Ok, the term overpowered might be an exaggeration but...
Does anyone else feel that the benefits of a High Elf for a Fighter (or other warrior-type characters) are too good to pass for any other race?
Probable reasons:
1) +2 to Dex
Dex is probably the best stat for a Fighter as of now. Grab a finesse weapon + duelist style and you'll have high damage, high To Hit, high AC, high Initiative, high Dex saves (which you'll have to roll probablyt 10x more than a Str save), and there's quite a few good skills you can grab that are Dex-based (opposed to only 1 skill for Str).
2) Free cantrip
Cantrips are at-will spells in this edition. Pick something like Fire Bolt and now your Fighter has unlimited ranged attacks (which with level scaling can go up to 4d10 damage). Ranged attacks that don't need a weapon or ammo, and that you can use as many times you want with a snap of your fingers.
I don't know if I would go as far as calling High Elf + Fighter an overpowered combo, as it's not really "stacking" too much of the same stuff... but at the very least it feels to me that for a Fighter those benefits are undisputed by any other racial bonuses so far...
The Dwarf's +2 to Con is always nice, but I don't think to a martial character it remotely compares to gaining a magic spell which you can cast unlimited times. And the +2 to Str is good for Str-based fighters but, honestly, Dex is really looking like the undisputed best stat for Fighters right now...
I don't think the reason of the disparity here is actually in the race's bonuses... but in the fact that some cantrips are way too powerful for something that can be cast indefinitely, and also in the fact that Dex has accumulated too many benefits and has become sort of an overpowered stat for martial characters.
Any thoughts?
Its a sub-optimal choice. It will force you to focus on yet one more stat (Int). Meanwhile, casting a cantrip takes an action. You are casting it INSTEAD of making 2, 3, or 4 weapon attacks. You are better off either carrying strength based thrown weapons and staying in close range OR going Dex-fighter and using a bow as a backpack. Either option does way more damage than a cantrip, and the bow option has more range. Indeed, the +2 Dex competes with the cantrip. If you have a high Dex, you have no need for the cantrip. If you don't, and you go heavy armor, than the +2 Dex is a waste.
1) Dex is really good for fighters, and elves are really good for dex. I think it is going to take a few years and a few thousand various fighter characters before we find out for sure whether "dex fighter" or "strength fighter in heavy armor" edges ahead as the go-to fighter type.
2) Unless you are planning this elf to have an Intelligence score equal to the Dexterity you have established as good, then an attack cantrip isn't nearly as good as you think it is. Assuming you aren't cranking Intelligence to match the focused-upon Dexterity, the following are true:
- You will be more accurate with a longbow than fire bolt
- You have to track ammunition... but that is very cheap, and depletes pretty slowly considering how you can recover half your spent ammo if you have the time to pick up after a battle
- You won't do 4d10 damage per shot eventually, but you will be able to make 4 attacks - that's 4 chances to critical, 4 times adding your dexterity modifier to damage, and more chances to do at least some damage because you have 4 chances at that rather than 1.
- Bows have better range than any of the attack cantrips do
- If you are the champion sub-class of fighter, you have expanded critical range with bows, but not with spells.
- If you take the archery fighting style you get a +2 bonus to attacks with ranged weapons, but not with spells.
So yeah, it's a nifty option, but from a strict matter of how much "kill those guys" you can sling around, going with a bow is a better choice.
Both elf and mountain dwarves loose some class features when they take fighter, as the weapon proficiencies won't stack. And great weapons likely do more damage, having a higher damage die, so they're still the ideal offensive fighter.
The cantrip is neat, but without a high Int it won't have much use in combat.
Still, not a bad build.
The_Jester wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Forum bugged on my last quote for some reason.
Do elves get a prof. bonus with their cantrip?
masterfat78 wrote:
It is very good that elves are competent fighters without feat taxes, as the lore highlights them as skilled combatants. However, the cantrip is little more than (awesome IMO) a cute gimmick. At least I think so...
The only thing that's a little off (to me) is that the only weapon they can't use with dex is the longsword, which is a very traditional elf weapon.. I like abanathie's suggestion of allowing elves to finesse longswords, but forfeiting the versatile trait when applying the finesse trait.
EDIT: spelling "abanathie"
They get shortswords too, which are finesse weapons.
Ultimately, it's a fun choice that while not the best fighter in the game, is absolutely plenty good enough to do very well in the game. It's a very good choice.
I worry that dex will be the god-stat in this game. You used to not get a dex bonus to damage with melee weapons, IIRC; now you can do a finesse fighter with most of the benefits of a Str fighter and very few of the minuses. Am I wrong?
Brimleydower wrote:
Hurin88 wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
abanathie wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
LFK wrote:
mellored wrote:
LFK wrote:
LFK wrote:
mellored wrote:
Me neither, but they are there now basically disabling the high elf weaponless rogue and probably killing the viability of most rogue/wizard multiclass combinations :/
kalil wrote:
I have no comment on whether either of these is actually true, I don't know.
But I think it would be hilarious if dwarf wizards and high elf fighters were both overpowered.
ankiyavon wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Am I missing something here?...
Okay. The Elf gets a cantrip. That's fine. Having an unlimited magical ranged attack is you know... decent. Probably better than trying to carry around 80 arrows or throwing axes.
On the other hand, the Halfling has the same boost to Dexterity and gets to reroll 1s on attack rolls. And saves. And ability checks.
They can also move through occupied spaces and have advantage against fear which pops up way more than people trying to enchant elves or put them to sleep (how few enemies use sleep spells?)
Yeah, I think Halfling is the better Dex fighter.
Hebitsuikaza wrote:
Yeah for cantrip I would go for Mage Hand, Minor Illusion or maybe Light (now your sword glows like a magic sword!). Damage cantrips would be at the bottom of the list were I a high elf fighter.
It's not the highest damage output, it's not the highest possible AC, the cantrip is suboptimal at high levels. I don't see it as OP, I just see it as a balanced build. You don't have many weaknesses, but you don't excel in anything either. Nothing wrong with that build. It's not a problematic build and should do fine in a game. Keep in mind if you are doing shield and sword and switching to bow back and forth that will cost you actions. At higher levels using your cantrip will cost you all your other attacks, so you would only use it if the creature were immune to your weapon damage and you needed some magic damage (assuming you don't have a magical weapon).
It's one of those builds that seems really cool at low levels, but at higher levels when the heavy armor two handed guy next to you is cranking out massive hits, and the wizard is pounding out magical damage, you won't think your OP. Good news is you won't be irrelevant either and that's awesome.
Particle_Man wrote:
mellored wrote:
Polaris wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Seems a viable build and I had a hard look at it the other night as I kind of liked the concept. There is no d8 finesse weapoins now IIRC so you are dealing 1d6 damage and would be licky to have an AC much higher than 15 or 16 at level 1
Speaking as an elf-fan, if High Elves aren't overpowered already, they certainly should upon final publication. Of course, if you play a high elf wizard who always fights in melee with his ancestral longsword, in spite of his Dex bonus, that's an automatic Inspiration Point every time you enter melee combat, right? I guess high elves just 
really are
that awesome!
Zardnaar wrote:
Id say the main benefit of being an elf fighter is being immune to sleep, and adv on charm saves. Screw you enemy wizards!
Polaris wrote:
Honestly proficiency in perception alone makes elves a good choice for any class. It almost doesn't matter what RPG you are playing the most important skill always seems to be perception in my experience. +2 dex is useful for any class, and it is fantastic for martial classes.
Back in the day I had a DM that let me use Shocking Grasp through a metal weapon. It's not RAW, but I'd allow it if a player asked me. Swapping a touch attack for vs AC is fine in my book.
knightserpent wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
knightserpent wrote: