Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ClockworkNecktie Jul 09, 2014 18:17:37	It looks like they've decided that damage on a miss wasn't worth the hassle and redone Great Weapon Fighting. Unfortunately, their choice of replacement seems (to me at least) rather unsatisfying.   First off, it is weirdly biased against greataxes, which receive half the benefit of mauls and greatswords. There is already a thread about this.   Second, it is straight-up mathematically inferior to Dueling. Dueling gives +2 damage on every hit, while GWF gives about +1.33 damage per hit with a greatsword. This seems completely arbitrary. (Math: 2d6 with 1s and 2s rerolled averages (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/6*2= 8.333. Straight 2d6 averages 7.)   Third - and this may just be personal preference - it adds more time at the table for little benefit. If my level 12 fighter is attacking six times in a turn with Action Surge, that's a lot of potential rerolls for a pretty minimal bonus to damage. I'd rather just take a straight bonus like Dueling, and I will probably use that as a house rule. But I guess if playtesters just love rerolling ones I'm in the minority here.   Does this greatly impact balance? I don't think so, especially if the PHB has good feats for great weapon users. But it seems like a minor missed opportunity.
#2 mestewart3 Jul 09, 2014 18:26:13	ClockworkNecktie wrote:
#3 mellored Jul 09, 2014 18:39:04	It's pretty good with any 2d6.  Note that it boosts critical hits as well.   Two weapon fighting is sub-par.  It doesn't keep up.
#4 ClockworkNecktie Jul 09, 2014 19:30:50	mellored wrote:
#5 Karnos Jul 09, 2014 19:34:14	ClockworkNecktie wrote:
#6 Paraxis Jul 09, 2014 19:34:36	Since the GWF style works with all damage dice, if rangers stay the same as playtest with slayer's momentum than they will make good use of it.  If they ever publish a versatile finese weapon fighter/rogues will love to reroll 1's and 2's on sneak attack dice.
#7 Fantasyfilmsman Jul 09, 2014 20:34:41	My son runs one with a Great Axe. He loved the playtest version and on this weekends play it never got used. So I cannot comment but turning a 1 into a 6 is pretty good if you ask me. As you get stuck with a 1 then with +2 you get only 3. Rolling back to back 1's is pretty low so getting a 6 which is avg + str bonus can turn quite deadly. Add an action surge and most monsters that have around 20 to 30 hp at play level 2 or 3 are pretty much dead. Add in the increase lvls with dmg dice and the potential becomes pretty good.
#8 FFSAA Jul 09, 2014 22:05:18	It turns a rogue's crit greatsword attack from 24d6 + 5  = 89 average to 105 average.  Although if an assassin maxes their sneak dice still that'll be 139 vs 142, so not much difference.
#9 masterfat78 Jul 09, 2014 22:14:29	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #8) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#11 CVB Jul 09, 2014 22:49:42	I prefer the beta version of GWF.  I'll keep using it.
#12 FFSAA Jul 09, 2014 22:50:44	masterfat78 wrote:
#13 FFSAA Jul 09, 2014 22:56:51	CVB wrote:
#14 Psikerlord Jul 09, 2014 23:29:51	mestewart3 wrote:
#15 Ramzour Jul 10, 2014 1:02:10	It would be great if people on these forums could stop spreading lies and misinformation. The Basic Rules have been out for a week. It's not that hard to read 110 pages.   Anyway, back to the OP's point. I enjoy the new GWF in the Basic Rules. The ability to re-roll 1's and 2's is awesome. While it might not, on average, confer the same +2 damage benefit as Dueling, don't forget that Heavy Weapons deal more damage to begin with, so you're still ahead damage wise. I mean, really....complaining about the difference between +2 and +1.33? Fractional DPR numbers are silly in a game like D&D. You don't make enough white-room attacks to notice these things. D&D is not an MMO to be fine-tuned for perfect balance.   I think the motivation behind the GWF mechanic is interesting and flavorful, while increasing your effective damage with the weapon. That's exactly what I want in a Fighting Style.
#16 JohnLynch Jul 10, 2014 1:12:15	What does a reroll all 1s and 2s do to the greatsword fighter's DPR?
(Reply to #12) darius	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #16) Polaris	JohnLynch wrote:
#19 Joe_the_Rat Jul 10, 2014 6:01:20	darius wrote:
#20 Lokiron Jul 10, 2014 6:28:00	Would it make the style OP to just make them true "brutal", so you get to re-roll 1s and 2s infinitely? And maybe allow the greataxe to reroll 3s as well.
#21 mellored Jul 10, 2014 6:47:56	Joe_the_Rat wrote:
#22 Joe_the_Rat Jul 10, 2014 6:41:24	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#24 mellored Jul 10, 2014 6:58:02	Joe_the_Rat wrote:
#25 FFSAA Jul 10, 2014 7:10:24	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #25) Lokiron	FFSAA wrote:
#27 mellored Jul 10, 2014 7:34:07	Even if you had...   Katana: 2d4  2-handed, finess. GWF + Sneak attack would still not be overpowered.   Strong, but not overpowered.
#28 thehobb Jul 10, 2014 7:55:26	Second, it is straight-up mathematically inferior to Dueling. Dueling gives +2 damage on every hit, while GWF gives about +1.33 damage per hit with a greatsword. This seems completely arbitrary. (Math: 2d6 with 1s and 2s rerolled averages (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/6*2= 8.333. Straight 2d6 averages 7.)   I'm pretty sure this math is wrong.   Rerolling 1s and 2s means a d6 becomes effectively 1d4+2 which has an average of 4.5. Two rolls added together yield an average of 9 damage, not 8.333. In addition to that, the minimum which can be rolled is 6 whereas a flat +2 means the minimum which could be rolled is 4. However, the maximum damage is unchanged with GWF and it's +2 with Duelling.   So. while the average damage between the two choices is equal, there is a higher minimum and lower maximum (and therefore tigher results) than Duelling which has the potential of higher damage, but also the potential of lower damage. If I understand the issues correctly.
#29 Lawolf Jul 10, 2014 8:01:21	thehobb wrote:
(Reply to #25) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#31 AH_schulerta Jul 10, 2014 8:05:32	This has been a popular topic on this forum and the Rules Questions forum. For my campaigns both weapons are d12, and GWF gives advantage on the roll. Cleaner, faster and 8.49 avg damage for both.
(Reply to #30) Lokiron	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#33 mellored Jul 10, 2014 8:13:26	thehobb wrote:
(Reply to #29) thehobb	Lawolf wrote:
#35 The_Jester Jul 10, 2014 8:54:02	I think dueling is better than GWF in a vaccuum, but the weapons have lower damage so the bonus just brings them up to the level of a great weapon. So GWF just makes two-handers even better.
#36 mellored Jul 10, 2014 9:00:51	Still should factor in the GWF crits   1.3333333333 * 1.05 = 1.4
#37 Pyromantic Jul 10, 2014 9:00:57	Whether or not GWF style becomes more powerful with other features that allow you to reroll extra dice remains to be seen I think.  I seriously doubt this is something that didn't come up in playtesting, so I'm hopeful it was taken into consideration.   On the OP's points, I generally disagree.  As to how it interacts with greataxe, I think that's an issue with the greataxe (which may well be resolved in PHb for all we know with other options, but again we'll have to wait and see.)  I have no opinion one way or another at the moment about rerolls slowing down the table.  That's going to vary from table to table and is very subjective.  I don't expect it's a big deal since there's practically no math or decision-making involved (the only exception I can think of is the very rare occasion you might consider keeping a 2.)   As to whether or not it's "straight-up mathematically inferior to dueling," it's definitely not that simple for a few reasons, even before considering the possibility of additional dice from other sources.  Firstly, while the expected damage on a hit is slightly lower with GWF than +2, it also comes with a slightly lower variance, which is a point in its favour.  Secondly, the GWF benefit applies to extra dice from crits while a straight +2 would not see any additional benefit.  (Note expected damage on 4d6 with a reroll of 1 and 2 is higher than 4d6+2.)  This means that the higher the ratio of crits to normal hits, the more the expected damage of GWF catches up to (or possibly exceeds) that of a straight +2.  I did some modelling of this and if you had to choose between GWF and +2 damage, it appears it would give the +2 a very slight advantage most of the time, but it's extremely close--much closer than greataxe with GWF to greatsword with GWF for comparison.   Ultimately though, I think the point is that you're not deciding between +2 damage or rerolls of 1s and 2s because they are available in mutually exclusive situations; you're deciding between a character using a build that includes dueling or a character using a build that includes great weapon fighting.  Alternatively, you're deciding between great weapon fighting and other options like defense.  Because dueling and great weapon fighting occur in different contexts it is not immediately obvious how to weigh their respective benefits.  I don't believe this kind of analysis could lead to anything conclusive without looking at the appropriate builds in a more complete manner.
#38 mellored Jul 10, 2014 10:43:06