Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Orzel Sep 15, 2014 3:57:09	Yup. Yet another ranger thread.   I think I've cracked the code.   We've been doing it wrong. Granted it doesn't match how we've played with pet in any game. In most games, pet class either fight sides side by side with the pet, the pet tanks for the master, or the pet is a noncombat piece. We would not have recognized this.   in 5e, the ranger runs defender for the beast who goes striker.   Take the DEFENSE Fighting stye at level 2. Learn the Longstrider spell at level 2 or 3. Take the BEASTMASTER RANGER ARCHETYPE and put a pet with a speed of at least 35 ft. Take the SENTINEL feat at level 4.   Against weaker enemies, the ranger and his beast can target different targets. Against tough enemies, the now defenseive ranger runs up to the enemy while the beast does "hit and run" tactics. The SENTINEL feat allows the ranger to take the opportunity attacks the pet draws AND stop the enemy if he attempt to pursue the beast.   LONSTRIDER is not a concentration spell so the ranger can still cast it on itself, cast HUNTER'S MARK on itself or BARKSKIN on either of them. Later SHARE SPELLS lets HUNTER'S MARK affect the beast.     AOE, ranged attacks, and fast enemies still wreck your pet. Bring a healer.   Did I miss anything?
#2 2Chlorobutanal Sep 15, 2014 4:22:54	This is fairly close to my Beast Master Ranger, who uses a shield and Defense Style along with the Sentinel feat and a Wolf pet.   Sentinel doesn't let the ranger "take the OAs" in the sense of blocking them, but it does let the ranger make a reaction attack if an enemy OAs your pet.   Barkskin would probably be fairly pointless for the ranger and eventually the pet, as its natural AC will probably outscale 16.  Longstrider and jump are viable though, as is stoneskin or just using cure wounds to heal both of you at once.  Freedom of movement is also a pretty strong buff without concentration that could apply to both of you.   I don't think hunter's mark works with Share Spell, nor does ensnaring strike, because they do not "target" the ranger:  ensnaring strike specifically refers to the victim of your weapon attack as the "target," and hunter's mark has a range of 60' and the "target" is the creature receiving extra damage.  This is unfortunate, because it makes Share Spells a pretty weak feature.  If your table allows hunter's mark to work on a ranger and beast, it's a pretty nice gain.  If it only affects the ranger, though, I'd probably pass on it.  I really wanted ensnaring strike to copy onto a pet, but I couldn't convince myself of it.   My solution to get better Shared Spells is to multiclass as a War domain Cleric for 1 level, any time between levels 12 and 16.  This gives you divine favor and shield of faith as bonus prepared spells, and both of these spells are bonus action casting times (using the rarely occupied bonus action of a Beast Master) and can be Shared to give both you and your animal either +2 AC or +1d4 damage.
#3 Uchawi Sep 15, 2014 4:50:32	It would almost be better to offer the ranger healing abilities or buffs for a pet, similar to a valor bard or a battlemaster, but only for the pet. It would be training options and/or pet based maneuvers.
#4 Leugren Sep 15, 2014 5:36:06	Interesting idea.  Wouldn't it be better to have your pet partner up with an ally who is better suited to taking up the defender role, such as a fighter, paladin, or barbarian with the Sentinel feat, while you focus your own build on ranged combat?  I have not seen the Beastmaster Ranger in action, so please enlighten me if I am missing something obvious here.
#5 2Chlorobutanal Sep 15, 2014 5:42:04	It's definitely possible to do that, but that'd limit the other character's ability to defend, given limited reactions.   I see an archery Ranger as probably the easiest and most effective way to play a Beast Master, but I believe a melee Ranger with a solid melee pet can create a "one-PC" "striker team" that locks down high priority, isolated targets.   The fact that a Beast Master Ranger probably can't use two-weapon fighting and does about half of his or her damage irrespective of weapon (through the animal companion) suggests to me that a "defense" build for the Ranger is a viable strategy, given that there's not a lot of ways to optimize the animal companion's damage.
#6 Leugren Sep 15, 2014 5:55:05	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
(Reply to #5) Orzel	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#8 mellored Sep 15, 2014 6:24:30	You can let the beast tank just fine, you just can't expect it to take ALL the damage. Send it out, and attack with a bow, and have it automaticly dodge.   If the enemy attacks (with disavantage), that's more HP for you. If the enemy moves away, it get's an OA, that's more damage for you.     Just be smart about it, and don't expect it to take ALL the damage.
#9 FFSAA Sep 15, 2014 6:29:05	Cheesing flying snakes already gets past the OA problem.  Your pet is still going to fall over dead to the first AE which is the biggest problem.  You need a pet with either evasion or ranged attacks.
#10 mellored Sep 15, 2014 6:52:54	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #8) Orzel	mellored wrote:
#12 mellored Sep 15, 2014 7:19:57	Orzel wrote:
#13 Atheosis Sep 15, 2014 7:25:09	4 hit points per Ranger level...rofl...
(Reply to #12) Orzel	mellored wrote:
#15 bawylie Sep 15, 2014 8:21:59	To what extent does the 1/4 CR limitation exacerbate this problem?   What if we allowed CR up to 1, and/or large-size at higher levels?    For example, why is a Horse excluded? Or a bear? Would it wreck balance to permit these?
#16 RCanine Sep 15, 2014 8:54:12	bawylie wrote:
#17 mellored Sep 15, 2014 9:21:21	Orzel wrote:
#18 mellored Sep 15, 2014 9:28:23	And for cheeze....   Get 2 beastmaster rangers.     1: Send 1 beast into the lair of the BBEG. 2: 4 hours later send a second beast into the lair of the BBEG. 3: 4 hours later, the first ranger should have a replacement, send it into the lair of the BBEG. 4: 4 hours later, the second ranger should have a replacement, send it into the lair of the BBEG. 5: repeat untill your pets wins.  Or at least until the BBEG is out of daily resources.
(Reply to #17) Orzel	mellored wrote:
#20 Mechatarrasque Sep 15, 2014 9:55:45	I prefer the "bribe your DM with pizza, so he/she lets you put armor on your pet" strategy myself.
#21 FFSAA Sep 15, 2014 10:03:06	mellored wrote:
#22 Kravell Sep 15, 2014 11:19:56	Seems to me the ranger should get a version of the Find Steed spell once every short rest. The ranger can either get a mount or get a Medium beast of CR 1/4 (CR 1/2 at 7th level). The animal works per Find Steed as well as the mount rules (ie ranger can control it or ranger can let it work independently).
#23 RCanine Sep 15, 2014 15:07:44	Orzel wrote:
#24 bawylie Sep 15, 2014 15:13:58	What if we add the proficiency bonus to the HP recovered when the beast spends a hit die?
#25 iserith Sep 15, 2014 20:41:47	My 3rd-level beast master ranger, Red Creek Rufus, is a fisherman and his constant companion is an ornery boar by the name of Belvedere. Rufus throws a net at the outset of combat. He's got Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter Feat which puts him at +6 to hit and no disadvantage for long range (net's 5/15). So from up to 15 feet away, Rufus is restraining a Large or smaller creature when he hits and forcing the DM to make a choice: Spend that creature's action on a Strength check, attack the 1-gp net (with disadvantage) or attack the PCs (with disadvantage). Meanwhile, everyone's getting advantage to hit the monster. When it's Rufus' turn again, he sends in Belvedere with a charge with a +5 to attack (with advantage if the monster is still restrained) and doing 2d6+3 damage on a hit. If the target's a creature, it now has to make a DC 11 Strength check or be knocked prone.   If the monster isn't dead at that point, Belvedere's relentless trait should give him a decent buffer and keep him alive and if the monster was restrained or prone after his attack, I'd risk the OA to move Belvedere away and line him up for another charge on the next round.   Maybe that whole mess I just typed isn't the most optimal thing in the world, but it sure is fun.
(Reply to #18) CCS	mellored wrote:
#27 2Chlorobutanal Sep 15, 2014 22:27:25	Anyone who assumes that animal companions die at 0 hp are being unnecessarily harsh on them, I believe.   Familiars, conjured creatures, and steeds found with find steed explain explicitly what happens to them when they drop to 0 hp.   However, animal companions do not.   One could easily say that an animal companion is either a PC or an important NPC (probably more important than any other NPC in the game due to its "screen time.")   In either case, it follows the same rules for death and 0 hp as PCs.  Any healing will bring the beast back up from 0 hp, and it can stand and move around "for free" on the ranger's next turn.   4 hp/level is more than a wizard or sorcerer with 10 Con.  Anyone who summarily dismisses an animal companion as getting killed in one hit must assume the same thing about wizards or sorcerers without above-average constitutions.  I know that getting a +2 Con mod is pretty standard for spellcasters, but I don't think leaving Con at 10 suddenly invalidates the entire class.  Any AoE or attack that would drop an animal companion would most likely also drop a full-hp Wizard or Sorcerer, especially given that many animals have decently high (if nonproficient) Dexterity saves, at which point somebody (such as the Ranger, if the party's normal healer doesn't want to spend a group healing spell or healing word after that AoE) can apply healing to the animal and it continues fighting.   At the same time, as has been pointed out, animal companions are no slouch in the AC department - some high-level pets can rival a character in full plate with a shield in terms of AC.   All of this is in addition to the fact that the animal is a completely separate and nearly autonomous character in addition to the PC ranger, with his or her own HP total and abilities.  It's not like being a Beast Master forces you to become a Giant Snake, it gives you an extra Giant Snake in addition to your Ranger.
(Reply to #27) Orzel	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#29 2Chlorobutanal Sep 16, 2014 3:22:27	Getting dropped due to low HP isn't really a healing sink- if anything it actually saves you a bit of damage when the victim goes to 0.   Beasts may not have a lot of Hit Dice, but they do have slightly larger ones than most spellcasters.  They also have safety measures (AC) that generally exceed a spellcaster's.   AC, resistance, and saving throws are what mitigate damage, not HP, and the animal companion can have the AC of front-line fighter.   I would say that a 4 level window where a beast can't disengage without the ranger losing an action is fine- the ranger has to lose an action to personally disengage anyway.  If an enemy chooses to attack the wounded beast rather than a "real" PC, I see that as advantageous for the party.  After level 7, it's not really an issue, as the pet can "tank" by dodging or disengage as a bonus action if things get too hairy.  Also, many potential animal companions have special abilities that allow them to avoid OAs, such as Flyby.  At least one beast companion has 10' reach.   An animal companion "risking hits" in melee is really no worse off than any other party member doing the same - if the hit happens, the damage will be mended- regardless of whether the 8 damage went to a Boar or an Elf Rogue.   Even if the animal dies or can't be healed enough to be functional, you still are a default Ranger.  You lose a few archetypal features but otherwise continue to fight and cast spells as normal.  Essentially, if enemies focus enough on your pet to kill it, you lose a potential extra attack and reaction until you can find a new one (usually the next adventure or next day).  The silver lining is that enemies likely "wasted" several attacks that would have otherwise damaged you or your party.
(Reply to #29) Orzel	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#31 mellored Sep 16, 2014 5:47:11	Orzel wrote:
#32 FFSAA Sep 16, 2014 6:28:44	iserith wrote:
#33 Ramzour Sep 16, 2014 6:57:10	It seems like a far more simple solution would be to give the Beastmaster Ranger some sort of Bonus Action thing to command their animal companion. I actually wrote something like this up during the playtest. It's a rough draft and probably a little out of date, but I think it does what you want it to. Anyway, let me know what you think.     Animal Teamwork. At level 3, you can use a Bonus Action you can command your Beast Companion to help you with a task and gain a bonus on that action. Your beast knows the Attack command, plus any 2 other commands. You can teach it one new command at levels 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13. (this ability replaces the command mechanics under Ranger Companion.) Attack! You team up against the same target and attack. If your attack hits, you deal an extra +1d4 damage on your attack. Alternatively, if your beast has a special attack (i.e. knockdown, poison, pounce, etc.), you can choose to apply the special attack's effect instead of the extra damage. Hunt! Your beast companion's keen senses help you track a creature. You gain +1d4 bonus on your next Wisdom (Survival) check to track a creature. Sniff Traitors! Your beast companion's natural instincts warn you against potential treachery. You gain +1d4 bonus on your next Wisdom (Insight) check to judge the intentions of a creature. Scare! A fearsome and wild animal can be useful in negotiations. You add +1d4 bonus on your next Charisma (Intimidate) check against a creature your beast is threatening. Defend! Your beast companion guards and protects a creature you choose. If that creature suffers damage, reduce the damage received by 1d4. At your option, any remaining damage can be taken by the beast instead of the creature it is guarding. Distract! Your beast companion distracts a foe, giving you a bonus to attack. You gain +1d4 bonus on your next attack roll against the creature your beast is distracting. Retreat! Your beast companion takes the Disengage or Dodge Action.  Make Friends! Your beast companion helps you interact with other animals. You gain a +1d4 bonus on your next Wisdom (Animal Handling) check. Sneak! You and your beast companion sneak, and you watch the beast for clues on where to step. You gain a +1d4 bonus on your next Dexterity (Stealth) check.  Exceptional Training. At level 7, your Animal Teamwork abilities increase from 1d4 to 1d8. (this replaces the Exceptional Training RAW)   Bestial Fury: At level 11, when using the Attack command, your bonus damage is doubled. (i.e. 2d8 instead of 1d8) (this replaces the Bestial Fury RAW)  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =   Discussion of the proposed Animal Teamwork subclass feature. I like this because it always lets the Beast Master Ranger do something with their beast companion. By using the Bonus Action, the ranger has a choice between making a second attack themselves (like when TWF for instance), or commanding the beast to Attack!  Either way, the Ranger gets to deal some bonus damage.   The beast master ranger can effectively "tank" with the Defend! command. The beast soaks up incoming damage at the expense of lowering the ranger's output damage.   I also like how this system offers the Ranger a selection of non-combat uses for the beast companion. Sniff Traitors! and Scare! are two of my favorites.   Last, this system makes the most sense for how a Ranger and their Beast Companion should work together. They are strong because of their teamwork. Sure the Ranger might be a great archer, but sending their Hawk to harass their foe lets them get a better attack in. And all of the abilities are command word activated, which is how humans in real life interact with animals.
#34 Ramzour Sep 16, 2014 7:00:58	FFSAA wrote:
#35 iserith Sep 16, 2014 7:12:58	Ramzour wrote:
#36 Caliburn101. Sep 16, 2014 7:40:52	Don't forget the beast set's up the pre-requisite for sneak attack.   I already have a beastmaster ranger archer and crossbow rogue who work together on this in one of my games. The pet dodges around and the focussed target get's pin cushioned...
#37 Caliburn101. Sep 16, 2014 7:44:17	Oh and let's not forget that a Bloodhawk is a great way to harry a buffing caster and from the start of the fight allowing a ranged sneak attack on an otherwise diffcult to reach target even if it is aware of the rogue who's shooting.
#38 Ramzour Sep 16, 2014 7:45:16	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #31) Orzel	mellored wrote:
#40 h347h50 Sep 16, 2014 8:11:26	What if, every one played a beast master to level 20 before tweaking and trying to make it "work in combat."
#41 FFSAA Sep 16, 2014 9:24:47	Ramzour wrote:
#42 Trance-Zg Sep 16, 2014 9:58:37	h347h50 wrote:
#43 h347h50 Sep 16, 2014 10:27:15	Trance-Zg wrote:
#44 Trance-Zg Sep 16, 2014 10:41:16	h347h50 wrote:
(Reply to #41) Ramzour	FFSAA wrote:
#46 Ramzour Sep 16, 2014 13:57:18	h347h50 wrote:
#47 h347h50 Sep 16, 2014 14:00:34	Ramzour wrote:
#48 Ramzour Sep 16, 2014 14:37:31	h347h50 wrote:
#49 lawrencehoy Sep 16, 2014 22:54:39	Ramzour wrote:
#50 Ramzour Sep 17, 2014 2:36:41	lawrencehoy wrote:
#51 Brock_Landers Sep 17, 2014 2:52:34	I am simply perturbed at the Ranger not getting Great Weapon Fighting as a Fighting Style option.
#52 2Chlorobutanal Sep 17, 2014 3:23:38	I think this is pretty fitting:  Everyone (who can specialize in a combat style) is good with one-handers and defense.  Paladins get two-handers and shields.  Rangers get ranged weapons (go figure) and off-hand weapons.  Fighters naturally have a choice from everything.   You can always level-dip if you really want that extra 1-2 damage per attack.  Great Weapon Style is inherently much weaker for Rangers, a class that attacks frequently for less bonus dice, than Paladins who attack less frequently but add a significant amount of bonus dice to attacks.   As far as nets go:  they can not ever be off-hand thrown as a bonus action because they are ranged weapons, unless using the "dual nature" thrown weapon interpretation (which also allows melee sneak attacks with hand axes and +2 to hit from Archery style in melee with thrown weapons).  Two-weapon fighting requires a (light) melee weapon.
(Reply to #51) Uchawi	Brock_Landers wrote:
#54 Brock_Landers Sep 17, 2014 3:32:52	Uchawi wrote:
#55 Ramzour Sep 17, 2014 4:25:54	Uchawi wrote:
#56 Chaosmancer Sep 21, 2014 0:00:19	I know this thread is a couple of days old, but even before my brief break the arguement that beast companions die "in one hit" rang false. Now I have the MM book, so let's look at some numbers. Let's use a classic wolf companion so we have the AC numbers too.   First page I turned to gives me the Chain Devil, CR 8. Multiattack with it's chains for 11 (2d6+4) damage. Assume both hit that is 22 damage, beast will have 32 hp at level 8, it has 10 left, but chains will auto-grapple and deal 7 (2d6), leaving wolf at 3hp.. In bad shape but alive. Also, wolf would have AC of 16, chain devil gets +8, meaning they hit on an 8 or better... that's a hit rate of 60% I believe, but wolf can dodge now, so the atcks might be made at disadvantage. Ranger has same AC, but approx 68 hp, so a little over half. So if the chain devil does almost kill the wolf that means they did not almost bloody the ranger.   Oni, CR 7, also does multiattack for about 30 damage (15 each), so if both attacks hit it could kill a wolf at level 7, but wolf AC is still 16 and oni's only get +7 to hit, 55% chance and wolf could stil dodge action.   Oh, Storm Giant, CR 13, multiattack sword for 60 (30 each), defintely kills wolf with 52hp, wolf AC is 18, Storm Giant swords get +14, so 85% chance of hitting. Nasty bugger, of course, ranger's aren't doing much better, even wtih a little over 100 hp 60 is going to be brutally bad, and ranger AC is possibly lower than the wolf's at this point unless they've maxed out dex.   Let's jump down to Death Slaad for a second, CR 10, multiattack deals about 50 damage. Three attacks at 16-17 damage. If all hit wolf is clearly dead with only 40 hp. Wolf AC 17, Slaad gets +9 to hit so we're at 60% chance to hit with each attack   So, maybe equal level monsters are hitting hard enough to kill the wolf in the first turn, and it seems at about CR 10 creatures are accurate enough they are more likely to hit than not, but this ignores a few things.   1)The beast is not a big enough threat to focus fire on under most circumstances, and even if it is PC's will be glad that fire isn't on them because the AC is comparable throughout and these bad boys are as likely to be gunning for the rogue with the rapier or the battle cleric as they are anyone else.   2) Even if they companion dies, which with death saves and healing is less likely than it may seem, it can be replaced much easier than a fellow PC.   3) 5th edition is not balanced around mass groups of the same CR enemy at high levels.   This last point is important, Take that incredibly powerful Storm Giant. The PC's may face him as a solo boss, but more likely they will face him and his pet wyverns or griffons. And CR 2 griffons will have a much harder time with a level 13 wolf than the giant will. The goal of bounded accuracy is to keep low level creatures a threat at high levels, because it makes sense for a massively powerful creature to have less powerful enemies as minions. Take a vampire, CR 13 with legendary actions a lair and everything. It specifically mentions that a vampire will have CR 5 vamire spawn running around it's castle. Heck, they get a once a day ability to call 2d4 swarms of rats or bats, or 3d6 wolves to aid it in battle. You think an average wolf can stand up o a ranger's wolf companion?   Your evil necromancer is going to have zombies, skeletons, ghouls, wraiths, al of which will be lower CR than the big bad archmage, but still a threat to the party.   So yes, if you send the beast companion against the BBEG at high levels, and if it attacks them, and if it hits, and if your DM doesn't roll damage or rolls high damage, your companion can die. At which point you continue whacking them. As does the rest of the party the BBEG didn't target.   Quick note on AOE, yes, they are very nasty, but if the party is spread out they will only hit the companion as an after thought, if at all.