| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| Dragon Disciple .pdfCypherSevenMay 11, 2015 17:48:37 | Hi I looked around and couldn't find a class that I wanted that focused on dragons the way I wanted. I hope you like this class. I wanted to make it as balanced as possible.
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| #2rampantMay 11, 2015 22:54:36 |
Technical issues:
1.) Dragon scales, why does this ability exist? The class already has light armor, and the HP boost is basically turning them into a d12 class, at level one. Either scrap it, or move it to a sub-class becaus ethe HP boost actually works for a sub-class. For a core class it's just clutteirng up the chart when you could save time and just use a larger HD, and if you're giving more HP to a class that already has a d12 then you are DOING IT WRONG!
2.) I assume using the breath wepaon is an action?
3.) Seven ability boosts/feats? Really? You think these guys rate that many?
4.) Ok please explain in detail the thoughts behind your strange control scheme for the dragon wings. Are you flying as a bonus action?
5.) True dragon Manifestation, ok dude this is not a good idea, see you've got them turning into the dragon of their tribe, which means that since the various dragon tribes aren't balanced against each other that you'll be punishing/rewarding players who reach the capstone based on their choice of tribe which has had no real difference thorughout play up until that point. Furthermore you're using the craptastic shapeshifting that 5e had demonstrated so far.
6.) Where do you detail the claw ability? It's on the chart, but not detailed anywhere I can find it.
7.) Dragon strike should probably run off con or cha modifier rather than strength.
8.) Dragon shout's damage could probablys tand to scale a bit.
9.) Everything in dragon magic is covered elswhere it seems redundant.
10.) How often can you use a dragon gem's powers?
11.) Heart of the dragon references sorceror level?
12.) Shadow step needs to specify that you only get the bonus if you use the teleport ability, and why does it have to be melee?
13.) A use limit on cloak of shadows would probably be a good idea.
14.) the shadow summoning is one of those powers that's really good, probably broken at first but eventually is gonna stop being very useful as monsters become less susceptble ot shadows.
Conceptual Issues:
1.) Double Prof to checks with dragons? Why? It might make sense if this was an ability dragons or half-dragons already had, but they don't so it makes no bloody sense. Dragons have no especial bond with one another and in most worlds compete with adventurers for number one cause of dragon death.
2.) I'd advise a different name than lineage fo the sub-classes, you've already got that comign from the dragon color anyway.
3.) Draconic inspiration kind of feel's like it's coming out of left field.
4.) Dracomancers don't need 4 cantrips at level 3. Considering the class already has it's basic attack routine taking shape at that point 2 seems like more than enough.
5.) Consideirng that this is a sub-class, the spells that work for a sorceror and the spells that would be a good plan for a dracomancer are going to be rather different since the dracomancer is still very much a weapon using class, and without the higher level spell slots reallty can't rely on spells as their primary damage source. I suggest crafitng a custom spell list that take sinto account that they ar enot primary casters.
6.) Why would being dragon blooded give you access to druid or wizard rituals via ancient rituals?
7.) Dragon gems damage re-roll power is a bit iffy since it'd be a bad day when you're relying on dracomancer spell damage.
8.) The spell options for detonate Gem seem a bit random.
9.) Wording on shadow ancestry means it would change a dragon born character's racial breath weapon.
Suggestions:
1.) You have a lot of disparate abilities that don't devleop well or get integrated with each other. Ok your breath weapons dmage scales, which is nice, but you never do anything with it after level 1 besides tack on another d8 on occasion. Damage scaling isn't an ability it's just keeping up, in fact I've really got to advise you to set it up so that even multi-classes dragon warriors get the scaling breath weapon, the language you use is a bit vague on that point. The you get the flight, fear, and transformation powers that come in and never change ever again. The class really doens't seem to be very cohesive. You need to focus on developing powers not just adding them. Throw in somehting like a free recharge and reactive use of the breath weapon the first time in a fight someone gets you to half health. Maybe Elemental bite deals more damage if you haven't used your breath weapon? Maybe start them with training in intimidate and then add lesser fear and awe powers until their ready for the big aura effect? Chip off a few of the more useless or redundant abilities and a few of those stat boosts to make room.
2.) I'd really advise nuking the warrior aspect of the core class. You can have warrior themed sub-classes, but seriously consider making the core class focus on draconic powers and abilities and then use the subclasses for things like martial weapons. You've already kind of set it up that way. |
| #3CypherSevenMay 11, 2015 23:17:09 | Rampant thank you so much for all the help you are awesome. I will change a ton of stuff and I hope you like it.
Some of the stuff is straight from the 5e player's handbook like the flying and " Additionally, whenever you make a Charisma check when interacting with dragons, your proficiency bonus is doubled if it applies to the check.". Draconic sorcerers already get those bonuses so I thought it seemed fitting. Along with many other things.
I thank you for the criticism and I will be making changes right now. |
| #4rampantMay 11, 2015 23:39:50 | The double prof on checks with dragons didn't make any sense on sorcerors.
The problem with the wing comes form some changes you made, the sorc wings are magic in nature and are dismissed/summoned via a bonus action, you altered things and in the process it make the entry read like you were using th ebonus actions to fly. |
| #5LuisCarlos17fMay 12, 2015 0:14:47 | My suggestion is to use a game mechanic for those draconic powers like the incarnum soulmelds.
Why not a name like "draconidai" (dragonkin was a 3.5 creature from Draconomicon and "monsters of Faerun). |
| #6CypherSevenMay 12, 2015 0:29:11 | Ok I changed a couple of things but I'm going to totally change the Dragoon to give the player more options and get rid of the stuff you didn't like rampant. I'll add a game mechanic for draconic powers like luis wanted and change the lore so it looks like less of a race and more of using a dragons fighting style and dragon magic. I updated it so you get see what I did for now. I'll change the rest tomorrow. |
| #7rampantMay 12, 2015 10:24:19 | More picking at the wings:
Are they permanent? physically shapeshifted on and off? or magically conjured? IF the first you need to scrap all mention of bonus actions and just give them the fly speed, but mention that the wings need to be accounted for in armor/clothes. If the second you need to cut/paste the sorceror ability but sub out the term grow for conjure, and mention the armor/clothes issues. If the third you just cut-paste the sorc ability. |
| #8CypherSevenMay 12, 2015 13:53:02 | I changed the lore almost completly. It should make much more sense, define the class and make it easier for you to make a character. I changed the flying to a simpler version that is based on the Aaracokra. It should be very straight forward now. I changed the wording all the stuff rampant wanted. The breath attack now has the action paragraph. Breath attack also now scales based on your total level? This sounds op and nothing else I think in 5e works like that but w/e. I changed the description of dragon magic and the cantrips from 4 to 3.
Should there be a limit on how many shadows you can summon? I also changed it so you can teleport to your shadow within 60 feet to make the shadow more interactive and useful later on.
I'll change the rest of it in a bit so that there is some sort of game play mechanic based on dragons for the class that allows options options and intergrates with the breath attack. Hopefully that's it and the class should be somewhat decent? |
| #9rampantMay 12, 2015 15:25:46 | The breath weapon needs to scale differently from other powers in 5e because it is different from other powers in 5e, much like how multi-classed casters still get some progression to their spell slots, or like how a cantrip needs to scale with character level because it doens't get modified or powered up any other way. Really you could have gotten away with just stating that they roll a number of d8 equal to their prof bonus.
I'm still not a fan of draconic scales Seems like an easier to boost version of the barbarian ability. I don't like letitng them run their attacks and enhanced defense on the same stat. However it is a vast improvement.
Claws.... Why? You already have martial weapons, at least with the bite you had elemental damage and it was a bonus action attack.
Speaking of the bite attack you might wanna specify that it's a melee attack that they are considered proficient in.
Honestly I think this class may need to be re-structured. Dragons are big powerful creatures with lots of abilties and mythology behind them You're probably looking at a class concept that works better with the pathfinder or d20 modern style where wyou have a limited set of core powers and you may select special abilities from a list of options every once in a while. See right now your class is still very incoherent and all over the map, you've filed some rough edges off but the structure remains messy. PArt of this is the sheer size of what your'e trying to cram into a class, I'd advise creating some talents and talent trees one for advanced breath techniques, one for nat weapon abuse, one for size-power, one for fear, one for wings, and then letting each individual player build their own dragon-blood. Then if you still have design space for the sub-classes you can use them to tweak the class more towards wariror, rogue, mage, etc.
See the problem is that you have a list of powerful abilities that while cohesive for a monster dont't pan out the same way when scaled down for a PC especially seeing as dragons are designed under a different set of parameters than Player Characters. Trying to shove it all into a single class is problematic and you end up with a rather incoherent mess.
Yes there should be a limit on shadows, also Summoning is a very iffy power in general becaus e it can be both incredibly unbalancing and at the same time it's easy for the monsters to fade into irrelevance at higher levels, also they should either be a limited number of shadows you can maintain or they need to fade away/run off eventually. |
| #10CypherSevenMay 12, 2015 18:11:11 | Rampant you are awesome. What do you mean by ' I'd advise creating some talents and talent trees one for
Do you have an example you can give me? I'm not totally sure how to do that but I will try. |
| #11rampantMay 12, 2015 21:30:03 | Well how much experience do you have with d20 modern or pathfinder? or the saga edition starwars rpg?
See insttead of pre-set progressions the classes have some basic core features and then most of them have the ability to pick a few class specific powers off a list longer than any one character could ever hope to master barringinsane epic levels. Sort of like how the 3e rogue had special abilities it could pick every so often, only the focus of the class progression focuses a lot more on these abilities, to the point where some of the modern or saga characters of the same class wouldn't have any shared class features beyond Hit die and BaB.
So for example let's say Breath weapon, and energy resist are the core powers of the class. Every few levels you get a talent that you can use on one of a number of potential abilities specific to the class. For example You might be able to get Bloodied breath as a talent (the first time you are reduced to half hp during an encounter your breath rweapon recharges and you may use it as a reaction), or instead maybe you'd prefer to pick up the first of the fear powers, probably the ability to intimidate in combat as an action that has some sort of status effect, or maybe you'd prefer the first stage of flight? (grow the wings, immune to falling, can glide). Then as you go some of the talents unlock more advanced talents, if you take the glide talent you can get up to full flight with another one (posisbly level locked), or you eventually work your way up to the fear aura, natural attacks come in with special powers and effects, bite as a bonus action, tail attack as a reaction ability with a special rider of some sort, claws that grab, extra attacks, or more advanced breath powers like twice between rests, or an aura of your energy type that damages peopel who get too close?
You getting it? |
| #12CypherSevenMay 12, 2015 21:37:12 | The only rpg I have played is 5e. I'm a total scrub.
I had an idea of choices like you mentioned but not upgrade paths that get stronger. That sounds cool. I don't think there is anything like that in 5e? I'll make up some talent trees right now. I was just kinda tired of doing this over and over.
Thank you for all the help. |
| #13rampantMay 12, 2015 22:26:17 | I wouldn't try to mix the soulmeld method with the pathfinde rmethod at least not until you've sorted things out a bit more. They're kind of different solutions to the same issues. |
| #14CypherSevenMay 12, 2015 22:52:12 | I changed some things and updated it. I added a way for the breath attack to get upgraded and changed the claw attacks so you have a choice and they are useful now. I added some more customisation based on the dragon type you pick so it matters a bit more. It's still not finished and I'll change the levels you get things around abit so its balanced but I wanted to have non-combat options.
Is it getting better? |
| #15LuisCarlos17fMay 13, 2015 0:17:38 | What if I wish to create a dragonborn sorcerer/dragonfire adept/dragon shaman (+ half-dragon template).
My suggestion is some "monster traits" like wings, breath attack or natural weapons, should be incarnum soulmelds, because they are easy to be replaced with others if the character have got it because another ways.
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| #16rampantMay 13, 2015 9:21:13 | Right, it's essentually a way of modularizing the powers so you can focus on the ones you actually want/need instead of trying to make the class balanced while shoving a whole dragon into it. Instead of talent trees you hand out a couple of abilities up front but make them weak/non-extant on their own but then every round the character has a set of points that they can redistribute between the abilities so you can adapt to your situation.
It can get a little complex but it's a pretty solid approach.
Ok current version nit picks:
1.) Ok seriously why does this class start with martial weapons, get double attack, and then grow nat weapons? If this is meant to be a primary weapon user make it one, if it's meant to primarily rely on nat attacks put them up front. If you want nat weapons as a support schtick make them all like the bonus bite and reaction tail in that they don't nterfere with weapon use.
2.) Relentless breath.... Why would you make it that complex? Also when does the DC reset? A better method would be to use pre-set triggers that are more predictable and less screwing of your action economy. Like the bloodied breath, or maybe resets after 5 rounds? or something less random, or at least somehting automatic so the player isn't getitng screwed.
3.) Aura, firstly it doesn't really mesh wioth the other abilities, secondly why can you only emit one when you only learn one, 10 ft is not a lot of room to work with, and frankly some of them are iffy utility at best, I don't think confirmation rolls are even a hting in 5e so white is just plain nonsensical.
4.) What does it take to make armor accomodate your wings?
5.) TRue dragon manifestation is still horrible. See it uses the MM entires which aren't balanced for PC use and are certainly not balanced against each other so a gold disciple is going to be Op compared to a brass. What you need to do is treat it less like 5e's garbage shapeshifting, and more like the 3.5 barbarian rage an altered state with limited duration/uses that offers specific bonuses rather than trying to use an MM for a PC (never use MM entires for PCs it never ends well).
6.) The clas sis still all over the map and you need to resolve two issues in order to fix it as far as aI can tell: A.) Is this class a warrior with dragon traits or a class focused on turning into a dragon-like being? B.) A dragon is too big for any one PC to get all the things. You need to cut it down somehow and make the powers progress instead of just slapping new dramatically different powers down every couple of levels. There are a couple ways to do that, the soulmeld method, the d20 modenr method, both of which I've described, or you could go for somehtign a bit more standard 5e wher eyou pick 2 of th emajor aspects of dragon hood and maybe a minor one and build those progressions into the core class then take the other major aspects and make them into sub-classes, |
| #17CypherSevenMay 13, 2015 17:46:10 | Rampant thanks for all the help again. You're knowledge has really helped me learn a lot.
1.) You are right of course. I'll change the natural stuff to bonus actions but for the extra attack. I don't know exactly what to do since it's a class unlike any of the others. It gives you a choice between the three default archtypes (warrior,rogue,wizard) but is more close range focused like a dragon. Do I take away double attack and give it only to the warrior archtype then add more dragon choices...?
2.) I didn't think it was that complex, it's the same thing as what barbarians use in 5e. Dragons also use a random way to get their breath back in 5e but that might not be the best way like you mentioned. Sorry about not finishing typing it out I was just really really tired. I changed it so its not a bonus action and dosn't screw with action economy. I'll think of a simple creative way for it to give the attack back.
3.) I just posted up what I have done so far. I'm tired and didn't get a chance to change everything but I might add a set of more auras you can change between. It seemed like an ok mechanic.
4.) Ask your DM.
5.) Wait so make it like a 'rage' ability that gives bonuses but is different for each dragon or just the same for all?
6.) I wanted it to not be a warrior class but a class focused on emulating a dragon-like being. Sometimes by turning into them, or fighting like them. I don't really like that soulmeld method it looks really complicated. D20 modern method looks like a monster to make. I don't know if I could make that much stuff for the class. I might do the more standard 5e where I will give choices on dragon aspects and a minor one for the core class. I'll figure something out about the martial weapons.
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| #18rampantMay 14, 2015 18:34:12 | Well if you want it to be a dragon class, you can yoink the 2nd attack and the martial weapons. Well martial weapons definetly may wanna keep extra attack around for now, might need to scrap it later might not. So if you wanna do 5e style then let's break it down what are the aspects of dragonhood you want to be on the table?
My list is: Major - basic Breath weapon powers (aura, quick, damage boost to weapon attacks), toughness, size-strength, fear/awe, natural weapons(/armor? may actually be under toughness it could go either way) Minor - Wings, magic, senses, advanced breath manipulation (type changes, special effects, animate breathe, lingering, clinging, etc), divine patrons (bahamut, tiamat, sardior, excetera)
So What I'd do is make the basic breath powers and the toughness into the core major features, wiuth some sensory powers thrown in, that way the class is effectevely a front line controller, then the other stuff can be sub-classes some of which will skew them more towards a more traditional class archetype such as the size-strength build being more warrior-ish, the magic and advanced breath builds ar emore mage like, the wings are a bit rogue-ish maybe?
But feel free to concoct your own list. |
| #19CypherSevenMay 15, 2015 0:38:24 | I changed it a around abit. I moved the extra attack and added more things for specific types.I tried to format is better. It should look nicer. When it gets closed to finish I'll add the background from the books and some better artwork.
Work is just really tiring. I'm going to change the warrior aspect but I put just a place holder there.I need to make a maneuver style list or some options for them. Or I could be lazy and make it just like the fighter champion. I changed the weapons they get also so only the warrior aspect gets martial weapons. I'll change the fear aura class feature to a breath upgrade mabye and I don't know what else it's just seems like too much work. |
| #20CypherSevenMay 15, 2015 21:00:50 | I changed the warrior archtype and the formatting. It should be pretty close to done now. I mean I like it. |
| #21rampantMay 16, 2015 10:01:54 | Gold's +1 on all saves at level fiv eis major league OP, and silver's level 5 power stops being useful when you get the wings, or at the very least becomes far less useful.
Also should I bother explianing why you need to use modfieirs only for true dragon manifestation again or have you decided that you're going to use the MM entries come hell, high water, or logic? |
| #22CypherSevenMay 18, 2015 15:37:17 | I changed the last couple things it should be fine to play now. |
| #23DiffanMay 18, 2015 16:02:09 | Just downloaded it, looks pretty awesome. |
| #24CypherSevenMay 19, 2015 21:38:28 | I changed the way the tables look and one or two small things for balance. |