Ok I know there's been a ton of speculation regarding psionics, but a lot of it centers around the structure of psionic classes, what if there aren't any?
Instead, what if psionics are gained through feats?
You wouldn't be able to create the concept of a characater that specializes in their psionic capabilities; a concept where psionics is the core of the character, not just an add on.
No thanks.
Feats could be used for Wild Talents. Personally I would either like to see the 2E psion or make it a sorcerer archetype.
arnwolf666 wrote:
What was so great about the 2e psionicist? All I've ever heard are horror stories.
As for the not being able to play the dedicated psionic, well admittedly if your DM kills the feat switch you're correct, however Feats are both potent and versatile a character who spent all of them on on psionics could get pretty pumped, to say nothing of the fighters and their extra feats.
However Yes even with a feat focused approach I could see a single full on psionic class, and several sub-classes for particular psionic archetypes like the mind-spies (rogue and/or fighter), the yogis (monk), the birsirkr (barbarian), and the wilders (sorceror).
rampant wrote:
So does that mean you can not have psionics until gaining a feat at level 4?
lawrencehoy wrote:
Random power selection is iffy to me, I mean it can work if you're talking something like the better 4e themes where it's fairly build neutral and you can set your buy-in to a degree, but if done poorly it could get really bad.
lawrencehoy wrote:
Siphersh wrote:
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
Hell no.
If you're going to go through the toruble of introducing psionics have the decency to do it right and not make it just re-skinned spell casting, especially not the feats and wild talents.
rampant wrote:
rampant wrote:
A universal subclass could be created. Maybe something like the "wilder", a interesting concept, but it needs a right but fun gameplay. The class features of wilder's psychic enervation wasn´t interesting for me.
What do you thinkg about a psionic wilder, but with "backlash points"? When a wilder fails the wild surge and she suffers a psychic enervation, but she wouldn´t lose psionic power points..but to ge "blackslash points", an anti-psionic power points used by the DM to "punish" the wilder, creating astral constructs, psionic traps of metamagic effects of enemies' powers, something like paradox from Mage: the Ascesion.
I like the feat idea, as I think 1e psychic powers had the least fringe/added on after the fact feel to them. Also, it fits better with existing "psychic" monsters, and it seems like the easiest way to build psychic subclasses (one signature ability like the psychic fighter can use mage hand to make a melee attack and 1 psychic feat right off the bat, and then after that you get another psychic feat when the subclass gets a new feature, with one bigger power for the last subclass feature). Plus a player who wants their PC to be extra psychic (or even a little psychic if the PC isn't in a psychic class/subclass) can have the PC take psychic feats instead of normal feats or stat boosts.
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
My sugestion would be to make spell slots and whatever the psionic system will be interchangeble.
So you could basicly swap out the spellcasting class feature, for the psionic class feature.
and you would translate the table that shows the spell slots you have to psionic power points and at what levels you can get acces to certain powers.
I think psions are just sorcerers with a subclass that doesn't suck.
A feat based pychic class seems like it would be pretty easy to build as well:
At first level, you get 3 psychic feats and X points (# of points increases per level like a sorcerer). You can use the points to reuse the feats between rests (if the feat power is once per rest) and to reuse (between rests), twin, or raise the level (up to the maximum level you could cast) of subclass spells. At 3rd level, subclass spells don't require material components, at 9th level, subclass spells don't require gestures, at 15th level, no verbal component, and at 20th, they aren't affected by antimagic fields or counterspells/dispel magic.
Subclasses would be: telepath, telekinetic, and pyrokinetic.
Subclass grants another psychic feat, two cantrips (for example friendship and viscious mockery for telepath), and a list of spells per level. You get one use of each noncantrip spell of the appropriate level per long or short rest (at the lowest level the spell can be cast) without spending a point on, and after that, it is one point per spell level.
Throw in some subclass abilities that aren't spells (or are spells at lower level like knowledge cleric's mind reading).
I suppose Professor X trumps Carrie, so it will end up being Int casting instead of Cha casting, even though I think Cha is thematically more appropriate (force of will and all that).
A feat focused approach in dark sun would look the same as it does in other settings, although there are probably more psi-sub-classes introduced, and maybe every character gets one psi-feat free at character creation to represent both the increased prevalence of psionic power and the general extra level of oomph darksunners are supposed to have.
Although I'm begining to think We'd be better off with a hybrid approach 1 actual psi-oriented class, lots of sub-classes for specific psionic archetypes that don't mesh with the dedicated psi-class, and feats for wild talents that can be incorporated with just about any class. Part of the issue I had with 3e psionics was that most of the classes came off as psionic-(Insert extant class name here), 4e just had weak psionic class concepts outside the psion, well monk wasn't a weak class concept like the ardent or the other one, but it was only weakly connected to psionics it had been designed to be part of a ki power source and the devs decided that Ki had essnetially become the asian powersource and dropped it, so the monk gets shuffled into psionics, probably should have been labled as a martial controller, but I can see why they went psionic striker with it. Anyway one really well done psionic class backed up by feats and sub-classes should be more than able to pull it off.
As for power point (or whatever) and spell lot interchangeability, no, not a good plan. Psionics shouldn't even be using powers as discrete as spells they should have fewer more broadly modifiable powers, and none of this cherry picking nonsense, if you want to erupt telpathy after a bit you should have to work for it.
rampant wrote:
Another option for wilder could be a psionic with "incarnum soulmelds", a hybrid class.
For sorcerer my suggestion is a bloodline subclass about gem dragons.
* What about the sciencies and devotions from 2nd ed? A pool of power psionic points would be for daily powers, and the other for encounter. The psion could be for the daily psionic, and the wilder for the encounter powers.
Seriously Luis, why is everything incarnum with you? Honestly there's a bit of an issue with porting incarnum to 5e, namely that a lot of the numbers that the system runs on don't apply anymore. All the save, attack, ac, and most of the skill bonuses become flat out innappropriate. If you want to do incarnum style in 5e we're probably looking at a far more limited list of melds and effects than in 3e.
That said Incarnum style is really good for at-wills, not so much anything else, and it's a bit complex to try to build it in as a feature of a feature hmmmmmm...
I could see it as a shaper thing if we wanted to ressurect that discipline, maybe.
The problem with incarnum is that it was built around the cool new magic system so it's hard to map it to external archetypes the totemist acutally came closest in this regard and that's why I like it better than the other two, note to self: next 3e game consider totemist. If we wanted to do incarnum 5e I'd suggest the necrocarnum, the totemist, and a re-worked incarnate/chamelon/binder/soulborn/azureblade hybrid that focused less directly on alignment and more on heroic archetypes as the classes, or on a single soulmelder class with those as the three sub-classes that controlled most if not all of their meld access.
arnwolf666 wrote:
Don't try to make psionic powers into spells, there will be similarities but we really need to avoid falling into that trap.
rampant wrote:
The problem isn't the casting of spells its the gaining and allotment of spells. One of the biggest complaints I have towards the 3e psionic classes is that they ignore one of the cardinal differences between casters and psychics.
A psychic is someone with special abilities, developing one's psychic power is not a matter of stealing someone else's formula, or begging it off a demon or god, for multiple crushing telekinetic holds it's about developing your own ability to crush and hold multiple targets with your telekinesis. It's a power you have to wield and develop you can't get multiple crushin holds without first leanring crush, hold, and multi-targeting but once you learn those tricks you don't need a special power or dedicated spell you simply learn to modify your telekinesis on the fly without that pre-packaged crap. And you most certainly do not gain the ability to dominate or mind seed without puttign extensive work into developing telepathy before hand, it's bad enough that mages cherry pick their spells all willy nilly it's actively against archetype for psionics to do it, yes psions can devleop or erupt powers for multiple disciplines but they then have to refine their new powers they don't get to skip straight to complex mental alloys with dozens or hundreds of creatures just because they decided to start dabbling in telepathy at a high level.
rampant wrote:
Mechatarrasque wrote:
Or you could do something that actually keeps the psions from turning in to wizards with point casting. You have talents or powers or whatever that are at-will abilities and augments that cost power points and allow you to mod the talent/power on the fly.
Warlocks could use powers with a different game mechanic, for example a subclass with vestige pacts, truename or shadow mysteries from 3.5 Binder.
* And we need a different XP reward system if PCs are psionic manifiesters in dead-magic zones but where psionice powers can be used.
* Could players use a second PC with a psionic mental link to the first character? Can players use two PCs if these share any telepathic link?
Luis what are you on about with the warlocks?
As for the dead magic zones, no just no, those are a terirble thind to build the game around and I'm sick of hearing about them.
Hell, no, you might be able to dominate or mindseed someone through a link, but that's as close as you get to a 2nd PC.
Sorry, I am Spanish, English isn´t my naive languange, and anytimes I don´t understand very well any phrasal verbs.
+ Now I am thinking about the soulknife... Why not a subclass with psionic powers and "ki" maneuvers? Why to create only a sword, why not to create a spiked chain or a shield?
+ One of my crazy ideas is to create a hybrid class with two different power sources, psionic and incarnum, a "summoner" with a "magic pet", mixing the incarnum souspark and astral constructs, and getting some ideas of the summoner class from pathfinder rpg.
Azzy1974 wrote:
rampant wrote:
Hey Rampant, long time, no See ^^
Ok, so after playing the game, finally, for like a lot of sessions and levels and campaigns, these are my observations:
In a campaign where players are allowed to roll custom dice methods to get high stats, spending feats to get psionics makes some sense. In a game where the stats are locked down for some kind of group rules of an organization, or just a particularly strict DM style, most people will be desperate to spend most of their feats on attributes for most of their career, so a psionic feat chain is just not likely, not without crippling the character.
Feats are also really powerful in 5e, like the equivalent of several feats from 3e. Meanwhile, in 3rd edition, you got something like 6-10 feats by level 20, some classes had more or less. Now, when we compare that with say, a 2e psionicist, they had 35 powers by level 20. Of course, 10 powers were major and 25 powers were minor, but in actual play, something like 1 in 5-8 minor powers were actual powers, and not space filler or part of a prerequisite chain. In the Deck of Psionics, with like 200+ powers, there were probably 50-70 good powers, and it was possible to make a character with up to a 60-70% saturation of good powers, a bit more if you focused on psychoportation or psychometabolism. That makes for about 24 good powers by level 20, or at least 14-15 good powers if you took something like Telepathy or Psychokinesis as your main.
In 5e, I'm not really sure what the spell saturation for a wizard is, we haven't had anyone play a pure wizard, but the multiclass characters are looking like 3 + level spells, give or take, plus 1-3 special abilities. Warlocks look like they have way less spells, but there's some strong correlation between warlock progression and how a Psionicist might work. I'm guessing pure wizards would probably have close to twice their level in spells.
So A wizard: 40, multiclass caster: 25, Warlock: 15-20, 2e Metabolist/Portive: 24, 2e Kineticist/'Path: 14-15
total number of feats available by level 20 in 5e: 5, or 6.5 if you count the humans with their +6 instead of +3 stat bonus.
Typically, a 5e feat could be said to count as roughly three feats from 3e (maybe more if you count filler-feats that were prerequisites).
so a 5e feat chain is like 15-20 feats from 3e, but you would lose all your stat bonuses since they are shared space.
Therefore, a single feat for psionics in 5e should be at least as powerful as that Magic Initiate Feat, which is two cantrips + a level 1 spell. 5e cantrips are as powerful as many 1st level spells from previous editions, and that's basically saying you get two innate abilities at will plus a once per day equivalent power.
Some Basic Observations of What Psionics Should and Shouldn't do in 5e
Psions do not outwardly display casting effects most of the time...While the audience is often seeing Auras displayed in anime, just as frequently, the psionic effect requires special technology or power to see/sense the origin point. Psionicists who display physically obvious signs of power use tend to either be really powerful (like how steel starts to glow when hot), or are like putting their fingers on their temples and squinting, nose bleeding, etc.
Psionicists should be the class that can "concentrate" on multiple effects simultaneously. This would be a sharp break from virtually all other casters who can concentrate on one thing at a time. I suggest you guys propose various methods for this, but here's two different ways this could be limited.
Method A) If powers cost points to maintain per round/minute/hour/day, then the limit is how many you can pay for before you have to rest to get your points back.
Method B) If powers don't cost anything, perhaps a variable, such as "Wisdom Modifier" (minimum 1). This would produce between 1-10 concentrations at one time, with most being around 3-5.
Psions should be equal or better at their own Game than Wizards using similar spells. A Psionicist using a power that has a spell that does the same thing, should be as good as a wizard of equal level, UNLESS the power is part of the psionicist's specialty. When a psion is specialized in using a particular power that has a spell equivalent, the Psionicist version should always be better than the wizard of equal level. This is similar to how the Warlock Eldrich blast is better than the Wizard Eldrich blast. Obviously, psionicists don't have Magic Missile, Eldrich Blast, or various Magical sounding spells. But they do have powers that are also spells that specifically mark them, by effect if not outright by name.
Here's a brief list:
Lesser Known (more common to high level psions or anime)
Time Stop, Shapechange, Weird, Wish, Trap the Soul, Demiplane, Control Weather, Project Image, Reverse Gravity, Plane Shift, Etherealness, True Seeing, Disintegrate, Wall of Force, Passwall, Dream, Creation, Contact Other Plane, Animate Objects, Tongues, Fly, See Invisibility, Hold Person/Monster, Mage Hand, Comprehend Languages,
Greater Known (Most people immediately think "Psionics/Psychic!")
Astral Projection, Telepathy, Mind Blank, Feeblemind, Antipathy/Sympathy, Dominate Monster, Teleport, Mass Suggestion, Telekinesis, Modify Memory, Dominate Person, Locate Creature, Feign Death, Clairvoyance, Levitate, Charm Person
now there are numerous other powers, particularly things that allow phasing, blinking, teleporting, transformation, and the endless 'kinesis effects like pyrokinesis and the various adaptations of telekinesis to produce constricting or surface force effects. Levitation usually becomes flight at higher potencies. Telepathic powers usually get complex and elaborate with memory editing, mind control, and Empathy. Psychoportive powers have these characters traveling across the void of space and into other dimensions. Psionicists also "See Dead People", and Talk to Plants & Animals either directly or through Empathic links.
The Psychic Sword/Soul Knife thing is largely based on X-Men's Psylock which Rifts adapted for both the Mind Melter and Cyber Knight. Frankly, it's kind of freaky that this character concept which is so rare in fiction is so popular in RPGs. The Pyrokineticist is way, waaay more common.
Basically, setting things on fire with your mind, blowing up heads, levitating, seeing the future, seeing distant places, controling and reading minds, moving big heavy things with your mind, surrounding yourself with lots of tiny flying projectiles, and traveling in weird dimensional ways are all super common. Healing and loaning (energy, essence, health, etc.) are also super common. Forcefields made of telekinetic stuff are also way common. Possession is also really common, and when a Psionic character dies, they quite often are still around as an undead ghost/wraith/poltergeist mind, sometimes even more powerful.
Backlash is a very common Price Psionicists pay. A Mechanism for taking damage and/or disadvantage represented as nose bleeds, headaches, and even blacking out from trying too hard should be available, if not standard.
rampant wrote:
Examples:
Pathfinder kineticist, or think of the at-will/encounter set up for psionic classes (besides monk) in 4e and extend that out a bit so that ionstead of dozens of at-wills with 2 mods each it's a handful of basic powers with lots of more versatile modsmodifiers that you string together on the fly, or something like the words of magic sorceror from pathfinder's ultimate magic, but a point caster. Really it's kind of sad that pathfinder is better at making psionic type material than the guys writing for games that use psionics openly.
Say you're a pyrokinetic, the basic pyrokinetic power is the ability to set something on fire at distance with your mind, or deal cantrip level fire damage to a target. Then you learn modifier that let syou spend power points to hit multiple targets, another to deal damage and ignite at the same time, a mod for continues damage, a mod for multiple targets, a mod for area bursts, etc. Then you can unload your fire damage however the hell you want instead of dealing with those craptacular spells. Also a mod to upgrade form mere fire to plasma so you can burn things that would laugh off regular fire.
I really don't see why this concept is so hard to get accross it's been done before.
rampant wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
At will power:
Pyrokenises: As an action you may set any flammable object within 60 ft on fire, if it is magical (or similiarly enhanced), or being held/carried by a creature it gets a dex save to prevent this (held/carried items use their holder/carrier's saves) to prevent catching on fire. Alternatively as an action you may deal 1d8 fire damage to a target within 60 ft, the target may make a dex save vs. 8 + your proficiency modifier + Your manifesting ability modifier, to avoid this damage. The damage increases to 2d8 at level 6, to 3d8 at level 11, and to 4d8 at level 16.
Augments:
Burst (2 powerpoints +1 per 5ft of additional radius): Your Pyrokenises targets an area instead of a single target, the initial area is a sphere of 5 ft radius, but you may increase the radius by 5t for every additional power point you spend on this augment.
Multi-targeting (+1 per additional target): You may select an additional target for your pyrokenises for each power point you spend on this augment, the additional instances of pyrokenises have the same augments as the inital one.
Plasma Blast (2 power points): Your pyrokenises ignores resistance to fire, and deals half damage to targets that would normally be immune to fire. In addition you may catch stone and metal on fire and it will burn as easily as wood.
Super heat (+1 power point per additional d8): A manifestation of pyrokenises augmented with Super heat deals +1d8 damage per power point spent on suepr heat.
Continuous Flame (2 power points and concentration): You may sustain a manifestation of Pyrokenises with your will, if you pay for this augment with the intial manifestation you may choose to concentrate on that manifestation. If you do so at the start of your next turn all targets damaged by the initial manifestation take half that damage (they may roll a dex save to prevent this damage), they will continue to be subjected to this effect as long as you maintain your concentration even if they make their subsequent saves, only by avoiding the initial manifestation do they dodge this effect entirely. Alternaticvely things set afire by your pyrokenises will not stop burning even if dunked underwater as long as they are within your range (60 ft barring other powers and abilities), and you have line of sight.
I like this, with the following notes:
rampant wrote:
I'm pretty sure I also mispelled pyrokinesis every time in that post. As for Burst+multi balance Forget the coverage area what happens when you layer the effect, yeah you have to have different targets for the varius manifestations but consider this with the area mod you target areas, just put each manifestation on a different corner of a creature you dislike's space.
Burst (2 powerpoints +2 per 5ft of additional radius): Your Pyrokenises targets an area instead of a single target, the initial area is a sphere of 10 ft radius, but you may increase the radius by 5t for every additional 2 power points you spend on this augment.
Multi-targeting (+2 per additional target): You may select an additional target for your pyrokenises for every two power points you spend on this augment, the additional instances of pyrokenises have the same augments as the inital one. In addition if you use this in conjunction with the burst augment and a target is caught in the area of more than one of the spheres generated by a single manifestation they do not treat each area as a seperate effect instead they take additional damage equal to 1d8 per 2d8 of your pyrokinesis power's damage (round down), per area they're in.
How's that, and for reference I was thinking of using the proficiency bonus as the per manifestation limit, you could only augment a single manifestation with up to your proficiency modifier in power points. Bigger spikes would come from an additional burn system like burning HD or something, I'm still workign on that, but somethign like burn an HD to gain +3 power points that don't count against your limit but must be spent immediately.
Also I thought I did base the save on your manifesting ability modifier?
shintashi wrote:
rampant wrote:
As far as complexity goes it has upsides and downsides: On the upside you're dealing with a smaller number of actual abilities than a traditional caster who generally has at least a dozen distinct spells even at low levels, to say nothing of divine casters and their malleable spell lists. On the downside the PC does have to think a bit harder every time they use their augments, however seeing as the psions are the guys who think their enemies to death I find that to be both an amusing mental image and thematically appropriate, furthermore I don't think it's a big enough issue to be a problem. I mena if they had a higher limit on power points or learned a lot of augments up fornt there might be an issue, but with 6 points max (barring overchannel) I don't think it'll be too much of a problem.
rampant wrote:
rampant wrote:
Dwarfslayer wrote:
shintashi wrote:
For me doing psi right is all about making it feel alien and non-magical. In other words, I don't want dispel magic or anti-magic to function against it. If the 5e version feels and works like magic I won't be interested.
So how do you balance all that? Ultimately you're left with either a character that's underpowered in the first example or overpowered in the second. You can decide that stealth-casting isn't a huge deal and it's basically more or less a minor flavor ability and that psions should be about on par with wizards and clerics. Or you can decide that stealth-casting has some major benefits and that psions need to have weaker powers
For me doing psi right is all about making it feel alien and non-magical. In other words, I don't want dispel magic or anti-magic to function against it. If the 5e version feels and works like magic I won't be interested.
On Enworld, it sounds like Mike Mearls and Co are hard at work on psychics or at least thinking about it:
"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.
One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2661-Mike-Mearls-on-D-D-Psionics#.VXdGvflViko#ixzz3cbAtEC7b
I am not sure how all of that would work. No telepathy (either name or power) because of the detect thoughts spell (and telepathy is pseudoscience name)? No TK, because Telekeneis (the spell) and cantapault (which I'm pretty sure I just spelled wrong). I am assuming they aren't going to errata out all the "psychic" like magic spells (as that is tail wagging the dog and the complaining would be epic even by D&D standards), and I don't see many psychic abilities that aren't covered by exisiting spells......
Interesting how he gets all G.O.O.-y ("unsettling"), but then steps aside (no pacts). Almost a 4e "psychics is from the Far Realm" feel.
I suspect Luis is going to be heartbroken about the old one=vestige bit....
Thus why my model is to use a small number of talents that can be modified with augments by spending power points, and I'm working on a way for them to burn HD to do the really crazy stuff.
Mechatarrasque wrote:
I think telepathy would still be around, and it might work similarly to detect thoughts, but what Mearls meant is that you would never see this sort of thing that you see in the 3.5 EPH:
Detect Thoughts (Telepathy) - as detect thoughts, except as noted here
You see that a lot in the EPH and it's terrible. Instead, you'd see something like
Power header - power description, etc
You detect the thoughts of a target creature, (mechanics)!
It might have the same effect as magic in some cases, but it's still distinctly different from the spell, so it doesn't duplicate it.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Vestiges, plural, is too big for asub-class anyway, unless you make them really small bonuses. A single vestige, or maybe two closely related ones on the other hand are great ideas for sub-classes.
Mechatarrasque wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
Making psionics different isn't a matter of not overlapping spells. Unfortunately Magic has already been given the whole house and a summer home in Guam. Psionics needs to be used differently such as in the talent/augment model I posted yes it reates fireball, searing ray, and a dozen other fire spells or more. However you're doing it differently, you're refining your control and power over flame as an ability so you can easily use it to cover a broad range of situations instead of the waya spell caster masters fire, by learning dozens of wrote spells independently of one another. Also this crap about magic-psionic transparency is a side show. Dispells and such are pretty much going to have to work on each other. The difference Being that against psionics dispells are largely a delay tactic since re-establishing the effect is only going to cost an action and maybe some power points. As for permananet-dead zones, they were a stupid idea to begin with.
I think the best implemetation would be a third type of magic to compliment pact magic and spellcasting. It could share a lot of the terminology of slots, spell lists, and spells known & prepared, but with a very different implementation than the other two. If they fit the model, there's no reason to change the terminology just for the sake of change.
Although some of the spells could be shared with other classes, most of them would be psionic only.
I liked the 4E model of psionics, giving psionicists a set of at-will abilities that they can enhance with some kind of consumable resource (not unlike Ki points).
Keeping the same terminology (slots, spells, known & prepared) also gives a lot of interesting options for multiclassing.
Mearls' concern over using the same terminology worries me. I have no problem using the same terms, in reference to the powers and their description; it is the method of their employment and their story connection that I feel is important.
For instance, Telepathy (the psionic ability) has almost nothing in common with the Detect Thoughts spell. A more apt comparison would be to the ESP psionic ability..
* I suggest to recover the mental combat using "three tagents" (three steps) for mental contact, the psionic fight from 2 AD&D. Do you remember it? (Mind blank, mind shield, mental barrier, intellect fortress, tower of iron will, mind thrust, ego whip, Id insinuation, psychic crush, and psionic blast.)....
* Psionic is from within power, without spell components. Psions doesn´t need to recite, any material componente or special gestures. Nobody could notice a little action of psicoportation to send poison to the noble's wine cup.
I imagine psionic manifesters like the mutants from X-Men comics.
----
I love the vestige pact magic. There is a great potential to create stories, but pact magic isn´t linked to psionic at all.... but some vestige could give some psionic power to the binder.
RCanine wrote:
Mind Over Matter - this lets the Psychic use their "third hand" to produce action at a distance.
Mind Over Body - the power of the mind to control the body, including "Biofeedback" and related powers.
Sight Beyond Sight - Seeing or Sensing things far away. Can also be called Clairvoyance, Second Sight, or Remote Viewing.
Sixth Sense - or using the 'third eye'.
Yeah, there's some terms that exist that aren't so "sciency", but it's also true that the "science sounding" terms are just Greek expressions stuck together. Psyche + Kinesis, Tele + Pathos, Tele + Kinesis, Pyr + Kinesis, etc.
Frankly, they should keep some of the stock terms in play. Wizards are emulating Psionicists when they have spells that sound like psionics, not the other way around. Wizards predate Telekinesis, but the Term is 100% psychic. Actually, most of the "wizard" stuff you think about in movies is actually just Psionic tropes. Take out the Firestarter/Akira stuff and Magic is way weirder and probably a lot less interesting for many.
Forcefields, Auras, Setting People on Fire, and Moving Objects with a Thought? Reading the Thoughts of Others? Meh. We have been down this road back before 5e core books were published. Let's focus on what can happen with current rules in place.
First, we need boundaries. A 20th level Psion with good stats should be able to do the following in areas they excel at:
- Present a Total Save DC of 21 for things like Mind Reading/Control, TK Hold, etc. (8 + 5 stat mod + 6 proficiency bonus + 2 Domain bonus).
- Armor produced via Natural Armor powers should be at least 19, possibly as high as 21+ with something more temporary like a Forcefield
- Attack with not much better than a +14 to hit, from things like Body Weapon; A 20th level Body weapon might be considered equivalent to a +3 supernatural weapon for example, then added to a +5 strength bonus and a +6 proficiency modifier, yields +14.
- Damage from an energy area effect attack should be capped at around 70-80 save for half for common attacks, and maybe a bit less or more for specialized and exotic attacks. Common energy attacks would include Fire (pyro-k), Cold (cryo-k), Lightning (electro-k). Two frequent attack forms used by psychics include Force (tele-k, Disintegrate), Mental (Mind Blast, Psychic Blade).
- A Pyrokineticist would have damage values and powers resembling a Cleric of Light, with less light effects and more custom Fire effects. A Pyro specialist should be able to do a bit more damage with their fire effects than a generic wizard, so Meteor Swarm for example which does about 140 damage at 20th level, tells us a Pyrokineticist might do 145-150 instead, such as adding their Stat modifier.
- A psionicist should always be 'trying' in order to keep up with damage/range/aoe/durations of similar level characters, and they should be 'trying really hard' to surpass others in areas where the psionicist is specialized. In other words, generating something as tough as wall of force, or as powerful as meteor swarm should be taxing for the psionicist
A psionicist should be able to play with the concept of Concentrations, Full Round Action Concentration, Being easy to hit while concentrating (advantage), being at disadvantage to make some sort of attack roll/check to use a more powerful version of their power, and so on. Sample penalties and effects are like the various feats where you take a penalty -5 to hit to get a +10 to damage, for example.
Psionicists shouldn't have static range. They should have a range increment table from Touch to Line of Sight.
Area effects should be incremented similar to Monster Sizes. Their Growth for fiddling with their powers should mirror the growth of Druid Shapeshifting options.
shintashi wrote:
Hell no lewis, a wonky overly complex new method of combat is exactly what psionics doesn't need. I remember that crap from the initial 3e release of psionics. Horrible idea, impossible ot balance, slows the game right down.
Shintashi I can't help but feel like you're overly focused on nitty gritty numbers that while important don't really help maintain psionics as being distinct from magic. Why does their need to be a domain bonus?
The +3 enhanced body I can sort of see as a counter to magic weapon.
MechaPilot wrote:
shintashi wrote:
rampant wrote:
Ok see that right there is why i think you guys really need to come at it form a structural stand point first. Did you see my pyro sampler? Ones domain of specializaion could well be in constant flux. Trying to treat psionic powers like spells with schools and permanent specializations is just silly. You could develop telepathy first then move to specialize in pyrokenises without ever picking up telekinesis or electrokinesis.
Also Psychoportation is not the punching discipline, that's metabolism, or the 0-point telekinetic techniques.
Dwarfslayer wrote:
rampant wrote:
Dwarfslayer wrote:
shintashi wrote:
I suggest all of the above:
I. Stealth Casting. Yes, of course. With possible penalties at low levels, and penalties used to get advantages at high levels.
II. Nova Caster. Absolutely what i had in mind when citing that 145-150 damage cap compared to Meteor Swarm.
III. Versatility: Range, Duration, AOE, Damage/Intensity, and Form should all be Malleable. This would actually be the key feature of the Psionicist.
IV. One Trick Pony: To a degree, like Cleric Domains with far fewer more versatile super powers. This is part of their balance.
V. Not Magic: Of course. Has no real impact on Balance. I've run into Magic Resistance as a problem 0 times. 5e isn't 2e or 3e. MR is tame. Not to mention psychic damage resistance is already in play.
Thought Shield
Starting at 10th level, your thoughts can’t be read by telepathy or other means unless you allow it. You also have resistance to psychic damage, and whenever a creature deals psychic damage to you, that creature takes the same amount of damage that you do.
dmgorgon wrote:
* The return of the mental combat from 2nd edition ought to be simple. Maybe only three confrotations checks and after the true mental attacks.
* Maybe the psionic first class to be playtested could be ardent, like a cleric variant. They is a great potential to create stories about clonflicts and love-hate relations with the clerics, favored souls and another divine spellcasters.
* What do you think about a soulknife with the maneuvers and poses from "Tome of Battle: book of nine swords"'
* Astral contructs can be used to explore duegeons fulls of traps, can´t they?
* Psions can wear heavy armours, can´t they? It is important if a player wants to create a fighter/psioni hybrid.
* I say it again, the fraals (classic little gray men) and the blue goblin subrace ought to be PC races.
* I have a crazy idea about the wilder like a class what mixture psionic and incarnum soulmelds, with a background about innate powers, like mutants from X-Men comics. (I like to test new things).
I think an X-Men Mutant reinterpretation of Psychometabolism, and Psionics in General, AS WILD TALENTS, is a brilliant move. The Trick is how to set it up mechanically.
Method 1. it's a class, a one hit wonder with few deviations from the core powers. Such powers might themselves grow. This could go badly if there are a lot of suck powers.
Method 2. It's a BACKGROUND you can take, it comes with flaws (X Men definitely had the flaw of being Mutant. It was like a mix of every politically opressed group at the same time from the Inquisition to the '60s to modern times).
Method 3. it's a FEAT you can buy, and then you roll on the table or collaborate with your DM to pick one.
Mental Combat has always been messier than it needed to be. But it brings to mind one of the unique features of psionics I suggested before: Multiple concentrations at the same time. Harbingers are thought generated Magic Items the psionicist equips, wears, or uses.
Harbingers also include Terrain/Places. Magical items are a strong parallel, but basically, something like a Wizard's Magical Hut, or Enchanted Maze, is just another "magic item" equipped by the Psionicist.
places are telepathic defenses, utilities, or attacks that represent either multiple targets, massive power, or massive time. A Maze for example represents a greater duration for an individual to escape or enter. A giant castle might represent massive defenses. Typically, a giant region is mentally capable of pooling multiple minds together under the same attack, like a fireball or spike growth. Therefore, places should be higher level than most of the other constructs.
A psionic power shouldn't just be attack or defend. It can also be utility. Utility can be things like remembering something forgotten, solving a puzzle, or even unlocking new psionic powers. A typical psionic power should be roughly equal to 1 feat for training purposes, although a Power Tree can be set up so that multiple increasingly difficult training sessions are required in order to achieve the unlocking (i.e. training) of extremely powerful abilities.
For example, Disintegrate should not be unlocked with a single attempt/training event unless the person already has the prerequisite steps/stats.
Wild talents could be a subclass. But some playerws will want to play different types of "mutants" a giant feral beast and another a walking flamethrower or rays guns.
* A little of psionic power could be enough to breack a machine, to block a cannon with a piece of ectoplam (like the one used to create astral constructs) or to cute ropes of bows and crossbows. With psicoportation a blue goblin could "jump" to the ogre's neck to stab with a poisonous knive, or to send a bomb, or a stone with a magic rune to summon monsters.
* Could the power astral construct to be used to create an exosuit armour?
rampant wrote:
That makes no sense for any of the psions except the telepaths and empaths, That's part of the problem really is the psionic combat forced everyone to play telepaths basically.
rampant wrote:
One of the things that psionics has always overlooked in D&D that I feel should be part of psionics is "the psychic." Now I don't mean telepathy, because that's been present. I mean the spiritualist who sees and communes with the dead, and who uses crystal balls, tarot cards, tea leaves, palmistry, or other means to read the future.
That's called a Medium, and is pretty much in the magic camp.
Unless you wanna go with the Esper theory, and even then communion with the dead is a tricky one because you have to have the ability to connect over temporal gaps and that's a right pain, just getting reception is a right trick.
Also I find psionic combat as a seperate system and set of actions to be both innappropriate for most characters that are not telepathic or empathic, and simply too much of ahassle to deal with for those that are. Psionic characters should be able to use their powers in combat, this is true. They should not however need a whole new combat system tacked onto the game to do so.
rampant wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
the concept of attack modes/defense modes is good.
the very spell-like specific aspect in the way they worked was not a good idea.
Instead, the attack/defense/utility modes (added a third category there, didn't I?) need to operate like Shadow Monsters, Demi-Shadow Magic, and Permanent Illusion. They need more refinement than Wish, but far less specifics than say, Burning Hands. Otherwise you end up with 40 different subpowers like in Dark Sun harbingers, full of monsters we don't recognize and struggle to pronounce.
What should be universal except for wild talents is at least one defense mode. If a psionicist has ever been attacked mentally or fears being attacked mentally, they might like to develop counter attacks, even if the counter is nothing more than mentally screaming really loud or repeating irritating music or images your attacker might find disturbing.
Telepathic Wild Talents would also have defenses and offenses, but a natural shapeshifter with no training might not have a clue they need to defend their minds from other mentalists. That's what I'm seeing. It has to make sense in terms of storyline. You basically get tokens that say "this is what I was doing with my time while the wizard was learning magic missile and the thief was learning to backstab".
People who dump their token into multiple mental defenses or attacks (or utilities) aren't going to have the token to dump into something like "higher higher burning fire" or "levitating a room full of books at the same time and other party favors".
I love Psionics, but, as it has so far, never been included in a PHB 1 (the core), it will always be the tacked on, redheaded stepchild of D&D.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Siphersh wrote:
The game already abstracts the mental conflict via mental ability score saves why do we need to complicate that? I can certainly understand psions and such learning powers that punish people seeking to establish mental contact but you don't need a whole sub-system for that, you can do that with normal abilities.
I am inclined to agree with rampart. My recollection was that psychic combat was a big turnoff for everyone who wasn't playing a psychic (and even a lot of DM's who were) back in the day. Something like a skill challenge might work better, where the psychic is holding the psychic monster (by making saves*) leaving the rest of the party free to stab or blast it (and the bad guy can make nonpsychic magic or physcial attacks against the PC's), and then as long as the devs avoid making low-to-mid level psychic monsters that only exist on the astral plane (but can zap PC's on the material plane), and all will be well.
* fail a save, take X damage and the bad guy can psychically attack one other PC (maybe even make him/her make an attack on another PC), fail two saves, take 2X damage and the bad guy can psychically attack one other PC (definitely do the control thing here). Fail 3 saves and the connection is broken (PC is stunned), and the bad guy is free to psychically attack any PC.
Brock_Landers wrote:
rampant wrote:
You're concerned about the long term stuff? Like Mind seed or Chigurry?
Again we don't need an extra HP total for that. Mind-seed simply needs to be ritualized, i.e. given a long arese manifesting time and you can use it on unconscious people you've already beaten. Similar for a perma-thrall. These aren't things you get in the heat of combat. Furthermore we can give the telepaths the ability to do non-lethal damage and use downed foes as puppets.
shintashi wrote:
rampant wrote:
Maybe the mental combat could be used by no-psions, for example by magic mesmerist.
On the other hand, the mental combat is one vs one. Concentration to controll victim's mind is more difficult if enemies are attacking you.
* Now I am thinking about illithind spies, with total human appearance. The prestige classe "Flayerspawn psychic" from the Complete Psionic suggested me ideas about the psionic race, the elans, like the sleeping agents of the illithids.
What if illithid could create the aberration version of the "majini zombi" from "Resident Evil: Afterlife" movie'
A way to add psionic powers could be with symbionts, a mixture of living magic item and monster ally
What is the difference between a psiforged (psionic warforged) and a sharndmind?
Shin, there is already a non-lethal damage system in 5e that requires no extra HP. Melee attacks automatically allow the option of doing non-lethal damage on the last hit and merely knocking the fool unconscious. Simply allow telepaths the same freedom wiuth their powers.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
nonlethal battering.. hmnn.. I just disagree with the idea that a pea brain coward is protected from psionics because they have a wall of hit points for being something like a Hill Giant or Dinosaur... while at the same time a Strong willed but low hit dice character like a Wizard or even an Enchantress themed sorcerer gets pasted like a Scanners' (exploding head) victim.
Lots of psionic tv shows and novels involve psionic combat with comotose patients, so I think the Warlock variant of "unconscious = sock puppet mind control" (create thrall, p110) should be an exception to the rule, rather than a guidebook on high powered Telepaths.
Mind Crafting: A Different Approach
Ok, so here's a different approach. The psionicist is a dude in a Toga/Clothes/Kensai outfit, just standing there, with no equipment. Like the Colonel Sanders commercial without the Bucket of Chicken. The psionicist then has "gear", composed of tools and equipment, but those tools and equipment are all in his head.
Like, when you have a hammer, you use it to smash a nail into a block of wood, but the Telekinetic or someone with Mind Over Body would just push the nail in, either with enhanced finger strength, or telekinetically. A Shield, and Armor, is a lot like the purpose of a Forcefield, or Iron Skin techniques. You don't need a scuba diving tank if you can breath water, or simply go without breathing for several minutes at a time.
You don't need climbing rope if you can levitate, or climb up/down a cliff like a Spider or Kungfu Action hero. Your Darksun Psionicist might not need a full water skin at start, because they can use that "Concentrate Water" power to get whatever water they need, or some kind of "Locate Water" power to act like a divining rod. Many psionicists wont need to carry food or bed rolls on a journey, because they can use Mind over Body to go without food/drink, or even sleep for days, even weeks at a time.
Because the Psionicist is using powers instead of gear, it is important that maintenance costs are low, and have generally longer duration units, and also important that multiple "Tools/Equipment" are able to be active at one time. We might use a flashlight or Torch to light up a room while working on a leaky roof in a rain storm, but the psionicist might have to be able to use Night Vision while using Telekinesis or Temporary super strength to make the repairs.
So in D&D, when you want to make something, like turning a dead dragon into dragon armor, you have to have a proficiency related to a tool kit for crafting that armor. You also need time blocks much larger than 1 round, or even 1 hour. You are basically doing several steps of actions to achieve the goal. You are crafting.
Telepathic manipulation, as opposed to short term surface thought/impulse control, can be more like Crafting. It can be something you sculpt and work with, with pros and cons and effects and bonuses or whatever, but the central idea is it takes a lot longer. In fact, Psychic Surgery and associated powers could be set up more like Magic Item crafting, but instead of special components, you need special power sets, and more time.
Since people rarely create magic items, but still do, this level of Mental Manipulation could occupy the same sort of "down time" space with extended DM-esque rules, level requirements, etc. One of the reasons this could be beneficial outside of simply "charm monster" level functionality, is that the same techniques for sculpting minds can be used to unlock wild talents, or modify/create powers. So following the magic item framework puts the design into better perspective of balance. Additionally, a completely warped mind doesn't require concentration to maintain - they basically become a henchmen with their own initiative, so detailing what kind of personality traits, loyalties, likes, etc. might be useful for the DM.
The point of the non-lethal telepathic attacks wa smerely to make long term psychic modificiation practical, their Hp doens't protect them form Perma thrall or Permanent memory editing it simply makes it harder for them to be held down for the process. You don't do delicate mental reorganizations in the middle fo a gorram fight.