I have been reading my Starter Set Rulebook, and all the rules look great so far. It looks like the rules were designed to keep combat flowing while still giving the player many tactical options. When the game starts feeling like a video game is when RPG's break down, and to me this breaks down with the "Long Rest" rules.
The recovery of the Short Rest, Hit Dice was probably where it should have stopped? Recovering full HP from simply resting seems a little ridiculous to me. While I can appreciate that hit points do not necessarity equate to just wounds, some of the damage taken should. It seems a little too much like a video game, when my character who has lost 99% of their Hit Points, can just "sleep it off". This full recovery is made even without the need of a Medicine roll or any magical healing assistance!
On the plus side, this is the only "silly" thing I have read yet. I really like the rest of the ruleset, but I am extremely disappointed with this 1 rule. Even though the game setting is in a "magical fantasy" world, I still like for there to be some believability/structure (yes, I am trying to avoid saying "realism") in the rules.
Well, at least it looks like they got everthing else right 
OrcLord wrote:
OrcLord wrote:
Because it makes writing adventure modules easier, when they know how long it'll take for a party to recover - and any DM who uses another system will have to patch up any repurcussions that might otherwise have in the module.
For example, one party has no healers and might take weeks to recover with 1 HP or whatever a day, screwing up a time sensitive quest, while another party doing the same mission might be healed in just a day or two. How do you manage both?
One method I used during the playtest, was to roll your Max HD (no con bonus) and that was how much you healed overnight. For the most part, it still kept everyone at/near full health at the start of the day, but a lot of damage from the day before or a really bad roll could leave you well short. It wasn't an official option, but my player's liked it because it left a level of randomness to it.
Speaking as a player in Mines of Phandelver, I find the rule actually good in play.
Mind you I DMed during the playtest and generally I'm in favor of grittier games (my preferred method is simply HD recovery per long rest) but having played 5e with a good DM we hardly thought about it, the adventure was still exciting and a bit deadly (oh those pit traps! )
Warder
I will run it standerd at first to test it(give it a couple of months) if I think its too much Ill swith it too one HP per lvl for long rest in the wilds and full HP in towns or cities.
The way I handled it was circumstance of location. If you long-rested in a tavern or inn or at a fairly large and guarded encampment, then you were fine.
However, if you decided to take a long rest in a cave, in the middle of a forest, in an old castle or whatever, then I would roll to see if they get ambushed. If they didn't, they would get their whole HP back. If they didn't, they would recover half their HP (unless their racial ability only requires them 4 hours sleep during a long rest, they would get half HP), and they would have to fight off whoever was attacking them. They would get some EXP and loot perhaps, but then they would have to risk taking another long rest, continue with recovering only half their max HP, or having waisted 4 hours of rest because whatever HP they recovered they had just lost in the encounter.
OrcLord wrote:
Just change what a long rest actually entails.
You want it long? A long rest is a week in town. *poof* That's what a long rest is for you.
Shiroiken wrote:
Yes, I also think it's ridiculous. It makes healing magic less magical and appreciated. I was hoping for more of a compromise in the default ruleset but the designers picked a very extreme set of rules for healing.
You only get half your maximum Hit Dice back on a long rest which means you potentially have less resources to expend the following day. If my 2-HD character goes to bed with no HD remaining, I do get max HP when I wake up, but only 1 HD. Now I can only spend the 1 HD throughout the next day. You could say whatever the character's lacking in HD represents their wounds, if that's your kink.
I dislike the "idea" of always healing to full every night, but mechanically I have no problem with it. Were I to revise it, I'd probably replace it with one free hit dice healing in addition to recovering half of your hit dice. But I probably won't revise it unless it becomes problematic.
You could also take a page from Fate and say that if you went below half hit points at any point during the previous day and didn't receive any magical healing, you have disadvantage on certain physical actions the next day due to discomfort from your minor injuries.
Noon wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
iserith wrote:
Changing the rate of overnight healing is simple, and doesn't require you to "rebalance" anything.
Already in this small thread alone there have been several alternate suggestions:
1) Roll max HD (no Con bonus) to see how many HP you recovered overnight.
2) 1 HP/level recovered resting in the wild, full HP resting in a city.
3) Chance of ambush when resting in the wild results in regaining only half HP.
4) Make Long Rest be a week.
5) Bonus Hit Die used to heal when you take a long rest.
The only effect it has on the game is to increase the time required to regain all your HP (unless you have enough magical healing). So it means the PCs will need to be a bit more cautious on Day 2 (unless they have time to rest up back to full HP), and it gets more and more dangerous with each passing day. It also makes magical healers practically required, and almost forces them to save all or most of their spells for healing.
The system works surprisingly well in play. Any slower natural healing and you will run into PCs camping out for a few days after every fight. I suggest you play the game as is before making any changes or complaints.
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
HP needs to be split between Health and Combat Fatigue. Elaboration on that statment is futile and Healing/HP threads often go down in flames.
Next, the developers add in a real healing method for HP.
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
Also the healing rules are there for smaller parties. If you a 2-3 adventure party not everyone wants to run a Cleric. If the DMG guide does what the playtest packet does then there will be several variations to make it tougher to heal and easier. I like the default as it makes you think about your short rest HD more. So under a timed adventure it can get hairy.
I went with 0 HP recovery during a long rest, and 1/2 your hit dice. Not because I think that's "more realistic", but because it suited the campaign style I wanted. I wanted to run a campaign where what you did today influenced what shape you are in tomorrow, and where the question of "Do we adventure today or hole up and hope our enemies aren't on the move?' was asked.
i'm still mulling over whether I am going to have to restrict the Fighters "Second wind" to once per long rest, so it doesn't throw that off.
The game is designed around the adventuring day. I don't like that, but that's how it is and that's what the system needs to accomodate. Therefore, same as daily spells recover on a 24h cycle, so HP and HD recovery has to happen on the same cycle.
Having a different pace of recovery across resources would unbalance the game, which may be ok for some, but shouldn't be the default assumption of the system.
Noon wrote:
I am going to use the HD average as the recovery number. For example, a 3th level fighter with 3HD would recover 5.5 x 3 =16 HP (rounded down). So, if he was barely wounded the first day, he would be back to full. However, if he was badly hurt, he would still be feeling it the next day without additonal magical healing. However, I expect to see something similar in DMG.
P.S. A really clever solution is to make a short rest 8 hours and a long rest 5 days.
FFSAA wrote:
I'm sure by the 6th edition we'll have Regeneration: Constitution Modifier/turn while in combat and Con Score/turn while out of combat.
Wel we could speculate on alternative HP system they will have in the DMG.
I will have to look trough al the archives and vids.
Busi remember Mike Mearls talking about a wounds and vitality system, party based on starwars d20.
But vitality would be HP damage, and wounds would be reduction in Max HP.
And from the basic document we know it takes at least 3 days to remove a reduction in max HP without magic.
But it also sais it alouws you to remove 1 effect that reduces your max HP sygesting there might be effects that stack.
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Sure is slippery slope fallacy in here.
Azzy1974 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Warning: spoilers ahead:
Though we just fought our way through the goblins ambush, the goblin watchmen in the brambles, and killled the wolves, thus far hit die healing has been very useful. I am playing the dwarven Cleric in our party, and man am I glad the group has h.d. healing and that the fighter has second wind. I am currently at one spell slot after a 3 encounter day. My party is laid out in the tunnels river wash outside the cave after being swept down with the current. Battered and bruised it's time for short rest.
I am anxious to see how this plays out at mid to high level. I am also not adversly against changing this mechanic to adjust to other playstyles when need be.
I will say this much: I am having fun! I'm playing the Cleric remember? And it's fun. 
The only reason I am dubious of what they are going to do in the DMG is because they wrongly believe the central issue is rate of healing. The central issue is non-magical healing. Plenty of people can't stand non-magical healing but want a fast rate. Other people want a slow rate of healing and don't care about non-magical healing. They are not connected necessarily. Now having said that the trend might be that those wanting slow recovery also want to avoid non-magical healing but it's hardly guaranteed.
I'm definitely never going to have non-magical healing beyond a slow rate that equates to natural healing. I could give or take some on how much healing exists overall. At low levels I tend to view it as more limited but at higher levels I consider it more available.
Lawolf wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
ROFL Kitsune
You might be a redneck cleric if you pray to your God to heal your wounds and all you get is some Duct Tape.
Emerikol. wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
Thalion94518 wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
RustedKitsune wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Emerikol, what's keeping you from removing hit dice healing altogether? I mean, it'll affect everyone equally. The way I figure it is if something is going to affect everyone fairly equally, I have no problem changing it at all.
As far as Second Wind, do you have a problem with Temp Hit points? Call it that. If not, give the fighter class something else at 1st level. Maybe proficiency in all saves or double proficiency in his two saves.
I mean, it's your game. Go ahead and do what you feel is best.
That's what I LOVE about this edition. It just appears so flexible. I have absolutely NO intention of running it RAW. My game is going to reflect the way I want my game to run... the way *I* beleive DnD should be played. As long as my players and I are having fun, I don't care what anyone else does at their table.
Heck, I don't like the save system. I prefer the old school method in which a character's chance to save gets better as he gets more experienced. I'll probably do something like make save DCs fixed. Will my MU's and clerics like it? I don't know. I'll find out. Heck, if Save or Suck/Die spells get increasingly easier to save against, maybe it'll change the way MU's approach spell preparation. And for me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If other people don't like it, that's fine. I don't expect to have WOTC design my perfect system. They gave me the framework, and I'll do it myself because my perfect system isn't going to be yours or Polaris's or anybody elses. And that's okay too.
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
OrcLord wrote:
...and the slow descent into madness begins again.
DemoMonkey wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
OrcLord wrote:
RustedKitsune wrote:
I was going to suggest having potions of healing that only work overnight.
But the important thing is to realise that this is a mechanic that's there to help make the game work as a game.
People who try to just cram realism into it will once again be sabotaging it working as a game (as a game as opposed to a chore)
Archon007 wrote:
emwasick wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
Someone call the Paramedics to deal with this train wreck thread. Just..wow.. Well bye bye... "puts on hat.. door slams". 
For me immersion and believability are the most important aspects of any roleplaying game. Ten times more important than balance or ease of play. So I judge by that ruler.
Assuming wotc at least makes some show of respect in the DMG for many of their former players on the issue of non magical healing then I'll gladly houserule whatever I need. If they don't then my beef is with wotc and I'll be boycotting their game but not because I'm incapable of houseruling it. I'm not going to be treated badly and buy from that company. That goes for most any business I deal with. Pizza Hut was getting 60 bucks minimum a month from me until they treated me bad. Now for several months they've got nothing. Sprint really treated me bad ten years ago. Now 25k later I'm still with someone else.
I think there are enough fans of D&D that hate non magical healing for them to be given an option in the ghetto at least. If we can't even make the ghetto then I'm done with them.
Emerikol. wrote:
Thalion94518 wrote:
One way to play 5th without nonmagical healing is to give clerics bonus spells ala 3rd but only let them use them for healing.
As I intend to run a gritty game, but want low level characters to be survivable enough to enjoy later adventures, my houserule will be as follows;
HEALING DICE
A character has a number of Healing Dice available for restoring hit points whilst resting. These are of the same type as their character's Hit Dice, and equal in number to their Profficiency Bonus.
Note: Use of the Fighter's ability Second Wind expends 1 Healing Dice.
SHORT REST
A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds with a Healer's Kit or equivalent.
A character can spend one or more of their available Healing Dice at the end of a short rest, up to the character's maximum. For each Healing Dice spent in this way, the player regains hit points equal to the roll plus the character's Constitution modifier. The player can decide to spend an additional Healing Dice after each roll until they reach their maximum hit points at which point no further rolls are possible. Hit points rolled in excess of the character's hit point maximum are lost.
A character must have at least 1 hit point and access to a Healer's Kit at the start of the Short Rest to gain its full benefits. Without access to a Healer's Kit, a Short Rest does not restore any hit points.
A character regains their Healing Dice upon finishing a long rest, as explained below.
LONG REST
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character tends to wounds with a Healer's Kit, sleeps or performs light activity; reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity - at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity - the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.
At the end of a long rest having had access to a Healer's Kit, a character regains hit points equal to the maximum total possible from rolling all of their Healing Dice. The character also regains all of their spent Healing Dice. Without access to a Healer's Kit, a Long Rest restores only hit points equal to the character's level plus Constitution bonus and half of the character's maximum Healing Dice.
A character can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24 hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the Long Rest to gain its benefits.
This will mean that low level characters tend to bounce back better than high level characters, counterbalancing the vulnerability issue with them at low levels. However, without having access to magical healing and/or someone with the Healer Feat, and especially if they have no Healer's Kit, characters are going to suffer - which is as it should be in my opinion.
Lawolf wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
A part of the problem is that there's a lot of prior edition weight behind the words "hit points" in regards to their meaning. In 5e default we have hit points as a fast recovery stat and hit dice as our slow recovery stat. To me that suggests hit points aren't a wound mechanic so much as a person's ability to absord shock. The hit dice do a better job representing the actual wounds and slow healing trauma a player has to recover from.
The "realism" of hit dice/hit points in 5e:
In a boxing match the boxers soak hit points when they box it out. When a round ends they go to their corners and spend hit dice to recover HP lost the prior round. They go into each round slightly refreshed but eventually they either run out of stamina(hit dice) or take enough of a hit in 1 round to KO them(hit points).
In the above mechanics like second wind make a lot more sense. The fighter isn't recovering from wounds, he's just recovering from the shock portion of taking blows from the fight.
For a more grittier campaign I'd probably leave hit points alone and restrict the HD recovery. One option might be to require HD spending to also associate a wound with the hit dice spent. This is sort of like how in Fate people can spend consequences to soak stress. In a gritty game the hit dice might only recover after the wound was healed:
Jane is in a fight, takes an arrow in the leg for 5hp but isn't slowed down by it(adrenalline is a hell of a drug). After the fight she spends a HD to recover the 5hp, removes the arrow and has a limp for a couple days. After the limp goes away she regains the HD.
You could probably even simulate permanent injuries by allowing players to spend bonus HD or HD while dying: Rogue goes down and would normally be dead, but the GM allows him to spend 2 HD for a permanent scar on his face.
Anyway, I think there's a lot of flexibility in 5e.
Lawolf wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
I watched part 2 of the Starter set adventure being played by the wizards of the coast guys, and I'd have to say seeing it play out this way makes me really doubt the healing is too strong in 5e. By the end of part 1 the cleric was down to one healing spell, then knocked unconcious and the big weapon fighter was down some hp, maybe the archer fighter too. Start part 2, the party had to hide in the bushes for an hour or two so the cleric could regain 1 hp, then she healed herself with her last healing spell. The big weapon fighter used his second wind, but took enough damage by the end of the session that he is now currently unconcious and the players hid him as they continued deeper into the cave. He'll wake up in 1d4 hours after everything is already taken care of, unless he is found and killed by the enemy.
Total game time has been about 3hrs, with 3-5 encounters depending on how you rank it, and they are pretty much all out of healing with at least 50% of the cave left to go, including what might end up being a large boss fight against a group of goblins.
This seems to tell me that the healing is rough enough already at level 1-2, any "grittier" and these players would be completely without hope instead of just in deep deep trouble
Dracones wrote:
Chaosmancer wrote:
Ode to the last offensive spell I had: sacred flame- aka "sacred spam".
So, I'm playing the dwarf cleric and we are fighting our way through the goblin caves in the first adventure from the starter set when I realise: I have to constantly play heal bot to keep the wizard up and running. He is folding like a lawn chair even when trying to play it cool.. Even with short rest my primary job is battery charger. My true great accomplishment tonight was kiling the large wolf with the war hammer in the final encounter after it ran up and CuJo'ed my sons mage after a bit oh' Magic Missle action on his part. lol.
My one offensive capability ( the one I get to use because we are getting our asses handed to us on an encounter by encounter basis) sacred spam. All night long baybay.. Got a problem? Use sacred spam. Those Goblins getting you down? Try sacred spam, stupid human fighter can't see in the dark, send him ahead and pull out your plasma rifle & lay down some good ole' sacred spam. Out of spells = sacred spam, fighter can't get blessed because you burned up your healing on that sissy elf mage? Sacred spam. Thank "gobs" for frigging cantrips. 
I will tell you a b.a.f. here folks: without short and Long rest healing and the fighters second wind ability my dwarven head would be in a skull pile.
Healing word- gone, Cure wounds,-gone = slots: gone. I was "Cantrippin' the light fantastic" and "swinging away" like one of the Bad news bears. 
OrcLord wrote:
Really it all comes down to game balance and fun.
More or less, the less hit points you have, the more likely you are to get knocked out or KOed, and the harder it is to balance encounters. If you can assume that players start all encounters/adventures with full hit points, then it makes balancing them a lot easier. And frankly, in a world full of healing magic and healing potions, it isn't even all that unreasonable to assume that you can be healed up to max; you may still be a bit "beat up" or whatever (depending on what your hit point damage even means - it is fairly amorphours) but you're still at full as far as the game mechanics are concerned.
Realistically, it takes weeks to recover from a stab wound, if not months. Obviously, that's right out for most games.
Emerikol. wrote:
Brightmantle wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
I was trying to be funny.
I don't think that team work is the issue. The players are all playing their classic positions and marching order is constantly noted. We are playing on a grid. What tends to happen is ranged weapons "short bows" I believe, have just been pin cushioning him- the mage. The large wolf " Ripper?" is the only melee combat he has been involved with. I slew the wolf as the Cleric via a Hammer strike. With line of sight spells being a must he is going to be forced to be at risk. Even though he's in his place *role* in the safest place possible. Cover is mutual as you know. The point is: not the teamwork issue, not the recon issue, not the cover issue, not the spell choice issue, not his fault. Yes we know to protect the squishy's. Now make no mistake, I like the inherent game balance, (gritty) is my bag. I'm having a great time even though I'm playing healing battery. The problem as far as character class choice goes- is the folk hero fighter is not designed to *tank* which is making me do double duty in tight quarters.
What my above posts point was is this: Hit die healing and short and long rest as well as second wind did not unbalance my gaming experience, or turn this adventure to easy Mode.
For the record: I am pleased with the way the game plays and it's level of leathality at low levels.( reminds me of AD&D) I also like the mechanics for rest and healing from 4e.
My objections are purely feel. It doesn't feel right to heal up overnight. A slower rate while perhaps unrealistic feels okay. The reality is that no group I've ever ran has depended on natural healing. I could just say that all natural healing takes six months and my game wouldn't move or operate any differently.
So whatever the rate of healing that anyone things is best and I am somewhat flexible. I want it fairly slow at 1st level and a bit faster at higher level. I don't mind it being really fast at super high level. My primary concern is that the healing is non-magical. Otherwise I can no longer envision any combat result as a wound and that is not something I want to do.
Realize that immersion is important for me. D&D is the lousiest board game ever invented. If that is all I'm getting out of D&D then the investment time as DM and the schedule commitment are way to high on the opportunity cost scale. I play D&D because I want something more. Something deeper. It's not just a game like any other game. I'm actually willing to spend a hundred hours building a world and populating it. I don't do that to play settler's of catan. And I like board games. I just don't think D&D is a good board game.
Em, does setting a short rest to 8 hours and a long rest to 5 days work for you?
Why or why not?
Lawolf wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
I miss Healing Surges.
Although the fluff sucked (would it kill them to call it Vitality Points or Hit Dice instead), having a maximum amount of hit points that you can heal every 24 hours and the ability to heal without magic is absolutely essential to game balance, class balance, and making exploration more meaningful. I'm sad that 5E removed it, and hope there's a clear module for using it in the PHB or DMG.
Emerikol. wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
My question is this: Whenever do you have time to take a Long Rest whenever you want it?
If you're the DM, and letting your PCs take long rests frequently, you MAY* be doing it wrong. I would suggest springing a midnight-attack on them, or making them seriously consider leaving the dungeon to the safety of the outdoors before taking that long-rest. Or else include time-sensitive quests that they don't want to stop until they absolutely have to.
*MAY is used here because D&D is a mostly subjective game. But from a narrative stance, if the pressure is loosened, then you tend to lose your players, who feel like they're twiddling their thumbs. I would highly suggest to keep the pressure on by making the opportunity cost of sleeping high, whether it's in terms of time lost, or having to retrace dungeons that have been repopulated by new monsters, or by having to rest in safe areas to be secure against surprise – long rest lost – attacks.
Saelorn wrote:
I'm fine with short rest butwill make long rest mean you regain no hp (in practical terms your cleric can heal you to full hp anyway) and regain a number of HD equal to your proficiency bonus.
I will allow 2HD at 1st level though. It's not unbalancing at higher levels and makes the game more interesting at level 1.
Emerikol. wrote:
Marandahir wrote: