Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 eventhorizon1 Dec 13, 2014 23:18:14	should the galdiator (darksun) be its own class ,or arch type ,or sub class.what are your thoughts on this?
#2 LuisCarlos17f Dec 13, 2014 23:47:42	My suggestion is the gladiator may a variant class. What is a variant class? A class with a different list of class features.   I would like a gladiator subclass with the "ki manevuers" from "Tome of Battle: Book of nine swords".    Maybe in a D&D worlds gladiators would use illusory magic to mock, to roleplay fake deaths. Maybe the coliseum would be magic with some healing power to save the best fighters.
#3 eventhorizon1 Dec 14, 2014 0:07:28	excelent ideas.ill start ASAP. it will be a variant class ill use the book of 9 swords and the test packet that had the gladiator. i want to stik to 5th edition as much as  posible.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 14, 2014 0:07:42	I think the fighter class can already sufficiently represent the Dark Sun gladiator
#5 eventhorizon1 Dec 14, 2014 0:11:51	excelent ideas.ill start ASAP. it will be a variant class ill use the book of 9 swords and the test packet that had the gladiator. i want to stik to 5th edition as much as  posible.
#6 eventhorizon1 Dec 14, 2014 0:14:12	Aron, how does the fight clas represent a dark sun galdiatior i want them to have class abilities more geared through the  crowds reaction, perform moves give a bonnus of some kind.
#7 rampant Dec 14, 2014 0:56:24	Well there's your first problem, crowd dependent abilities are horrid for most adventures I've seen and even in darksun would only be useful in the arenas. Now using showy moves to overawe or bedazzle an opponent would be very slick.   What you need to do before decidin if this is a variant, a sub-class, or a full on class, is figure out what you want it to do specifically. Saying use maneuvers, or ki points or the To9S is a bit too general. What kind of maneuvers, what is it using ki-points for, which of the nine paths does it use?
#8 Diffan Dec 14, 2014 1:28:14	Definitely a sub - class, bolted onto the curre fighter framework. Easier to design too
#9 Zardnaar Dec 14, 2014 2:05:18	The orignal gladiator was just a glorified fighter anyway but just better in exchange for a crappier xp table to go up.
#10 eventhorizon1 Dec 14, 2014 2:06:00	i think a sub class would be eassier,but i like rampants idea. would that be enough as a full class though?
#11 LuisCarlos17f Dec 14, 2014 3:11:28	I remember this class feature from classic AD&D gladiator:   Armor optimiation: A gladiator learns to optimize his armor when he reaches 5th level. He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. Provided the gladiator is wearing armor, his armor class is reduced by one for every five levels (-1 at 5th-9th level, -2 at 10th-14th level, -3 at 15-19th level, -4 at 20th level). This benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren’t wearing armor. Some magical items (like a ring of protection +2), do not count as armor while others (such as bracers of defense) do. The DM must rule on a case-by-case basis.     Another special class, from 4th ed, was the training with a great master, something like a extra super-feat you could buy and use for five levels, but a body slot for magic item had to be rejected.   I see gladiators like fighters without heavy armour (but a special type, the secutor), to fight 1 vs 1 or againts a monster beast.
#12 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 14, 2014 4:51:17	Anybody can be made to fight in an arena and can choose to fight flamboyantly to impress an audience - so a gladiator character shouldn't have to take a specific class in order to feel able to do so.   The classic gladiator, especially as viewed by D&D, was a warrior class (thus a variation upon the fighter class). The class had a few details to it which I'd like to break down individually. Ability Score Requirements: A normal fighter had to have a Strength of 9+. A gladiator had to have Strength 13+, Dexterity 12+, and Constitution 15+. This was because, at the time, requiring higher ability scores meant making the class less common because it was standard to roll scores, and that reduction in commonality was considered to be part of excusing the class being more mechanically potent than the basic options. In 5e, there is no such thing as an ability score requirement, and the balance between classes is assumed to exist because they have roughly equal power, so this aspect of the gladiator class is unneeded. Automatic Proficiency in All Weapons: A Dark Sun fighter had limited "slots" for proficiency. The gladiator got them all at character creation. In 5e, fighters get (effectively) proficiency with all weapons, so there is no way to make the gladiator superior other than implementing a house-ruled "screw everybody else that normally would get all simple and all martial weapons." Specialization in Multiple Weapons: Standard fighters could only specialize in one weapon, and gladiators were again able to skip that limitation. In 5e, this is another area where the standard fighter rule has effectively been elevated to what the gladiator rule was, so there is no space to give the gladiator a special feature emulating this one without first actively taking things away from other classes. Expert in Unarmed Combat: The gladiator received a bonus to unarmed combat that the fighter didn't get. In 5e, this is something that is achieved by things as simple as taking proficiency in the Athletics skill and/or taking the Tavern Brawler feat. 5th Level Armor Optimization: The gladiator received a +1 bonus to AC for every 5 levels which applied while wearign armor, and the fighter didn't get this benefit. AD&D had an absolute maximum AC value, and it wasn't unlikely to reach it, so this bonus isn't quite as potent as it might seem - and 5e has changed the intention of AC values in such a way that the exact benefit doesn't translate well. It is roughly equivalent to Unarmored Defence in the bonus it provides, except it relies on being armored... so it is pretty much exactly like taking the Defense fighting style so that you can have a +1 bonus to AC whenever wearing armor. In all other ways, excluding the minor detail of the gladiator's first group of followers being specified as other gladiators, the fighter and gladiator classes were identical.   So as you can see, what was once a class called Gladiator has been brought forward from AD&D to 3rd, 3.5, 4th, and 5e with a single change, it's name, while the class called Fighter was removed from the game after the Gladiator class took it's name.   I'm fond of the gladiator I just built in my mind. He's a battlemaster fighter that carries a multitude of weapons (pair of gladius, some number of tridents, at least one net), carries a shield but doesn't always use it, wears whatever armor he can get his hands on but has no issue fighting without (that's what the shield is for), and relies on maneuvers such as evasive footwork, goading attack, lunging attack, trip attack, and menacing attack more than the others he might know.
#13 cowleymen Dec 14, 2014 9:08:11	TO be honest, I think the Battle Master would already make a great Gladiator. Maybe just create new manuvers geared for darksun if they decided to release more the just psionic character creation stuff in the books for it. Darksun almost always has different armor anyways, so I really dont think it needs to be anything else.
#14 draegn Dec 14, 2014 10:11:00	Give a fighter some acting/oratory skills that allow him or her to inspire the mob to vote thumbs up instead of down. Then add weapon specializations and skills to round out the various kinds of gladiators.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_gladiator_types
#15 LuisCarlos17f Dec 14, 2014 11:37:34	You should remember the gladiator isn´t to fight only in the arena, but also in dungeons and battlefield. A pit figther is a theme/background and gladiator like Espartacus is other thing.   Maybe the gladiator has special class features what are activated when she loses hit points...it could be a interesting final dungeon boss' bodyguard.   A subtype of gladiator may be a executioner, and the killed in the arena would be used to recharge some cursed magic item. Or the gladiators would be trained to use no-so-magic weapons only could be used in the arena.. (the circus would be the true magic item, not the weapons)... for example a gladiator would use a sword-snake, a blade what would change to a spiked-chain... or the gladiators would be "actors" roleplaying a battlefliend againts minions who really are only illusory magic... (but with true gore effects). Any gladiators woulnd´t be really fighters but althetes running an obstacle race with traps.. (and a magic boots to jump)......or why not only a sportman playing a fantasy version of football/rugby like "Bloodbowl" from Games Workshop? A mixture of wrestling and fantasy American football.    * How would be a ogre or a minotaur with levels of gladiator class?
#16 Hebitsuikaza Dec 14, 2014 12:04:08	Gladiator would probably work best as a background.   The Fighter class already has virtually everything you need in terms of raw mechanical abilities. A noncombat ability and the couple extra skills or proficiencies that might be needed could easily be wrapped up into a background.   The thing is that fundamentally, the Gladiator is not trying to do something mechanically that the Fighter doesn't do. The Psion, the Warlord, the Artificer... those all aim to do things that aren't covered by other class particularly well. Sure, one can take the Wizard and just claim their powers are derived from Psionics instead of Magic and there might be some way to plug a Battlemaster Fighter and a Valor Bard together and take the right feats to sort of mimic a Warlord, but the results just won't feel close enough.   But fundamentally you aren't going to really be doing anything mechanically with the Gladiator that couldn't be accomplished with a straight Fighter. If you are adamant about them having other abilities, you might dip into Barbarian or Bard or Rogue for a bit, but those concepts just aren't core to what the Gladiator is all about-- they are just side distractions that no one is even going to fully agree with. Primarily it is still going to boil down to Fighter with the right background.
#17 Ashrym Dec 14, 2014 12:19:20	Gladiator is a background already. It's the entertainer variant background. I think the class is already doable with that variant on a battle master.
#18 bonethug0108 Dec 14, 2014 12:30:56	Not sure if this has been suggested, but if this is something you are going to be using in an arena you could think about doing a "sub"system instead of a class. That way all characters that participate in the arena as gladiators can benefit regardless of their base class. This could also potentially limit what magic effects are allowed, if any(maybe something like only spells that make attack rolls and spells that buff only the caster). You could do something special with crits(they really get the crowd going). Etc.
#19 LuisCarlos17f Dec 14, 2014 23:49:10	The pit fighter can be a background, but gladiator variant class is different. It is a fighter without heavy armour, faster and can use the most exotic weapons you could find, for example a "living tentacle" what is a animated construct spiked chain, who get special bonus when suffers damage (bloodied state, for example) and speciality is one vs one. Maybe in a fantasy world could be hired to be a champion in a honor duel.    * Have you readen about Roman naumachias? and about the retiarius (gladiator with net)?
#20 eventhorizon1 Dec 15, 2014 0:19:19	iam reading them now,@luis. i think for dark sun purpose it needs to be its own class any sugestion on abilities?
#21 Hebitsuikaza Dec 15, 2014 2:15:36	LuisCarlos17f wrote:
#22 eventhorizon1 Dec 15, 2014 2:51:04	check out the complete gladiators hand book and dragon magazine  issue 303 of dragonand campaing setting of dark sun they are way more than justa fighter  i think at leats for me i am going to try and make it a class in my campaign
#23 Hebitsuikaza Dec 15, 2014 4:11:00	eventhorizon1 wrote:
#24 LuisCarlos17f Dec 15, 2014 5:45:45	Each class needs three things:   - Right balance of power, of course.   - A mark of identity, a interesting background. The soulborn and incarnate from "magic of incarnum" were too paladin-like. Example of failed class.   - Fun gameplay. The psionic wilder had got a special game mechanic, the wild surge and psychic enervation but too boring to be used by lot of players.       How to give a special style for the gladiator variant class?   My suggestions are:   - No heavy armour but with armor optimitation and faster.   - Some feat or certain class features where the prequisite is to be injuried/hurt, bloodied state (half of total hit points) or a sucessful attack.      ---   In a D&D world there are lots of posibilities for gladiators, for example the kombats would be no-lethal damage but with illusory weapons with gore effects, or battlefields where the wathers would use the magic version of TV cameras. Mabye battlefields with werebeasts because without silver or magic weapons the damage wouldn´t be totally mortal.
#25 Hebitsuikaza Dec 15, 2014 7:46:25	Luis, you are describing something there that might work in one or two specific worlds, but in no means is something that would be universal across all worlds. In most worlds only the most evil of races would even have gladiator battles-- and evil races tend not to have enough power in most settings in order to be able to set up such a system. It requires some very specific social constructs to exist.   Of course, perhaps something similar could work on a voluntary basis in other worlds-- but then they would just be duelists. People who go around to find others who boast about their skills being the best and then take them on one-on-one in light armor with weapon skill determining the fight.   But this all still seems exactly like a Fighter. And say "they can't use have armor, but they get the same AC regardless" is not really a drawback-- getting the benefit of equipment without having to pay for the equipment is never a drawback.   Although it is sounding more and more like this ought to be a Barbarian path. Most of the things being listed as features of this concept are already integrated into the Barbarian.
#26 tubadancross Dec 15, 2014 8:51:37	I would go fighter as base-concept (second wind sounds perfecct for a gladiator), give them Barbarian unarmored defense, remove proficiency in heavy armor and martial ranged weapons, and make nets count as a light weapon that can also be used to give you advantage or reach on grapple checks. Maybe give them proficiency in performance, too.
#27 rampant Dec 15, 2014 11:00:11	You could build a gladiator sub-class, or even class buy building a warrior type that emphasized various tricks and abilities based on social and performance skills , possibly with a panache system installed, but somehow I doubt that's what people are after here.
(Reply to #26) AaronOfBarbaria	tubadancross wrote:
#29 autolycus Dec 15, 2014 11:41:32	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#30 eventhorizon1 Dec 15, 2014 18:43:50	ok for dark sun it is either going to be a classs or arctype i just wanted suggestion what clas abilities do you think i have a whole book on them i get that the  fighetr has mechanic wise what i need  but there is also a crod sub system fame
#31 cowleymen Dec 15, 2014 19:21:47	Like I said, a battlemaster already works perfectly for the Gladiator. Just a few new manuvers to play up the performance aspect of the concept. Manuvers that cause will saves or be become frightened. IDK all the battlemaster manuvers off the top of my head.
#32 rampant Dec 15, 2014 19:25:57	Look if you want a gladiator class/ sub-class you need to define what will make it a GLADIATOR for you or I can't be much help.
#33 eventhorizon1 Dec 15, 2014 19:37:23	this is what i started  its all i have so far        Gladiator Armor: all armor and shield Weapons:  special proficiency with unique weapons also all standard ones. Tools: weapons kit. This kit has the equipment need to repair stone, wood, or bone, weapons and armor. Sometime a DM may call for a check if special items are needed to fix certain items. You add your proficiency bonus to the check. These repairs take place during down time activities. Even though a check maybe required to obtain some of the materials the cost is as follows for each material. Bone- 01 -33%. Wood 34- 69%. Bone 70-100% these percentage rolls determine which material you will be able to repair in a 24 hour period until another attempt can be made. If you roll make a repair and roll a second dc ability check (survival)  DC is 8+ number of repairs then that weapon no longer suffers the breakage rules .the maximum repairs that can be made is a number of critical hits equal to 10 times. Renown: Arena acting: at 3rd level  Armor optimization: 5 level Unarmed combat: 7th level Gladiator’s cunning: 9th level Brutal display: 13level: 15th level 18th level Battle mind: 20
#34 rampant Dec 15, 2014 19:55:59	None of which actually means anything.   What does a gladiator do? How should he do it? don't worry about specific abilities just give a general rn down of what a gladiator does, and his approach, for example sorceror:   A sorceror manipulates magic derived from their ancestry this allows them to alter and empower their spells more fluidly than traditional spell casters.   Also your repair kit seems wonky as heck is that pulled form an older edition or am I not finding the full rules for destroying weapons in the 5e books?
#35 eventhorizon1 Dec 15, 2014 21:42:44	ok i have to think of that that rule is from a dark sun splat book ill clean it up
#36 Caliburn Dec 16, 2014 1:09:18	I understand your dilemna here.   I have wanted to convert the various and numerous prestige classes from the Scarred Lands campaign world to 5th Edition and haven't yet had any inspiration on how best to do them.   I am hoping the rules on converting from other editions will include a useful toolset for doing so.   When we will get those added to the online ruleset, I have no idea...
#37 LuisCarlos17f Dec 16, 2014 4:16:37	When an archetype is too famous and popular it should be an (variant) class.      Now I have got a doubt. Let´s imagine there will be a new "Tome of Battle: book of nine swords", with the "martial adept" classes. Then WotC will be a "demo" class for each new power source with special game mechanic. The demo of martial adept is the gladiator, a fighter with some manevuers.    * Have you thought about it? What if in D&D world the gladiators wear invisible heavy armour? The public would be watching a female gladiator wearing the classic chainmail bikini, but really she is using a invisible heavy amour. The illusiry magic also would create gore effects like spilling blood. A group a goblins were suffering "fatalities" by gladiators, but those goblins wouldn´t be real but illusory monsters.   * Another option is gladiators like half-golems, voluntaries for magic experiments to avoid death penalty. Another monsters of the circus would be failed experiments.
#38 Orzel Dec 16, 2014 4:46:51	To me a gladiator is the "anti specialist". They work well with any armor or weapon they can find or are given. They don't rely on high stats but on just being most adaptable. Like they can switch fighting styles on the fly.
#39 Lawolf Dec 16, 2014 9:36:23	Doesn't the "Performer" background have a gladiator option?   I don't think a full on subclass is needed, let alone a class. What about a feat.   Gladiator Feat -You gain proficiency with improvised weapons and you may add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make as part of an improvised action that does not already include your proficiency bonus. -You gain a fighting style of your choice. -When you reduce an enemy to 0 HP, you can choose Guts or Glory. If you choose Guts, all enemies within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be frightened until the end of your next turn. If you choose Glory, all allies within 30 feet of you gain temporary hit points equal to half your level + your Charisma modifier.
#40 Mephi1234 Dec 16, 2014 9:31:37	Make a few Manuevers.   Take battlemaster.  Fix the Martial Adapt feat to make it less sucky and actually attractive.   Viola!
#41 ChrisCarlson Dec 16, 2014 9:31:41	Yeah. I'd go Battlemaster Fighter, Performer background, Tavern Brawler feat. Done.   Though I do like your feat idea, Lawolf. But I'd probably toss the improvised weapons portion (isn't that the Tavern Brawler feat's shtick already) and instead grant a +1 Constitution perhaps.
#42 shpelley Dec 16, 2014 10:06:11	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#43 eventhorizon1 Dec 16, 2014 10:59:02	i am writing it up now as its own class again simply for the setting i just think it deserves to be a martial class ill be using the complete gladiators handbook with all the dragon mag.articles and the book of 9 swords and a 2 sub systems fame..and dispostion how the crowd reacts to his performance and in arena comabt he will get certain buffs
#44 rampant Dec 16, 2014 11:16:22	So with no coherent approach, no thought to how useless a crowd based powerset is unless you chain yoursefl to the arena and only fight during business hours, This is not how you build classes.   What does a gladiator do and how does he do it? Unless you can answer that don't bother with anything else, and you'r ebeing very evasive on that question.
#45 eventhorizon1 Dec 16, 2014 23:26:19	What does a gladiator do and how does he do it?       The gladiator is a specialized fighter trained for public displays of combat. They are skilled in the use of many obscure weapons and combat techniques, including those peculiar among the general population. These exotic weapons and combat techniques are specific to combat games and popular blood sports. They are trained to fight and kill for the whims of others.
#46 rampant Dec 17, 2014 0:30:56	Ok you're describing a sub-class of fighter with exotic weapons and obscre combat techniques derived from bloodsport.    Exotic weapons ar e aproblem becase well they don't exist in 5e so far.    Ok What I would suggest is that level 3 you give them Panache, this is a resource pool they can use for special gladiator powers that allow you to mix performance and combat, and let them learn up three maneuvers that use panache, then you alternate more panache, with new maneuvers, and gladiator tecniques, and this are where you things like the net trick: The DC to escape a net thrown by you increases to 8 + Youur Proficiency bonus.   The gladiator techniques are nifty little passive or at-will abilities. The maneuvers are bit more grandiose for example something like this : Make an Entrance - During your first round of combat, or the surprise round if you act in the surprise round, you may spend 1 point of Panache, if you do so every creature within 60ft that can see or hear you atomatically becomes aware of your presence and position. In addition they have disadvantage on perception checks against anything that isn't you until the start of your next turn. Finally You gain advantage on any attack rolls or intimidation cheks you make during your first turn turn, and your target recieves disadvantage on their saves vs. intimidation, knockdown, or push.    Stuff alon those lines. Basically the panache stuff is for putitng on a show, while the gladiator techniques are the nitty gritty techniques that make the show possible.
#47 ChrisCarlson Dec 17, 2014 6:45:13	rampant wrote:
#48 shpelley Dec 17, 2014 7:56:38	rampant wrote:
#49 eventhorizon1 Dec 17, 2014 10:40:12	@shpelley thats pretty darn close to how  i am writing it up now. keep in mind this is dark sun specific so when someone asks me what th gladiator brings to the table i would say read both boxed campaign settings and the novels. so teh weapons are excotic to say the least with properties that will be ither a bonus action or at will. he will have "gaze attacks to study his oppenst find thier weekness ect.. a few will be strictly for the arena which are in all teh major city states and then some. your description for :gaze attack" is dead on thanks at this point this is what iam now looking at a sub class is what i have settled on. i will also be using some of the gladiator playtest paket stuff now that i have the books. thats any other sugestions on this sub class would be helpful.
#50 cowleymen Dec 17, 2014 10:57:23	Follow the battle master. Even though you have different "manuvers" and some fluff techniques, if your subclass seems more powerful, then you proabably need to change how often abilities can be used or how powerful they are.
#51 LuisCarlos17f Dec 17, 2014 11:41:59	If there is open licence, maybe we will see the gladiator class created by other company.   My suggestion is to create the gladiator like the fourth martial adept class, with the warblade, swordsage and the crusader from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords". It would be the best marketing choise for that archetype.   * The gladiator isn´t only to play campaings in the arena, but also to play ex-gladiators with groups of heroes exploring dungeons.    * Could a gladiator subclass to cast arcane spells like the warmage and hexblade?    * In a fantasy world gladiators could use a tower shield what shoots nets and a trident what could catch like a claw, and the circus would be legal where gladiators fight illusory monsters without real damage.
#52 rampant Dec 17, 2014 13:25:21	I think the gladiator concept works better with te concept of panache from Pathfinder's duelist, but with modified maneuvers for a less refined combat style.
#53 Akodo_Akira Dec 17, 2014 16:58:19	Maybe look at this for inspiration, both for "What a Gladiator Does" and "What would a Dark Sun Gladiator look like Mechanically"   http://dfds.wikia.com/wiki/Gladiator
#54 eventhorizon1 Dec 18, 2014 1:45:48	thank you for the link akodo, and rampant i will look at the pathfinder dualist. this thread turned out better than i hope i now have enough material to finish writing up the gladiator. if however anyone has other class feature suggestions by all means lets hear them.