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| #1ZardnaarDec 28, 2014 18:57:47 |
Since 5E PHB landed I have been interested in seeing a Gish character in play although these types of PCs have not been popular with various player since 2000 or so when 3.0 landed. Gish in this case means some sort of arcane based caster class not a Paladin or cleric. Generally I would use the word gish when referring to a mellee based fighter/wizard type as opposed to an arcane archer concept although technically they are gish as well. I thought the concept would get easier in 5E due to being able to cast in armor and several classes like the valor bard and bladelock option existing. Appearances can be deceiving how as the Gish concept in 5E seems to have several problems.
1. MAD or multiple ability dependency. Generally you want a high strength or dexterity and a decent constitution score and maybe a decent caster stat as well. If you are wearing medium armor you probably want something like 13 strength, 14 dex, 14 con, and 14 caster based stat.
2. Heavy feat/stat bump investment. The warcaster feat is more or less a feat tax for the gish concept and then you probably want to buff dex or strength and con and/or caster stat.
3. Unable to cast a lot of spells with somatic gestures which leads to the warcaster feat being a feat tax. Even Eldritch Knight RAW can’t wield a weapon and cast a shield spell without stowing his weapon which means they will not be threatening. You can avoid this by having a free hand spar but then you are giving up damage or AC and gish already struggle there as they may lack a fighting style or bonus to damage via spells like hex, hunters quarry etc.
4. Concentration rolls. Only 2 classes in this game are proficient with constitution saves the fighter and the sorcerer. This feeds back into warcaster being a feat tax for the concept and most gish classes do not get many feats with the exception fo the Eldritch Knight who kid of lacks spell slots anyway.
Note that these are just IMHO as you can build some decent gishes but it requires a bit of system mastery to get right. I do not think any of the obvious options are that good such as Eldritch Knight, Bladelock or Valor Bard at least for melee combat. For a melee based gish a dex based PC can compound some of the problems of the concept as you will be suffering from low damage for the most part but you can avoid MAD Solutions to some of the above problems.
1. MAD can be a problem for gish types in medium armour. The obvious way to avoid this is to wear light armor or heavy armor. If you are a pure spellcaster gish like the Valor Bard or Bladelock a single dip into a cleric level gets you heavy armor. Even better is starting as a fighter which gets you heavy armor+ proficiency in constitution saves so if you want to go strength based
I recommend doing that. The fighter dip also gets you a weapon style as well. If you want to wear medium armor as a valor bard for example or as a Mountain Dwarf one can roll for ability scores or take a race such as Half Elf, default human or the Mountain Dwarf and make do with a 14 in your spell casting stat. 16, 14,14 is usually better as your best 3 stats than a 16,16, 12 13.
One can also roll their stats and hope for a better starting array. Point buy and the default array tend to punish MAD type PC while some decent rolled stats enable some classes and concepts to shine. With point buy for example the default human can have a 16,14,14,14, 11 and 10 for stats.
2. Gish type PCs can be feat intensive and/or ability score bumps. Generally 18/18 is better for stats than 20/16 for example unless you are only using your spell casting stat to cast buff spells and have no class abilities tied to having a higher score. The warcaster feat takes care of most of the issues gish PCs will run into and then you can probably take 1 more feat for something fun top do and then take some ability score boosts. Feat combos may be a bridge to far.
3. The warcaster feat takes care of number 3 for the most part and you may even have fun with AoO which combines with the sentinel feat.
4. See the warcaster feat which is a great idea especially if you are not proficient in constitution saves. Otherwise consider a 1 level dip in the fighter class at level 1 and multiclass into your spells aster class as you pick up heavy armour and proficiency in con saves along with a fighting style which can add bonus damge.
As our very own DaveDash pointed out with a previous PC of mine a valor bard I may have over stretched myself in temrs of what I could do with the ability sscores I had. I wanted to be a support type PC with shield bash but ended up with a 12 con in a party 12 con did not quite cut it. On the front line. The concept was decent enough but my execution was off to some extent. If I had to do that one over again I would start as a level 1 fighter.
An example from a new campaign started yesterday is a Fighter1/WarlockX AKA a bladelock. She rolled stats in front of the DM and got something like 17 17 14 14 12 11
And being a half elf she got to start with 16 cha, 18 strength and 18 constitution. Her starting stas are high enough where she doesn’t need to worry about stat bumps for the rest of her career. With the default array one could do something similar.
Half Elf 16 strength 16 charisma 14 con 12 wisdom 10 dexterity 8 intelligence
A medium armor half elf might have to settle for something like this due to MAD. 16 strength 14 charisma 14 dex 14 con 10 wisdom 8 intelligence
She took the fiend pact and bladelock options along with agonising blast and the false life invocation by level 3. She is proficient in con saves, wears heavy armor and unlike a conventional champion type fighter is decent at range due to hex and eldritch blast so she is out damaging a normal fighter due to hex and has better ranged options. At higher levels she can also lob around fireballs if needed and have hex up all day long along with armour of agathys and fire shield and eventually (level 13) she can add charisma to damage which will be around 2d6+8+1d6 along with any magic weapons and extra damage from great weapon fighting. To me the basic gish chasis is the fighter 1 dip for strength based gish.
So far the main problem in game and theory crafting is juggling the right amount of offensive options vs utility vs defensive. 5E seems to be a bit more about party synergy than individual power as to party composition and various combos and combo enablers are where you can break the game. |
| #2pukunuiDec 29, 2014 0:47:54 | Where does the term "gish" come from anyway? |
| #3bonethug0108Dec 29, 2014 0:50:34 | A Githyanki fighter/wizard. Not sure why it's gish instead of gith(maybe to differentiate between the race and the concept?). |
| (Reply to #2)Ashrym |
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| #5LuisCarlos17fDec 29, 2014 3:29:42 | My suggestion is to see the previous classes: the hexblade, the duskblade (3.5 Player's Handbook II), the psionic soulknife, the swordsage (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords), Magus (Pathfinder rpg) and Swordmage from Fogortten Realms Player Handbook 4th Ed.
How do you imagine a aasimar/deva paladin vs a drow hexblade? What type of techniques a gith uses? |
| #6LlenlleawgDec 29, 2014 3:40:42 | I do not think any of the obvious options are that good such as Eldritch Knight,...
I'm curious, why isn't the Eldritch Knight an option? Specifically, why do you think it's a bad option for melee combat?
I'll add that I don't share you problem, but then, I play a no-multiclass, no-feats [i.e. the baseline without added options]. In that case, "gish" is best and adequately represented by the EK, the Valor Bard, and/or the Blade Pact Warlock, depending on the relative emphasis on melee or spellcasting, as well as the kind of spells you want to cast. So, I guess I don't precisely see why/how there should be a problem when factoring in multiclassing and feats. |
| #7Stormborn20Dec 29, 2014 5:54:23 | Seems to me that a Monk (Way of the Four Elements) is a decent gish, and does not require War Caster.
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| #8pukunuiDec 29, 2014 10:17:47 | @bonethug0108 and Ashrym: I thought it had something to do with the githyanki! Thanks. |
| #9cowleymenDec 29, 2014 11:48:02 | I dont agree with this post at all. You want to be able to cast spells, and carry as many weapons or a weapon and shield as a person who isnt? Isnt the concept of the gish a sword in one hand, fireball in the other? doesnt that mean you need to have an open hand? There are so many classes that already do this.
I suppose some people just want that Warmage class though.
Though after warmage, people will want Swordmage, spellsinger, and every other prestige class that has came out.
The game isnt even 6 months old. IM sorry you cant do everything that 3.5 and 4 could build.
Im actually hoping that they release less splatbooks then both those editions, and instead take their time to make player options that balance well agaisnt everything in the PHB, so DMs dont have to be afraid of a player with a book that holds a class they have never heard of that totally wrecks anything the dm could come up with. Splatbooks shouldnt make the new options the next BFG class, but instead just explore parts of the world that the PHB doesnt, like psionics, classes or subclasses built for urban exploring, new styles of casting, |
| (Reply to #7)1eejit |
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| #11Stormborn20Dec 29, 2014 12:24:22 | What does arcane mean in this context? |
| #12Brock_LandersDec 29, 2014 12:55:36 | I just converted the 3rd Ed Duskblade today, great combo of melee and magic, I prefer not to use the word "Gish" unless referring to the Githyanki order (and they have Antipaladins!). |
| #13ankiyavonDec 29, 2014 13:14:22 |
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| #14ZardnaarDec 29, 2014 15:30:24 |
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| #15ankiyavonDec 29, 2014 16:14:26 |
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| #16ZardnaarDec 29, 2014 16:20:19 |
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| #17ankiyavonDec 29, 2014 22:23:35 |
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| #18UngeheuerLichDec 29, 2014 23:54:00 | Free hand:
use a versatile weapon. The shield spell is so good, it may be intentional that shield + shield spell is not so easy to pull off.
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| #19shpelleyDec 30, 2014 6:51:12 |
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| #20demon_idolDec 30, 2014 9:58:29 | It seem like you could cast spells if you wielded a greatsword. On you turn take a free action to let go of the sword with one hand (dropping things does not take an action, so neither should letting go of a sword with one hand). Cast the spell. Then use your 1 'interaction with objects around you' (pg. 190, Player's Handbook) to re-grip the sword.
Note that you could even do that with a sword and a shield, though it would be silly. You would use a free action to drop the sword, then use your action to cast the spell, and then use your 1 interaction with objects around you to pick up the dropped sword. If someone tried that when I was DMing though, I would have some opponents ready an action to pick up your sword when you dropped it, kick it away from you, mage hand it away from you, etc.. But still, technically it seems it can be done...
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| #21ZardnaarDec 30, 2014 11:03:12 |
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| (Reply to #21)randl |
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| #23ZardnaarDec 30, 2014 11:27:00 |
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| (Reply to #21)1eejit |
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| #25ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 9:54:24 |
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| #26Stormborn20Dec 31, 2014 9:58:24 |
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| #27ankiyavonDec 31, 2014 11:02:36 |
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| #28ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 11:16:24 |
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| #29ankiyavonDec 31, 2014 11:35:03 |
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| #30ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 11:49:31 |
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| #31ankiyavonDec 31, 2014 11:59:19 |
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| #32ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 12:09:18 |
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| #33Brock_LandersDec 31, 2014 12:25:43 |
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| #34ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 12:47:18 |
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| #35ChrisCarlsonDec 31, 2014 12:50:08 |
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| #36ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 13:42:02 |
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| #37ChrisCarlsonDec 31, 2014 13:44:28 |
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| #38ZardnaarDec 31, 2014 13:47:04 |
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| (Reply to #25)1eejit |
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| (Reply to #32)Ashrym |
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| #41ZardnaarJan 01, 2015 3:13:54 |
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| (Reply to #41)Ashrym |
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| #43ZardnaarJan 01, 2015 12:07:25 |
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| #44Brock_LandersJan 01, 2015 13:16:59 |
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| #45ZardnaarJan 01, 2015 13:24:25 |
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| (Reply to #45)Ashrym |
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| #47masterfat78Jan 02, 2015 13:54:56 |
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| (Reply to #47)Ashrym |
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| (Reply to #20)Llenlleawg |
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| #50Stormborn20Jan 03, 2015 10:18:10 | Using your component pouch is part of casting the spell, just like using your quiver is part of an attack with a bow. Neither one uses up your interaction unless you are doing some unusual, e.g. taking a copper wire out of your component pouch to pick a lock with or drawing an arrow to poke a hole in some cloth. |