power of the feature. Even with my suggested changes, this is a powerful system. For spellcasting, there's not much to change, but use the multiclassing caster level table. Just divide the caster class levels by 2 (minimum of level 1 if they have a caster as one of their entry classes.)
(Reply to #39) CulveDaddy	Why not take a page from the 4e Hybrid book. Instead of giving complete access to both classes, give them the stuff that overlaps and then they can choose one class feature from each class. Whenever they level up, they can choose to take a class feature from earlier in the class or a class feature at the current level. At the ASI levels, they get the standard ASI from one class and a class feature. Of course, once they're past level 4, they can pick an ASI as their class feature to take, which means they aren't getting other class features. Also, I would encourage you to split out increases class features, such as Sneak Attack dice going up, so they have to choose between getting ASIs and more Sneak Attack, or Sorcery Points, etc. And I would encourage you to not allow gestralt characters to multiclass. Once they decide to make a gestralt character, they should be locked into that choice because of the power of the feature. Even with my suggested changes, this is a powerful system. For spellcasting, there's not much to change, but use the multiclassing caster level table. Just divide the caster class levels by 2 (minimum of level 1 if they have a caster as one of their entry classes.)
#41 rampant Dec 29, 2014 22:55:56	Right, 4e hybrids are supposed to be balanced with normal PCs, tthey're sort of extreme multi-classing rather than a pure power boost.
(Reply to #41) CulveDaddy	rampant wrote:
#43 sleypy Dec 30, 2014 5:39:42	I've never played with this rules, but they sound clool. I've always been partial to fighter/rogues and monk/cleric. I don't see any reason why you would take away fighter features, by that I mean feats, because that would seriously nerf choosing a fighter.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

CulveDaddy

Dec 27, 2014 22:41:52

What do you all think of using gestalt characters in a campaign with a small group or with an epic feel? I updated the orginal gestalt rules so they are compatible with fifth edition. I was thinking it'd be fun to do a campaign with an epic feel to it by allowing the players play gestalt characters.

In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap, you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap.

The gestalt character variant is particularly effective if you have three or fewer players in your group, or if your players enjoy multiclassing and want characters with truly prodigious powers. This variant works only if every PC in the campaign uses it, and it results in complicated characters who may overwhelm newer players with an abundance of options.

Building A Gestalt Character

To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. You can’t combine two versions of the same class. Build your character according to the following guidelines.

Hit Dice

Choose the larger Hit Die. A monk/sorcerer would use d8 as her Hit Die and have 8 hit points (plus Constitution modifier) at 1st level, for example.

Proficiency Bonus

Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, not your level in a particular class.

Proficiencies

A gestalt character gains the proficiencies of both classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons, strength saving throws, constitution saving throws, and any two skills chosen from acrobatics, animal handling, athletics, history, insight, intimidation, perception or survival gained from the fighter class and intelligence saving throws, wisdom saving throws, and any two skills chosen from arcana, history, investigation, medicine or religion gained from the wizard class.

Equipment

You start with the game with the equipment of both classes, in addition to the equipment granted by your background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on one of your classes and spend them on items.

Class Features

A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets divine domain, expertise, sneak attack, spellcasting and thieves cant. Class-based and ability-based restrictions (such as a paladin's tenets of devotion or vengeance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he or she gains a new level, he or she chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his or her characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

rampant

Dec 27, 2014 23:14:28

It's cool yeah, not what I'd pick for a third character creation pillar mind you, but cool.

pukunui

Dec 27, 2014 23:58:06

I've always wanted to try gestalt. Haven't found anyone else who's willing to give it a try, though. Reminds me of the simultaneous multiclassing that AD&D had.

(Reply to #2)

CulveDaddy

It's cool yeah, not what I'd pick for a third character creation pillar mind you, but cool.

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 0:26:19

It's the option to install a third pillar.

Also it's two pillars in the basic game because frankly neither backgorund or race is influential enough to constitute a pillar on it's own. It's more like one pillar and then half of two other pillars really. BAckground and race have largely passive impacts on the game with the exception of a few stand out ablities, and even then all of it is pretty much given out at first level and never grows or changes, I could understand race being like that, but backgrounds really needed some way to develop or expand on them during the course of the game.

pukunui

Dec 28, 2014 0:37:49

rampant wrote:

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 0:44:56

Because after a while what your character did in between your first session and your current one becomes part of that background.

Brock_Landers

Dec 28, 2014 1:09:55

rampant wrote:

CulveDaddy

Dec 28, 2014 1:32:28

Lets forget the pillar thing. lol

#10

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 1:45:58

Not those pillars, besides which they didn't hold to those like at all.

The pillars of character creation vary from game to game, they are the dominant and influential aspects of character creation and advancement. In 3e the three main pillars were class, ability scores, and feats, skills could be argued for but a lot of your skill options were class limited. In 4e it was ability scores, feats, class, themes were added on at a later date comprising a 4th, although race made a much stronger showing in 4e and one could argue it constituted a full pillar unlike 3e but it's iffy. In 5e it's basically class, race and background don't usually have the kind of decision making and advancement aspects to constittue a ful pillar. They're important foundations to be sure but they don't have a big direct impact on the character's advancement beyond level 1. Even feats and ability score boosts are class dependent now.

Gestalt works great for player light games or just when you need a quick power up because you want the game to be a bit flashier. It's a good quick and dirty power up, or in some cases it can be an unlocked feature of the game such as being invested with additional power by a diety, or undergoing super secret training with a top-flight sensei. It can even be used to establish a core competency such as in a lot of stories where the characters are all suppsoed to be card gamers or wizards or ninjas or something. So for example if you wanted to do a game based on kung-fu movies you could have the party be gestalt but everyone has monk for one of their classes. That way they can do all the basic kung-fu action stuff without all being forced to give up levels in the classes they want to play.

#11

Brock_Landers

Dec 28, 2014 1:51:27

rampant wrote:

#12

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 2:14:01

The pillars of character creation are a term used to refer to the various independent aspects of character development in a given game. IN order to be a pillar of character creaton something has to be based on character building resources, be a part of the character progession, and be at least nominally indepedent of the other pillars. So in 4e the pillars were ability scores, class, and feat selection because while those things certainly interacted, your class didn't didn't dole out all your feats, your ability scores didn't directly determine which class you took, and your feats didn't dictate your choice of ability scores (although they made certain choices far more appealing there was no actual rule that said if your stats are ___________ you must then play or cannot play ________), and when themes came a along you could select nearly any theme for the character without worrying about the older pillars.

Class is a pillar of character creation 5e, arguably the only true pillar remaining using the above definition, so going gestalt is essentially adding a new pillar.

Hmmmmm gestalt characters are gonna have more feats and higher stats too aren't they? Remember to enforce that stat cap.

(Reply to #10)

CulveDaddy

Not those pillars, besides which they didn't hold to those like at all.

The pillars of character creation vary from game to game, they are the dominant and influential aspects of character creation and advancement. In 3e the three main pillars were class, ability scores, and feats, skills could be argued for but a lot of your skill options were class limited. In 4e it was ability scores, feats, class, themes were added on at a later date comprising a 4th, although race made a much stronger showing in 4e and one could argue it constituted a full pillar unlike 3e but it's iffy. In 5e it's basically class, race and background don't usually have the kind of decision making and advancement aspects to constittue a ful pillar. They're important foundations to be sure but they don't have a big direct impact on the character's advancement beyond level 1. Even feats and ability score boosts are class dependent now.

(Reply to #12)

CulveDaddy

The pillars of character creation are a term used to refer to the various independent aspects of character development in a given game. IN order to be a pillar of character creaton something has to be based on character building resources, be a part of the character progession, and be at least nominally indepedent of the other pillars. So in 4e the pillars were ability scores, class, and feat selection because while those things certainly interacted, your class didn't didn't dole out all your feats, your ability scores didn't directly determine which class you took, and your feats didn't dictate your choice of ability scores (although they made certain choices far more appealing there was no actual rule that said if your stats are ___________ you must then play or cannot play ________), and when themes came a along you could select nearly any theme for the character without worrying about the older pillars.

Class is a pillar of character creation 5e, arguably the only true pillar remaining using the above definition, so going gestalt is essentially adding a new pillar.

#15

Brock_Landers

Dec 28, 2014 2:25:15

rampant wrote:

#16

Chiisai_Usagi

Dec 28, 2014 3:27:33

I've always done gestalt feats and stats as 'whichever progression is better'. Since 5E has identical progression in...just about everything, then I'd only offer the feats once at each feat-up/stat-up level. The big bonus of gestalt, at least in my opinion, is two classes worth of abilities and spells/maneuvers/et al, using the best hit points, saves, etc with no opportunity cost to level advancement. I don't think you'd actually need to double up on absolutely everything to get the feeling of a substantial power increase - the versatility alone is more than sufficient in my experience.

These kinds of characters are spectacular in one- and two-player games especially.

#17

EzechielDantan

Dec 28, 2014 3:32:59

I'd probably do things a bit differently rather than double up more like mix and match:

HD average both rounding up, then add other modifiers normally.

Proficiencies: pick from both lists, add the number of proficiencies together but substract one.

Armor: armor proficiency 0 no proficiency 1 (light), 2 (medium) and 3 (heavy), assign every class an armor grade and average between them rounding up.

A fighter mage would have an armor grade of 3 : 2 = 1.5 > 2, so they are proficient with medium armor.

Shields: proficient if either class is proficient

spell casting: spells of each class are recorded separately, The system uses the spell point optional rule, the spell points stack but you can still only create 1 spell slot of lvl 6+ per spell lvl per day, which you do just a moment before casting or draining the slot to power smiting.

Saves: Pick three saves from the saves your classes are proficient with, if they completely overlap pick one of your choice in addition, all other saves use 1/2 normal progression (round down).

#18

Brock_Landers

Dec 28, 2014 4:12:19

Once again (with the 3rd Ed UA), pre-4th Ed is very easy to convert.

#19

Ath-kethin

Dec 28, 2014 5:06:39

I really wish something like this had been included in the DMG, for those of us who miss 2e style multiclassing and dislike the 3e+ MC system. I would add to your rules a caveat stating that the ability increase/ feat selection progression goes by the most favorable of the two classes, and is not gained by both. Aside from that, I'm on board.

#20

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 10:51:09

Usagi, If that's your approach then you're gonna need ot be careful with new classes. Since the gaining feats/ability mods is an aspect of class advancement that means you're removing an important aspect of the class. For now it's workable because there's only one class that doens't get the 4/8/12/16/19 deal, the fighter. However the second there's another class with a different feat progression than the standard then you've got an issue.

Brock, I have specifically described how the term Pillar of Character creation differs form that three pillars nonsense that was going around what with the social/combat/exploration stuff last year. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp, adding a second class to every character is a big sweeping change with a dramatic and permanent impact on how the character grows and develops and adds a layer of complexity, it's changing a lot of fundamental aspects of how the character grows. It's definetly adding something, and pillar seems as valid a term for it as any other, if not bette rthan most. Column would work but it doesn't sound right.

The reason gestalt doesn't get included as an alternative to multi-classing in 3e or 5e, is because it's almost a pure power boost, and a big dramatic game changing one at that. 2e multi-classing tried to be somewhat balanced with the non-multi-classed characters with stuff like halved HP, and seperate exp progression for all the classes. GEstalt on the other hand is meant to be a whole party power up if not a whole world power up, because a gestalt character is intrinsically more versatile and generally more powerful than a non-gestalt character. It's a big systematic change, and if they didn't have time/space for the costs/process of getting a wyvern mount trained then gestalt is unlikely for a core release as well.

#21

Brock_Landers

Dec 28, 2014 11:14:40

rampant wrote:

#22

pukunui

Dec 28, 2014 11:45:06

rampant wrote:

(Reply to #21)

rampant

Brock_Landers wrote:

(Reply to #20)

CulveDaddy

Usagi, If that's your approach then you're gonna need ot be careful with new classes. Since the gaining feats/ability mods is an aspect of class advancement that means you're removing an important aspect of the class. For now it's workable because there's only one class that doens't get the 4/8/12/16/19 deal, the fighter. However the second there's another class with a different feat progression than the standard then you've got an issue.

(Reply to #21)

CulveDaddy

rampant wrote:

(Reply to #24)

rampant

CulveDaddy wrote:

(Reply to #26)

CulveDaddy

rampant wrote:

#28

rampant

Dec 28, 2014 21:19:23

Why do they need to be balanced more than spell slots? they're part of the class, leave them.

(Reply to #28)

CulveDaddy

rampant wrote:

#30

Horwath

Dec 29, 2014 1:35:51

I would give all from all classes except double feats at lvl 4,8,12,16,19.

I would give one bonus feat at 1st level to help to define the character from the start.

P.S. what would be your gestalt combos?

Vengeance paladin/assassin rogue; auto crit + sneak attack + divine smite, 2nd attack autocrit + divine smite, offhand autocrit + divine smite.

barbarian/druid; what is worse that autohealing giant animal? A raging autohealing, fast moving, double attacking, take half damage from almost everything giant animal.

life cleric/druid; just to piss off everyone with goodberry. And truck load of spells tied to same ability. non metal armor could be a drag, but there should be dragon hide somewhere...

etc...

#31

Orethalion

Dec 29, 2014 9:41:27

Horwath wrote:

#32

dafrca

Dec 29, 2014 9:55:49

I want to make sure I understand one point: If you allow gestalt characters, shoudl all players make one to maintain the power levels amoung the party or can you mix and match?

#33

Orethalion

Dec 29, 2014 10:16:49

dafrca wrote:

#34

rampant

Dec 29, 2014 10:34:15

Fighter + war or tempust cleric, tons of attacks + divine strike = ouch.

#35

LuisCarlos17f

Dec 29, 2014 11:40:06

We have to avoid possible abuses by munchkins with combos, for example hexblade and warmage... or incarnum soulborn and incarnate...

+ I would like a "gestalt" monster, for example ogre barbarian or a illithid wilder.

#36

dafrca

Dec 29, 2014 12:32:14

Orethalion wrote:

#37

Chiisai_Usagi

Dec 29, 2014 13:44:12

Orethalion wrote:

(Reply to #30)

CulveDaddy

Horwath wrote:

#39

Undrhil

Dec 29, 2014 22:15:24

Why not take a page from the 4e Hybrid book. Instead of giving complete access to both classes, give them the stuff that overlaps and then they can choose one class feature from each class. Whenever they level up, they can choose to take a class feature from earlier in the class or a class feature at the current level. At the ASI levels, they get the standard ASI from one class and a class feature. Of course, once they're past level 4, they can pick an ASI as their class feature to take, which means they aren't getting other class features.

Also, I would encourage you to split out increases class features, such as Sneak Attack dice going up, so they have to choose between getting ASIs and more Sneak Attack, or Sorcery Points, etc. And I would encourage you to not allow gestralt characters to multiclass. Once they decide to make a gestralt character, they should be locked into that choice because of the power of the feature. Even with my suggested changes, this is a powerful system.

For spellcasting, there's not much to change, but use the multiclassing caster level table. Just divide the caster class levels by 2 (minimum of level 1 if they have a caster as one of their entry classes.)

(Reply to #39)

CulveDaddy

Why not take a page from the 4e Hybrid book. Instead of giving complete access to both classes, give them the stuff that overlaps and then they can choose one class feature from each class. Whenever they level up, they can choose to take a class feature from earlier in the class or a class feature at the current level. At the ASI levels, they get the standard ASI from one class and a class feature. Of course, once they're past level 4, they can pick an ASI as their class feature to take, which means they aren't getting other class features.

Also, I would encourage you to split out increases class features, such as Sneak Attack dice going up, so they have to choose between getting ASIs and more Sneak Attack, or Sorcery Points, etc. And I would encourage you to not allow gestralt characters to multiclass. Once they decide to make a gestralt character, they should be locked into that choice because of the power of the feature. Even with my suggested changes, this is a powerful system.

For spellcasting, there's not much to change, but use the multiclassing caster level table. Just divide the caster class levels by 2 (minimum of level 1 if they have a caster as one of their entry classes.)

#41

rampant

Dec 29, 2014 22:55:56

Right, 4e hybrids are supposed to be balanced with normal PCs, tthey're sort of extreme multi-classing rather than a pure power boost.

(Reply to #41)

CulveDaddy

rampant wrote:

#43

sleypy

Dec 30, 2014 5:39:42

I've never played with this rules, but they sound clool. I've always been partial to fighter/rogues and monk/cleric. I don't see any reason why you would take away fighter features, by that I mean feats, because that would seriously nerf choosing a fighter.