Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CCE1981 Aug 09, 2014 19:17:47	First off, I believe myself to be a pretty good DM.  In 3rd Ed I wrote numerous dungeon cralls for my group and learned some pretty good story telling techniques and got used to characters not conforming to the plan.    So, I picked up a copy of Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and I gotta ask the following:   How in the world, without a massive rewrite, are first level characters to even SURVIVE the FIRST mission?  I cannot think of ANY PLAUSIBLE reason why any party would be stupidly incompetant enough to even attempt saving a town that is currently occupied by a hostile force and supported by an ADULT BLUE DRAGON!!!   Just to be clear that Blue Dragon with ANY of its attacks will outright KILL any 1st level adventurer, and they would know that it is a suicide mission   I know what the scenario says, the characters don't! It is incompetant DMing to force players to use out of game knowledge, in this case the Family Guy "we have 4 of the main characters we'll be fine", to write your adventures!      Please note I can make this work, but I pretty much have to rewrite almost everything in this scenario in order to do this.  Am I missing something in this?  Please tell me I am, or am I gonna have to rewrite EVERY scenario to make this module work?   Thanks!
#2 tallric_kruush Aug 09, 2014 21:23:44	I don't yet have this adventure, but it sounds like we may be able to transfer over our level 5 "Phandalin" veterans after all! I was worried the encounters would need far too much adjusting to make it worthwhile, but this sounds doable, at least at the intro. I'm eager to hear what others have to say, as I'll be running this adventure sometime in the not too distant future.   By the way, in which city or town does this adventure begin?
#3 Tony_Vargas Aug 09, 2014 22:26:37	At first glance the expectation appears to be that the PCs will make their way into town, kill a few kobolds to get to 2nd, then do some "missions in no particular order to gain more levels, before ever coming to the dragon's attention.   Note that PCs that die can get charity-raised from the dead by their faction in Encounters.
#4 Sgt_Scott Aug 10, 2014 0:05:32	Hi-   I like the concept but I would prefer the players get to know the people and town better before throwing them into the meat of the adventure proper. The way I plan to to run this one is have the players enrout discover a cult scouting team a few miles from the village, engage and destroy/ or capture the scouts and find out that the main body of Dragon cultists and their mercenarey support is a few days from attackking Hommlet (im using Greyhawk for this campaign) . This gives the players a chance to interact with the locals and possibly plan hit and run tactics as the bad guys draw closer. The main battle will take place on the Feast of St Crispens Day. By this time the players should be at level 3 or 4 and able to handle the encounters much more compently without a DM fiat.   Anyway, look forward to DM'ing this one, it has some nice ideas that I do like about it.     Scott
#5 The_Jester Aug 10, 2014 0:11:13	It's not "out of game knowledge" to tell the players that the dragon will rip them apart. Really, since you have to tell them that, it's the opposite. Their characters should know the dragon is a deadly threat and is out of their weight class (being more familiar with th world) so it's up to you to communicate that character knowledge to the players.   Preferably, they should ask. You can set up the situation to make them want to ask if they think they can take it. Describe the dragon as a menacing threat that strikes fear into them and the tension in the air throughout the town, even from experienced mercenaries. Describe the power of the beast, the tangible effect it has on the sights and sounds of the town.  If they're still not biting, you can show not tell, by having the dragon rip apart an NPC.   If they're still desperate to pick a fight, likely assuming the 3e-4e rules of "fair fights" still apply, feel free to have it rip them to sheds, playing with them like a cat plays with a mouse. It can even opt not to kill them, viewing them as a laughable threat. Toying with them. Maybe a little cruel torture or scarring before it gets bored, or it gets called away before it can finish. If your PCs are game, it might opt to casually kill a fallen PC as "a lesson for anyone else with rebellious inklings".
#6 Xeviat-DM Aug 10, 2014 0:26:35	I don't like the notion of "teaching the PCs a lesson"; in this case, I know it's coming from the dragon's character, but it always feels like a DM trying to tell their players how to play the game.   Now, I'd play it by ear for how your group likes to play things. If they attack the dragon when they have no chance, either kill them or take them prisoner.
(Reply to #5) CCE1981	The_Jester wrote:
(Reply to #7) Sgt_Scott	Hi ya-   Did run Hoard of the Dragon Queen kind of. The first adventure was basically setting up the confrontion between the party and the Dragon cult.  So the first adventure had the players leaving Greyhawk to go to Hommlet  at the bequest of St Cuthberts clergy to help with an archelogoical dig in the Walkwoods just outside of Hommlet. Now here is the set up for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the players as they travel towards Hommlet see an abanded cart with four dead goblins and one dead hibgoblin. These guys got ambushed by two Owlbears and as the PC's come upon the seen, they see both owlbears feasting on the dead gobo's. The players go into action and kill the owlbears and recover both stolen loot and plans to invade Hommlet and loot it for the Dragon Cult. From what the plans say, it looks like the main body of the Dragon cult raiders is still a few days off, so this will give the players a chance to warn Hommlet and get ready for an epic battle.   Note, I as the DM did start the players at 3rd level, I think the Adventure will need for the PC's to be higher level at start.   Scott       CCE1981 wrote:
#9 THEMNGMNT Aug 10, 2014 23:06:29	I do think that HotDQ needs some work, unfortunately, but it's not as bad as the OP suggests. Episode 1 is great on paper but was clearly written without a full understanding of the final state of the rules. The biggest problem is that there are a half-dozen missions and, at most, players can only get a short rest. This isn't really viable for first level characters using RAW. Here are my suggestions:   First, do not reveal the blue dragon at the beginning of the episode. I would suggest holding it till late in the episode as a scary reveal to add drama and suspense.   Second, the players need the support of an NPC cleric to help them heal between missions.   Third, I would suggest this order of events: Seek the Keep has the characters fight through the streets to reach the defended keep. Sally Port dramatizes that the keep is under seige. The Old Tunnel will allow them to sneak out of the keep in order to reach... Sanctuary. This mission allows them to rescue an NPC cleric of Chauntea who can help heal them for future missions. Once they are back at the keep, have them Save the Mill and then capture Prisoners. Finally, climax with the Dragon Attack and the Half-Dragon Champion. The Dragon Attack is mostly spectacle. The dragon doesn't need to engage directly with the players. It just needs to rip up the town and the keep to underline that the Cult is a mighty force for evil. It's a good climactic beat.   Alternately, you could combine Seek the Keep and Sanctuary so that the players meet the NPC cleric at the very beginning of the mission. In any case, he should/could provide a potion of healing to each character so the players are better equipped from the beginning.   I find it odd that the Cult is attempting to loot the Sword Coast to gather an epic hoard and yet nowhere in the opening adventure do players directly see or attempt to stop the Cult from stealing something valuable. I might add a mission to Episode 1 where players are tasked with defending the treasury or the home of a wealthy individual.   If I were to run this campaign, I would give serious thought to combining it with Lost Mine of Phandelver. I would make the BBEG from Lost Mine be an agent of the Cult. It makes perfect sense that he's trying to secure the Lost Mine and its legendary wealth for use by the Cult. After the players defeat him, have Venomfang and the Cult attack Phandalin and leave it a smoking ruin as payback. After 4 or 5 levels of play the characters will be very emotionally attached to Phandalin and naturally motivated to seek revenge on the Cult.
#10 Leugren Aug 11, 2014 5:18:33	I had the exact same reaction as the OP when I read Episode 1 a couple of days ago.  It's not just the dragon that concerns me.  Any character who gets mobbed by a group kobolds will end up taking a dirt nap in a round or two, given that the kobolds will gain advantage on all of their attacks whenever they team up on someone.  There are LOTS of opportunities for this to happen over the course of episode 1.  I predict a lot of TPK's and some post-traumatic stress for the players, who will tremble uncontrollably every time they have to start a new campaign at 1st level from then on.  "Are those KOBOLDS?!?  Good God!  Run for your liiiiives!!"  In all seriousness though, I agree with @THEMNGMT that the adventure was probably written without a full understanding of the final state of the rules.  His suggestions are sound, though I would also strongly consider starting the party out at a higher level than first.  I myself will hold off on running this module until I hear some actual first-hand accounts from people who have actually experienced it, so I can learn how they coped.
#11 GEBELL Aug 11, 2014 20:18:49	In a world with bounded accuracy an adult blue dragon is not as invincible as it might be in prior versions.  Not to suggest the PC's can even kind of take it on, they can't, but it does mean that in this world they could reasonably think it safe to whole up in the keep.  In fact, considering there are raiders roaming the countryside, going into the town to seek the security of the keep is arguably the safest thing to do.  The idea being that the PC's see the dragon as flying overhead, but not directly attacking, because in this world even dragons can't just smash a keep with milita archers to the ground.  That's how I viewed it when I read it.
#12 Prom Aug 12, 2014 0:21:46	This sounds concerning. I'd be interested to here what people have experienced once they run the adventure.
#13 TempestRime Aug 12, 2014 14:47:40	Only skimmed this topic since I'm playing in this at the moment, but I will say that my group TPK'd twice in one session on the first chapter, so it's not just a matter of appearances.  We did pretty well at first, but the inability to ever get heals or spells back wore us down over time.  I'm not even sure if our DM is going to continue the campaign at this point.