Now that we have gotten the jest of the rules, how successful do you think the game will be?
Is it what you expected?
Did they deliver on what they promised?
Is it looking like the edition they hoped for?
Does it look like it will go down in flames?
Is it just a "meh" edition? ( been hearing a lot of this one).
What do you think?
I think 5E is fantastic and will thrive!
How successful it is will depend on how many people agree with me 
We've only seen the very basic game, and only for part of a holiday weekend. All I care is if it's a good game and people enjoy it.
I think it will do better than 4e.
I think it will still leave out a lot of players because of certain decisions in the design. So those players will just keep on playing what they are playing. Pathfinder will still do well because Paizo knows their business even if it is not for me.
At this point I don't think there is a unity edition. It's not possible. 5e is as good a try as they could make given all the disparate preferences in their playerbase. The DMG may help but I still don't believe the devs fully understand the issues so how can you address them if you don't understand them.
So while I dislike some things they've done I do believe the game at least looks like D&D at a glance.
Pathfinder convert speaking! I think we might be surprised at how many PF people give it a shot. Forumgoers usually amount to a very vocal minority. I don't expect a lot of people to abandon PF wholesale, but not everyone confines themselves to singular systems.
I think the usual edition release needs several months for the dust to settle. Time for comparisons to current video games to simmer down; time for people whose dogs were ran over by the new edition to go through the grieving process fully; etc. All the usual suspects shuffle out the door, the numbers start rolling in, yada yada. I have high hopes, and Basic has scratched enough itches for me to want to support it. The next hurdle comes in how truly modular the system will be when the core product line is out.
Ask that question after December.
I'm an old-school gamer. I really enjoy the all the stuff that came of the OSR movement. Unbound by copyright laws, the old rules flourished with countless retro-clones and fan-supplements, and for it, there has been a boom of new rules and gaming ideas. But I'm not an absolute Gragnard. My consecration only goes so far. Even with the simplicity of the older rules, I hate THAC0 and the five categories of saving throws, so I use a but of the v3.x rules to cut down on the math and paperwork. The truth is, I seldom play any game in a holistic way. The rules I use tend to be a patchwork of different game systems. Anything that is easy, with some novel elements to spice things up. I would sort through rule books to see what works and what doesn't.
Art wise, I tend to favor the old line art. I tend to see the art in 4e and Pathfinder to be way too loud and hyperactive for my liking -- they lack any sense of mood or subtlety. For example, Lockwood once did a great, pulp-styled pic of Orcus that was moody and sinister, but Reynolds turned him into a lumbering brute with comically large proportions. It way seem superficial to judge a game bay the art, but to me it plays a major part as a whole. Being dyslexic, art clips serves as a landmark in an endless sea of text. They also evoke the mood and imagination of the players. And it is nice to just sit down and enjoy the work that went into each book.
As for this new game...
...
Its not bad... Not bat at all!!
If the free rules are the core rules for the other books (PHB, etc.), then this is a good thing! The rules are simple and open-ended enough to house-rule with. I can see some elements from the 4e/Sage game, but they are better represented. The rules definitely captures an old-school feel about it, while using some of the newer rules to make things even easier to work with or interesting (like Advantages/Disadvantages). The Personality Traits are a good addition to help novice players come up with character hooks and avoid the countless "Bob" clones (those characters who so lack in any background or personality, they are lucky to have a name). Mind you, its not my thing, but as long as it is an optional component, then I am content. I also like how they removed "Alignment" as an attack type. They still have "Radiant" for holy-effects and "Necrotic" for fiendish-effects, but their are no stupid stuff like "Protection form Law/Chaos", and that is a huge plus to me.
I have not had the chance to see the artwork. (The lack of Wayne Reynolds in the art credits is a big damn plus for me!) Nor the monsters stats. (Are there any samples of them? Just an Orc... A Goblin... Anything!)
If I had the money to burn (and money is really tight with me right now), I would totally buy this other game that came out (its a damn good retro game), but if that was not a consideration... Yeah... I would still have to think about this new game. (After the 4e fiasco, just reconsidering a WotC D&D rulebook is a huge step. And with that, there is hope for the future of this line. Hell, people on old-school forums are taking note, and so far, the feedback seems fairly positive.)
I believe there are several factors that will determine the success of D&D 5th edition.
I really hope they have come to realize their circumstances have changed. Before that, if you wanted a medieval style RPG that had wizards and dragons, you more than not went to D&D. Now a days, you don't even have to go to D&D if you want to play D&D. Relying on the brand name isn't going to secure success like it used to, so they really need to bring a quality product to the table if they want to have a chance.
I think they're in a bit of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't situation". I expect the game to sell well in the beginning because you can't critique it unless you have full access to all the rules. Another thing that could hurt them is split support. If you are buying a few products here and there, you aren't truly supporting the brand or the company. They need you to spend loads of money on their products in order to survive. Book prices haven't decreased by any means so trying to stretch yourself between various RPGs is very costly. Trying to keep up between two games that contain expensive products is something most gamers just cannot do. If I make a one time purchase of the PHB, DMG, and MM then I'm not supporting D&D on a level they need.
I don't really see it dominating the market, nor do I see other companies tripping over themselves to have the rules as part of the OGL.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Despite 5e seeming to directly target me.(old school with a touch of build fun), they still missed. Part of that is 4e lessons learned. I'm sure if 5e came out after 3e I would have bought a lot of books like I did with 4e. Now though I'm an informed gamer and I understand my own preferences very well.
My group will likely buy the game I choose for my rpg needs. They probably for the most part won't buy 5e.
It will be interesting to see how 5e does. I'm not sure. On the other, I wish wotc would try harder to provide for the playstyle I prefer.
Rottle wrote:
Gunthar wrote:
Rottle wrote:
I have removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Comment button below the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
As an old school gamer and a Pathfinder Society player/GM (it was the only game in town when I got back into gaming 2 years ago) I have already talked to my local gaming store and am going to organize Adventurers League play at the store. I love the 5e system so far, and am looking forward to doing my part to make 5e as popular and sucessful as possible.
I don't know if 5e is going to be a success or not but it looks like a game I'll enjoy playing.
- Now that we have gotten the jest of the rules, how successful do you think the game will be? Not very. I'm expecting it to sell really well for 5-6 months and then not at all.
- Is it what you expected? Yes
- Did they deliver on what they promised? Yes
- Is it looking like the edition they hoped for? Probably
- Does it look like it will go down in flames? Yes
- Is it just a "meh" edition? ( been hearing a lot of this one). Thats a generous way of putting it
- What do you think? Not good.
Smash hit. At the very least, I love it!
One of my groups has already converted over to 5e. I think it will be very successful by TTRPG standards.
5e is definitely something I want to try as a player. I don't know if it will be successful in the long run. I just wonder if I can get my regular gaming group to try it.
There is some really nice stuff in 5e. I especially like the way magic and buff spells are handled, backgrounds, and the focus on interacting with the world and roleplaying. That focus on interacting with the world and roleplaying is what is really great about D&D (and other RPGs generally). I think 5e does that perfectly.
My regular gaming group plays 3.5 and pathfinder. We are all middle aged guys who played 1st edition in high school. When 4e came out, I tried to get them to give it a whirl, but no dice. They are slow to change systems. Nowadays, only one of the 3-4 campaigns we play is 3.5e, the rest are pathfinder. Since pathfinder has been around for years now, there are all sorts of cool options that a person will have to wait for to get in 5e. So I don't know if any of them will run a campaign using it.
My current campaign is winding down. It is set in an early modern/pirate type setting, and since pathfinder has rules for black powder firearms, it works well for me for this campaign. The two new campaigns that I want to start are a mutant (due to chaos radiation) weird west type setting, or a fairie muskateers type game. Neither works with 5e easily. If the player's handbook is cool enough, I might try to think up a different campaign that works more easily with the initial material.
There is actually one DM in our group whose campaign world would be *awesome* using the 5e rules. But he is also the only one of us that still uses 3.5e.
It is going to be AWESOME!
It would be great if the Pathfinder fans came on board and supported this version of D&D. I would also love it if the Paizo people were back in the D&D fold too. They are the most creative people in the gaming world right now and I think that they would really make this version special but that ship sailed and we have the Kolbold people. I am very happy with the products I have seen from Kolbold and so I have high hope for their modules and for this version to be successful the support products will be more important the the core rule books.
Ishorn wrote:
I expect it's going to be quite successful; both 3e and 4e were quite successful when they launched.
Ishorn wrote:
I really doubt Paizo will do anything with 5e, at least in the next couple years. From the sound of it on their forums the Paizo staff is absolutely swamped with putting out products just for Pathfinder. It wouldn't make sense to take time away from that and put it into a competitor's product.
Hopefully 5e will mean we get to see some other companies come out and produce Paizo quality modules and adventure paths. Pathfinder sees some good quality 3rd party content, but it really gets overshadowed by Paizo official releases. With 5e we can see these 3rd party guys putting out high production official main story modules. I really think 5e will live or die based on that material and how those relationships are handled.
I think that so far it looks like the game will be able to stand on its own. The problem is marketing and PR. On that all we can do is listen to what WotC has to say and hope they have learned from their past mistakes. The Morningstar tools alone...as little as we know...already shows they have learned SOMETHING.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Swing and a miss for me.
Don't know about it's success though. I guess if they appealed enough to the number-crunching MMO and anime generation that make up the masses of today's market, they'll make enough money from it, I guess. Assuming profit is how you are determining success. I think it'll be at least another moderately successful cash grab for WotC. But with all the promises and goals they laid out for this edition, if nothing else, it'll make it harder for them to crook players on a new edition too soon. If 5th fails to make them enough profit, I suspect they'll let the game go for a slightly longer while, then in about 10 years pitch an all new ressurection of the game.
I won't be buying it. Wizards and magic are too bland for me in 5th, though I feel it's an improvement over 4th. Too many lazy, MMO/anime/magical style elements to non-magic using classes for my taste. Other, non-D&D brand ttrpg's manage to bring non-casters and casters into a balance in terms of overall game contribution far better than 5th edition, without creating MMO magical fighters and rogues, or reducing wizards to a traveling novelty act capable only of parlor tricks. Games where character development wasn't focused on only the combat aspect of the game in terms of contribution, but all aspects. Some classes excel in one aspect or another, some a little at all, instead of all classes focused on combat balance as it is in 5th edition. So I'm going to stick with these other systems.
Games like 5th where the soul focus of character class development is combat balance where every class is capable to doing roughly the same amount of damage in combat using different discriptions of how they do it, is just bland and boring to me.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
I think this edition will do ok. It won't burn out like 4th,but it won't be 2ed too. This game is like vanilla ice cream. It's ok. You can't really mess up with it,but it won't blow your mind with how awsome it is.
For me personally,it will probably be go to edition for heroic fantasy. I'm currently burned out so much i won't touch pathfinder,3/3.5 or 4th edition with 11 foot pole. And i started with 3.5,loved it,still love pathfinder. So i'm left with 2 editions i can and will play. 2ed ad&d for more brutal,deadly and gritty games and 5th ed for more heroic stuff.
Since not all rules are out yet,can't really tell will it deliver what was promised. Basic is to barebones for me. It's like demo preview. You can play for a while. But i want to see whole race/class/subclass list so i can pass my final judgement. Hell,last playtest package had more stuff than this basic. So i'll dish out 100 euros for phb and mm and that's it until campaign settings come out, if they put out Ravenloft and Dark Sun that is,othervise not even that. I don't play or run adventure paths,so i'm not very good customer anyway.
The base system is solid. The game looks good. The question now is if WotC will be able to follow through on the promised modularity and quality of the rest of the core books.
A few things might cause problems.
First, there could be a dearth of follow-up material. Too much content creates system bloat, which is bad, but too little makes it hard to create the character you want.
And there's also the ease of finding content. You know if you're looking for martial content in 3e you turn to Complete Warrior, and in 4e you turned to Martial Power. The content is easy to find. But if the splatbooks are Tyranny or Dragons 2, War of the Spider God, and Pirates of the Moonsea finding the content you want becomes hard.
WotC is also bad at finishing what they start. There's so much turnover and changes of direction. They'll foreshadow content and then not follow through. Expected options might not materialize, or appear in a very different form.
If WotC changes direction with 5e continually, it will be hard for fans to feel comfortable and get settled.
It also depends on if a WotC maintains the edition. The last two editions have done a mid-edition relaunch, and both were met with a negative reaction and poor response.
5e will need some time to win back fans and let the positive feedback spread. WotC needs to be comfortable with the long term process of winning back fans and not immediately try a reboot or update. The longer they sustain 5e, the more fans that will come back or give it a try.
If it kills Pathfinder, it will do reasonably well.
Otherwise, it will most likely do poorly relative to expectations of corporate.
Gunthar wrote:
It will be a smash hit at the outset. I don't think there's any question of that. The game is very solid, and hits a good middle ground in terms of complexity between Pathfinder and the OSR. The next two years will be key; without support, a game will wither on the vine. WotC is outsourcing the support products so far, most likely because they are keeping the number of employees down (at least for the time being). I believe that third party publishers will be key to the game's survival through a full 5 year cycle. There needs to be more than one "vision" of the game, since some people will jibe with a different type of fantasy than whatever WotC uses for its art direction, etc. If that happens well, then the game will thrive even alongside Pathfinder. The level of complexity has been well pitched as an alternative rather than a direct competitor. Which is, incidentally, one way to compete.
Now that we have gotten the jest of the rules, how successful do you think the game will be?
They better start ramping up PR for 5th ed. But as of right now, I don't think it will be successful at all. I think a very vocal minority of D&D fans will scoop up as much as they can. But I think a lot of more practical players that know what they like and don't like will give this game a pass.
Is it what you expected?
Yes and no. When they laid out their original design plan, I was actually excited (especially after the massive failure of 4th). And I felt that if I expected such a version and it was delivered I would have been thrilled. Unfortunately, they did not and thus met my ultimate worried expectation of 'more of the same'.
Did they deliver on what they promised?
Absolutely NOT. Can't see how anyone can defend them and claim that they did. When you go back to their original plan that they pushed early on and what was delivered, its not even close.
Is it looking like the edition they hoped for?
I think they would like to think that it is. But after a year or so, I think they are going to find out that its not. Because the edition they are hoping for is a profitable one.
Does it look like it will go down in flames?
Not sure if it will be as big of a flop as 4th, but it might be even worse because two big failures in a row may just drive too many customers away which willhave an even greater impact on sales.
Is it just a "meh" edition? ( been hearing a lot of this one).
It's worse than a 'meh' edition. It continues to fail to cater to the crowd it promised to include. Certain game mechanics are so decisive that they are abhorent to many and it will never even reach the 'meh' status. Like a few others above pointed out. This was supposed to bring in the older crowd and old schoolers. But instead it is way too gamey and artificial in class abilities. It gives non magical classes down right magic abilities with mundane names. It does still feel like a fantasy game where every class basically does the same balanced stuff with just different descriptions on how they do them.
What do you think?
I believe it will be very successful. I've enjoyed it very much and everyone I've played it with (about 6 or 7 people so far) have liked it very much. Some of them are long time D&D players and some are brand new.
Forum posts and dicussions are not a good measure of how much the overall player base likes something, as the loudest group complaining is usually the smallest, but I've seen a lot of positive response online so far.
My favorite edition of dnd has been basic out of the dnd rules cyclopedia. The first edition I played was 2nd, and I played both 3.x and 4th/essentials from birth to death but allways the rules cyclopedia was my favorite. Until now! It surprises me but 5th Ed actually knocked my old school preference to the number two slot. I love this edition and I am planning on organizing adventure league games a t my local store. He store is owner is leery after getting burned by 4th Ed's digital tools which led to him paying 2000 dollars a. Month rent for a store that people played games in but didn't buy anything. Since then it has been nothing but pathfinder in there so it will take some work and time for WOTC to earn back hi trust, but he is willing to let me try. If I can get crowds of 8-12 for Hackmaster I should be able to get a large crowed for 5th Ed.
as for my regular group, 3/4 players are really excited about it, the fourth is waiting for the final rules to make a decision.
For success, it depends on what counts as succesful. Is it just high sales or does the game need to win over panther finder and 4th Ed holdouts? Does success mean reclaiming the throne as the exclusive fantasy RPG 90 percent of every one plays? I think if WOTC can't be succesful with an RPG system this good (whatever the criteria for that success is) then I don't think they would be succesful no matter what they did and that means a serious problem for the brand name. But, I am optimistic. Heck even hard line old schoolers on certain Facebook pages and forums are giving a nod of respect to the new edition.
My prediction is success.
I think it will come down to the release of the 3 core books. But in my location, there are very few 4e games and alot of Pathfinder. I've aleady been asked to run D&D 5e at a Pathfinder convention. What does this all mean, I'm not sure.
I'm starting to get call's from people to host D&D 5e, so it's starting well.
I hope it will do well.
I'm a 1e guy who hasn't purchased any other edition (though I did play a smattering of 2e without any purchases).
I've already preordered all the available books for 5e.
I'll keep playing 1e because 5e doesn't replace it, BUT 5e has just enough of 1e in it so that I feel like I'm in somewhat familiar territory. Plus some of the new mechanics just 'feel right'.
I don't know about those new races though - they feel so wrong.....
(the ones from beyond the 1e core books, I mean)
[Edit: I should also say that I'm holding out on two very hopeful ideas: 1) That the rules are modular so I can easily ignore/homerule whatever I want, and 2) Those two drool-worthy dragon adventure books are as good as they look and sound. If these two conditions are met, I'll buy more in the future. Otherwise, no.]
[Edit #2: There's also quite a few rules in the PDF that I might take and start using in my 1e games. In addition to a lot of new rules, there are many that seem like clarifications or enhancements of 1e rules - and I'm liking them. Though don't get me wrong, I'm not a fanboy yet, but I do like a lot of what I'm seeing.]
Will it be successful? Compared to most game out there, certainly. Slap D&D on the cover of just about anything and you'll have mobs of people buying it, and financial success is about the limit of success it'll become.
4th edition was successful by that measure. They sold a lot of books.
I looked at the rpg event list of a convention last weekend and of the 3 days of events, I saw just one D&D game. One.
There were multiple pathfinder games, multiple C&C games, and a spattering of other older and newer games. In regards to popularity, D&D barely had a presence. I'm not sure I'd measure that as success.
I liked D&D for a long time, and to some degree I still do. I don't know how many people feel the way I do, maybe just a few and maybe a large number, but I have given up on D&D under the helm of WotC at this point. They are catering to a different sort of gamer I suppose, and they just don't seem to "get it" with regards to what made the older editions (flaws and all) more viscerally fun than the newer editions.
This edition isn't going to bring people like me back into the fold, but it was a noble effort.
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Brimleydower wrote:
My primary concern is D&D's visibility, whether as a tabletop RPG or as an intellectual property. People like us are talking about 5e, and some of us are ready to buy in (to one degree or another), but in the wider world, D&D has lost most of its cachet and nearly all of its visiblity. Most people have no idea what has or hasn't happened with D&D for a very long time.
Despite the manifold choices out there, especially with indie games having come into their own, tabletop RPGs are a niche hobby - we can argue about how niche, but there it is. Strike one. D&D's lack of success in Hollywood and lack of presence on TV don't help matters at all, especially for youngsters who might get into D&D via non-tabletop exposure. (Compare the success of the recent Batman and Iron Man trilogies, and their affect on DC and Marvel Comics' IP.) Strike two. All potential audiences for all potential media are highly fragmented when compared with their counterparts even ten years ago - it's simply harder to get a large (i.e. dedicated long-term) audience for anything these days. Strike three.
On the flipside, there is a geek golden age in process. People my age (late 30s to early 50s) are attempting to relive their youths and, as important, to share them with their own kids and grandkids. D&D shows up on Community or Big Bang Theory or, we hope, Wil Wheaton's upcoming RPG show (the promised companion to Tabletop). There are tons of blogs, podcasts, Facebook pages, forums, etc. run and visited by geeks of all ages and varieties. The Internet has also made games, toys, minis, movies, etc. more available than ever for those with the means and the wherewithal. There may well have been no better time to be a fan of pop culture than the last five to ten years (and counting).
My bottom line is that unless and until D&D penetrates the popular consciousness as thoroughly as it did in the 1980s, 5e is going to struggle to regain the game's historical footing. We can blame Pathfinder or disgruntled 4e fans or MMOs or whatever, but the problem is actually systemic and much more than a factionalization of D&D's base. To be clear, we don't need a 1980s rehash of D&D, we need the equivalent in a totally flat, totally wired world - especially when $50 for a game book is hard for many folks to manage without cutting groceries or gas or medical care, never mind whether it's a fair going rate given production costs, etc.
WotC bought a D&D that was seriously damaged by mismanagement and revived it to some extent - 3e and 4e sold well for certain periods of time - but there's a long way to go before we reach the game's all-time visibility pinnacle again. I hope that R&D's current transmedia strategy pans out and that 5e is crucial to the brand's resurgence. But it's much too early to tell, especially regarding how well 5e will do in the tabletop RPG space. I think 5e is as good as any version I've seen since I started playing D&D 33+ years ago - it's not perfect, nor was any other version - but I don't know that 5e's being good is enough, either for tabletop roleplayers or for the brand itself.
Mistwell wrote:
For the most part 5th looks reaaly good too me. A few gripes I have is weapons are to vanilla and armor names really bug me. Hopefully the phb or the dmg has mods for those, if not Ill do it myself(really hoping to see special nonmagic versions like masterwork,mitheral, darkwood and etc.). Saving throws have me worried but Im not going to make a final decision until after at least a few sessions. If those dont pan out, Ill change it over to ref/for/will. I wish they had left skills free to use with different stats but thats an easy fix. Other than that the game looks fast and fun.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Report from my local store: They sold out in 3 days. That was not a big order by any means [I think they had 20 copies], and did include the preorders, but they are expecting several more shipments [and obviously to sell]. I'd rate this at way below the level to be a big success, but it looks for a fair success at least.
DavidArgall wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Uchawi wrote:
Nicodaudel wrote:
hunterian7 wrote:
Hard to say. Short term I think they will be fine and D&D anything with the name sla[pped on well sell well. If I lived in the USA and could get the starter set for $13 Amazon or $20 retail the buy in price is cheap as so to speak. Over here is is $23 Amazon price and $28 retail.
Still digesting the rules and have only really glanced at the races and classes in the PDF. The races have gone down well with some of my players and on a personal level I like mthe Cleric and Rogue classes in the Basic PDF. I'll know more tomorrow night when I can talk about it with the other AD&D/Pathfinder player in tomorrow nights game. Also wanting to run a game on the 20th July to at least try it.
The launch seems somewhat positive as well compared to the 4E roll out as even the naysayers are more like meh as opposed to burn it with fire. One problem there though is the boards are a lot more quiet than they were in 2001/2002 so I do not think it will match 3rd ed levels of impact anytime soon. Only hard core fanboys are going to be calling it a smash hit/flop out the gate though.
D&D is never going to get back to 1e sales levels. If that is your hope then forget it. Short of a worldwide nuclear war I don't see pen and paper getting that market penetration ever again.
One thing they have done is alienate the strongly opinionated on both ends of the spectrum. It's too 4e or it's not enough. I think they erred not going all the way old school if that was their plan. They lost a bunch of people they could have easily gotten without losing anyone they will ultimately get.
I think fewer people will reflexively buy this time so if sales are strong early on that is probably a good sign.
I'm a believer that the "radicals" hold a lot of sway over the.moderates. I also believe these boards and others are not as off as many think. I'm seeing far more acceptance of 5e even here than I did 4e. So that too is a good sign.
4e was my favorite D&D, although I liked them all, and many other games, over decades.
A good point is that this won't do TSR-level 'success' as video games own gaming now. Board and card games have even eclipsed TTRPGs in every way, and I doubt that's ever going to change.
I think it's an ok edition. It doesn't shake anything up, which is good and bad, IMO. It really boils down to (for me) how many other people like it. If it's all I can easily play because its what everyone is playing, I'll be playing it. I want to actually do some playing with this edition. I DMed 4e 95% of the time; and still do.
I also need to see what they do with all the oddball stuff I want in a D&D experience (like 2e, 3e, and 4e). Dark Sun, Plane Scape, Spelljammer, Crazy races, classes, customization options...Psionics...
None of that is going to be available for a year or more, if ever. Don't get me wrong; there is an appeal to a basic FR magic items are rare as hell way of playing I do want to try again, but that's just not my main thing.
Some TTRPGs have better rulesets than D&D, I think...But most others (aside from PF) suffer from low budgets, lack of player/LGS support, and unexceptional art. So, D&D always has and will always be the benchmark.
I don't think it will fail, but it's not some magic 'One game to rule them all' thing, nor is it going to 'make' PF players leave PF. It's also not going to make many 4e players leave 4e. It's not going to stop TTRPG rulebook piracy, either.
Emerikol. wrote:
moes1980 wrote:
Nicodaudel wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
hunterian7 wrote:
Now that we have gotten the gist of the rules, how successful do you think the game will be?
We havent got the gist of the rules - just the gist of the basic rules which present only the minimal core of the mid-range default option.
Is it what you expected?
Yes - as far as it goes so far.
Did they deliver on what they promised?
So many people have already posted NO to this - and then complained about the lack of promised modularity. This is utterly ridiculous - everyone who has been paying the slightest attention knows the modularity was never intended to be in the Basic Rules at this early stage.
So this is a question you've asked way too early...
Is it looking like the edition they hoped for?
Too early to answer...
Does it look like it will go down in flames?
Too early to answer...
Is it just a "meh" edition? ( been hearing a lot of this one).
Too early to answer...
What do you think?
Too early to answer... and I know a lot about the problems with bias in questions for surveys and opinion polls, it's been part of my job for years.
These questions are almost all begative bias and thus will attract those with a pre-emptively negative opinion, and those who wanted to hate it regardless.
So it serves no useful purpose.
For me, it's looking to be a bit like what I wanted back in August 2000, but we'll see.
Caliburn101. wrote:
I think it will do well but there's 2 major problems.
1. Pathfinder. I think a lot of people shifted over to that and now brand-loyal to Pathfinder.
2. There's less and less young people playing tabletop RPGs or even board games. (I guess they are playing computer games). I think the number of players of pen and paper RPGs isn't going to grow because I think the vast majority of players are older players so the player base is just remaining static.
Chimpy20 wrote:
If not for the HD healing system not based on magic and the daily recovery, and the fighter having self healing and being full of DS mechanics, this game would be a great game for me. Just not sure all that is worth overcoming. I'm still just in standby waiting on what they do in the DMG.
I'm beginning to realize the reason they went with daily recovery is that it makes balancing everything else a lot easier. That is a gamist reason of course but I believe that is why they've clung tenaciously to it as their default setting.
Like many have said, long-term success will depend on support and quality adventures.
What I find interesting is that the basic set intro has inspired some 1e, 2e players and older forum members who have dropped out for quite a while, to come back. It has also promped a number of 3.5/Pathfinder players to give it a try, and a few 4e players have even declared that they see hope. If this version draws 25% to 50% from these audiences, and it captures the people who like to play the current version regardless, it seems like 5e will be successful.
Let's see what happens.
Emerikol. wrote:
I think it has real potential to bring new people into the game so on that note I think it will be successful. I don't buy the line that a 'lethal' game turns people off. The first time I played the DM put a dragon at the end of the adventure and we died. The second time we played S1. The third time we played the DM killed us all off. We all kept playing because it was fun.
Sorry if I am interrupting anything. I havent read the entire thread and I am responding to the OP:
I think 5e success depends ENTIRELY on how well supported it is with adventures. The finer points of the rules only concerns us forum-goers and we are a tiny minority. I am petsonally convinced tha PF success has everything to do with their campaigns and adventures, and very little to do with the actual system.
No matter what it will sell very well at start and spark a surge of interest in ttrpgs just by being D&D. The pivotal time period is year 2-3 imo. What happens there will determine the fate of this edition.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
It's going to crush (the forum's) expectations.
Evidence, you ask? There wasntt a single starter set available in the city of Seattle by the end of the weekend. My local comic shop ordered 20 of them and they all sold out before closing time on the 1st day.
Point the 2nd: They're tapping into the market of people who buy the books for the fiction. Oh, I know, here on the forums there's all this 'gimme crunch only, bro' talk, but there's a generation that grew up reading the Ecology section of the Monster's Manual and now they have IT jobs and loads of disposable income. If the quality is there, and judging by the Starter Set, it is, they'll be raking the cash in for a while now.
JonWake wrote:
We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.
Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
I'm jealous if you have a game store running 4E, Pathfinder or D&DN.
I can`t speak to a gaming store. All I know is what I have been doing with groups. I was in a 4e group that fell apart. Our personalities were not a good match. Then I found the gaming group I play with now. I love playing with these guys. We started out with a 4e game. Then, I started DMing a WFRPG 3e game for a few of them, and the main DM started running a Pathfinder game (which, despite the fact that I love playing with the people, I could not bring myself to join due to how much I dislike Pathfinder). On the side, that DM also runs some Shadowrun 5e games (which I play in). He is getting ready to wrap up his Pathfinder game. It sounds like he will start running a D&D 5th game some time in the new year. I plan to play in that game when he does. I would also like to DM some D&D 5th. So, insofar as my anecdotal experience is concerned, it seems to be off to a good start. But then, it might be too early to tell. The only person who is super familiar with 5th is me. I love it. The rest seem interested to try it.
I honestly have no clue. I get told all the time by people on the Internet that the opinion of people on the Internet don't matter, compared to the people in the real world. But for the life of me, I can't find people IRL who are interested in running 5ed. Over the next year, perhaps some interest will pop up at stores and conventions. But for now, I'm seeing more interest in Iron Kingdoms and RIFTS.
Alter_Boy wrote:
hunterian7 wrote:
I feel that people who are already playing pen and paper RPG's will at least have a passing interest in this new edition. Some of these players will stick with it and some of them won't; it'll more or less reach a nothing lost nothing gained equilibrium.
It's also interesting to think about what new players may come to the table. The whole fantasy genre seems to be much more in the mainstream right now, much like it's popularity in the late 70s. I think this may make it a great time for a new DnD and table top gaming in general. I for one am all for it!
Chakravant wrote:
alienux wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Lochness_Hamster wrote:
The early response has been really positive in my gaming circles. Purely anecdotal, but I think it will do quite well.
So I show up to our weekly Pathfinder campaign at the FLGS last night, as usual. We are all chatting and waiting for the DM (hardcore PFS guy) to show up. He arrives and tells us--with much joy and excitement in his voice--that the 5e Starter came in and he wants to run it. But only up to 5 players (since that's the pregen count). As we have a large-ish group anyway, we split up and half of us went to play 5e, while another player stepped in to keep Pathfinder going for the rest. The half that didn't get to play 5e have already indicated they want next crack at it. So I'll likely run it for the other half in a few weeks to stagger it a bit.
True story. Take it for the anecdote it is. But take it none-the-less.
D&D is the brand name of roleplaying games, it will be a huge success compared to other publishers for the first year or two. I think after that it will depend on many factors, one of the big ones is an OGL and how easy it is for 3rd party companies to publish compatible products. The 4e and DDI were set up you saw very little 3rd party support if they move towards the way it was with3rd edition I think it will help keep them top dog in sales after the first year.
Now will the numbers be enough to make Hasbro happy with the product, I have not a clue. They could out sell Pathfinder and every other rpg out there combined and might not meet the expectations of the suits that don't know a d20 from hole in the ground.
Paraxis wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Yes, I heard D&D has been moved to a peripheral product line (next to Hasbro's big boys, it definitely is), which to me sounds like good news.
alienux wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
My store continues to report very good sales on their 2nd shipment.
An interesting development via Mike Mearls's Twitter feed. It may not mean anything in the long term, but it looks like Amazon is doing well with its discounted pre-order for the Starter Set . . .
@mikemearls : After spending a while bouncing around 50 or so, the Starter Set shot up to #8 at amazon. Didn't expect that.
Hi folks.
I'm going to temporarily shut down this thread to see if I can salvage it. While you're waiting for it to open back up, here's a little light reading from our host, Trevor.
"3. This is a forum for fans and prospective new players of the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons. Disparaging the edition or the game, or comparing it to other editions or other games are not acceptable topics of conversation in these forums. "
Just to clarify, that means you should not be bringing up any other edition nor any other game in this sub forum. Period.
Cheers,
Monica
Hi folks,
The thread is open again now. Please keep Trevor's guidelines in mind when posting. And of course the Code of Conduct still applies as well. Please have polite, respectful discussions with each other.
Thanks,
Monica
Okay, how successful will D&D 5th Edition be?
This edition should have an easier time now that Hasbro has reputed droped the policy on Core Brands, lightening the pressure on D&D to do really, really well. It has more time to go and do well under its own terms than an arbitrary restriction. Plus WotC has reportedly renegotiated its video game licence, likely allowing that to generate more money for the brand. And they're trying to get a new movie going. Plus the D&D team has the board games and other licenced products generating funds for the brand. So the brand is making cash even without the Tabletop RPG.
However, the D&D team does seem to be really understaffed. Just getting out the new edition and publishing four products over five months seems to be taxing the staff so much that they needed to outsource the adventures and end the online magazines. I doubt that they have enough time to work on new board games. And many of the board games have vanished from the public eye. I don't see Wrath of Ashadalon or Conquest of Nerath any more, just Lords of Waterdeep. And they haven't tried to do bring back any other games as evergreen products, like Three-Dragon Ante. So far the video games have been... mixed and likely lack a long term benefit to the brand. And the movie is caught in legal limbo, and the success of movie adaptations seldom translates to success for the adapted media as is seen by the continued struggling of the comic industry.
So a lot of the pressure remains on the TRPG.
D&D5 will undoubtely be a hit. It seems very popular to the majority of people on the forums, and hopefully the modularity will win even more people over to the system. So being a short term success is guaranteed. There might not be enough sales from the Starter Set alone (and the 1-3 weeks of PHB sales) to hit the top of the ICv2 Summer sales chart, although D&D will undoubtely place. Hitting #1 in the Fall and Winter charts is gauranteed. After that things get foggier, as that's when sustainability kicks in.
As history has shown, the game needs to be sustainable on the long term to succeed. There are many games (that I will not name) that appeared briefly on the ICv2 chart, sold well, won an ENnie or two, and then vanished.
Two things are needed to make D&D5 a success: regular sales of key books and regular sales of new books.
The latter is big and we don't know much about that, because WotC hasn't revealed anything about their plans for future books. All they've said is that they want to focus on stories and adventures. This might mean splatbooks get pushed to the wayside in favour of DM support material like Manual of the Planes or environment books like Underdark. Or it could be they launch a small accessory splatbook/campaign book and pair that with adventure modules. This wouldn't be too hard for some big releases. They could do an Underdark storyline and pair that with a Dungoneer's Survival Guide that has dungeon delving subclasses, backgrounds, and feats. So it's usable for any game but really ties into the published adventure and that season of organized play. Simmilarly they could do an overland travel sandbox campaign or exploration of a jungle/lost land and pair that with a Wilderness Survial Guide, and an East-Meets-West "Shogun" adventure in Kara-Tur paired with Oriental Adventures, or even a Pirates of the Moonsea themed adventure and a book on underwater rules & combat, pirates, ship-to-ship combat, sailing, etc.
The hard thing will be encouraging regular sales of key books. WotC has not been good at this, favouring a MtG style book-of-the-year and forgetting about the past catalogue. But book publishing, especially RPG book publishing, makes the most money when you can regularly sell the same book again and again and again. The first print run the publisher is paying off all the production costs, not just printing. There's art and editing and writing and development. But the second and third and fourth print runs just make more and more money. A higher percentage of each sale is direct profit.
This will be tricky due to D&D Basic. This is a fantastic idea, but it's also very possible to theoretically skip the PHB and buy accessories and run those with Basic D&D. And WotC needs to sell as many PHBs as possible again and again.
Focusing on subclasses and subraces from all the classes and not just Basic will help. It should be possible to buy the accessories and just use Basic, but there should be content and options that make it advantageous and desirable to buy the PHB as well. There's a fine line that needs to be walked.
I don't know if D&D 5th Edition will succeed, as they could still mess things up long-term and the edition could die an early death. But they have every opportunity of succeeding.
Content edited by Orc_Lolth.
I hope-think that 5e will be successful.
Whether it will sell enough copies of the books to cover the development costs, I have no idea. My guess, based on nothing whatsoever, is that it will break even within a year and after that it will start showing an overall profit. But we will never really know the figures anyway.
In terms of market penetration, I think we just have to wait and see. I hope it surpasses whatever targets WotC have set themselves because they have worked hard and worked smart to make the right product and deserve every success.
BoldItalic wrote:
Im hoping 5th will be successful. I dont care if its number 1 or whatever. I just hope they support it a little better than they did 4th and not rush everything into print. If they are going to do a electronic version they need to do it in a way that doesnt split their base again like ddi did.
DavidArgall wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
On the topic of content production, someone suggested some time ago that WotC should create the D&D version of the iTunes store. A platform for purchasing 5E content not produced by WotC, but approved (through an extremely easy process) by WotC. These would be sold in pdf format through this store - primarily profiting the writer of the product, but also giving a kickback to WotC for the platform and allowing them to collect on advertising for the platform.
If WotC truly wants to see 5E be profitable, this would be a fantastic option for them. It allows them to make money on licensing with minimal writing investment AND it encourages a strong fanbase by fostering sharing and creativity among the community. It will avoid bloat by not creating "official" products, but allow those who crave constant content to be sated. It will prevent potential players and writers from turning to more open gaming licenses, thus retaining players, while also drawing in new players through means beyond the core books.
In my opinion, this method (if done fairly and implemented flawlessly - yes, flawlessly) could be a major boon to the game and WotC.
On the other hand, I see little evidence that WotC intends to take such a route. Whether it is because they distrust content producers or because they prefer their own content (or anything else), I don't know. but, I admit, it would be out of character for them to take such a step.
Nevertheless, it seems to be a good option, in my opinion, and I hope they have, at least, considered it.
Lord Dreadman
We will know in half a year after the release I suppose 
My group will probably stay with Pathfinder or Castles & Crusades. Since I collect rulebooks (even for systems I never play) I will get me a set of 5E books anyway. From the little I have seen magic has been heavily nerfed (again), and that might turn many players away from it.
The_Jester wrote:
If you take a look at the multiple playtest releases there is a huge selection of monsters to take a look at. 
Tony_Vargas wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Overall so far it is looking like a kind of 'meh' edition to me. I like the general direction they headed in with it but there are still a handful of glaring problems I have with it. Long story short, I think it'll do about as well as 4th edition. Without some significant changes to a couple of their design choices I don't see it recapturing much of the audience D&D had before 4th edition and I don't see much of the newer 4th edition players making the conversion. I know everyone in the gaming groups I have been in the past few years has looked at the basic rules and all think the same thing I do. Promising start but none of us are willing to buy new books for a system we're going to have to make major house rules for right out of the gate. Maybe when the system gets a little more refined, adds a few more options, and introduces a few more optional rules/systems to incorporate.
D&D is highly profitable. It's just not a big gross sales product. They were making eleven million a year on 4e. Based on the books produced, I see that as a pretty good profit. The issue is that for Hasbro eleven million is a rounding error.
So 5e will make a profit regardless if it's a success or failure in the eyes of different people. D&D though does have expectations. If it sells like 4e, I believe wotc won't be happy. They will be profitable though.
Oh, and another possible source of income is films.
I know, I know. The D&D movies have been awful. However, with the LotR and Hobbit films doing so well, and the current production of an upcoming Warcraft movie, I think there's a sizeable audience for a well-made D&D movie.
JonWake wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Malcadon wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
I've removed content from this thread because Trolling, Baiting and Harassment are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
I think that the Pathfinder players are for themost part lost.
alienux wrote:
Content has been removed from this thread because Trolling & Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.
Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
Chakravant wrote:
If the rest of the game builds upon the basic rules we have rather than bloating them to oblivion at the games core, I see 5th edition as the future of Fantasy ttrpg's. I believe we will see a resurgance of lapsed fans embrace D&D once again. I saw a peculiar thing this last week: On Dragonsfoot.org ( the home of AD&D) there is a 33 page thread dedicated to the Starter box, and another for the basic Rules complete with pictures of gameplay with folks of all ages.(this is unheard of) The old school players are excited about the game thus far. Though many disliked 3e and never played 4e. they are liking D&D 5e. It's very akin to that of the D&D of TSR's age and plays like AD&D in many ways. The game is simple and elegant making it beginner friendly, the art is just awesome so far, turning away from dungeon punk and toward gritty realism, and the systems modular approach and fast and loose gameplay are all factors to attract new players and entice lapsed fans of "editions past" as well.
I also do not see the 3e. players who left the franchise during the edition wars as being married to P.F. at this point. They complain about it constantly on the Piazo site and it's beginning to bloat its way to the grave. True Story- Our D.M. was a pro p.f. G.M. owning every current hardback in print. We were in the middle of an adventure path when my copy of the Starter set was delivered. After one session playing 5e. we suspended the P.F. game indefinately, and are playing 5th ed. exclusively. I am an ad&d fan playing that version since the 1980's and prefering it over every other system, but I bought the Starter set because of wotc'sd good will shown to us fans by way of the Basic rules. This lead to me pre ordering the PHB because of how much I love this game already. I play tested it for 2 years, and even though I hadn't planned to buy it last year here I am. I think it's a damned good game. My entire group ranging from age 42 to age 11 love this game so far.
All of this speaks much of 5e.'s cross edition and cross generation appeal.
Marketing the brand is going to be very important and getting it into every Main stream Dept. Store chain and toy store and not just hobby shop is key to it's success. We should have comic books (done deal) video games, p.c. games,a new mmo, T shirts, coffee cups, action figures ( like He man bitd.) and a major motion picture that is of lotr quality. How about " The crystal Shard" as the first in the Icewind Dale series? D&D should be everywhere like it was in the 1980's. We need a Cartoon network show and a good quality live action TV Series. D&D is a Brand not just a game.
Will any of this happen? Only time will tell.
These are just my 
Here's the thing, The sidewalk prophets spewing gloom and doom have no magic 8 ball to tell them the future. The Sky isn't falling; so ignore Chicken Little. He's a vocal minority and my name's not "Turkey Lurkey", or "Henny Penny". Look on Enworld, RPG. Net, Youtube, Hell man- read the already huge number of reviews on Amazon.com who have already purchased the Starter box and are raving about it. D&D going to be HUGE. 
Brightmantle wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Here's the other thread on th Basic Rules . http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=66747
The other thread is 30 pages- my mistake.
EldradWolfsbane wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
I think success depends on what kind optional rules the game will introduce and support. At the moment, I'm reading a lot of complaints about healing surges (hit dice) and long rests. There are also many people who are not pleased with the return of caster supremacy.
For me it's a "meh" edition, but I think that's what he deisgners were going for.
I think they've done the best game D&D's ever been. I think they've obsoleted every previous version of the game, including Pathfinder, except Fourth, and Fourth is only spared that judgement by the fact that it's as odd a beast as it is. I think that not only has this edition achieved the vast bulk of the goals set forth in its own design, it achieves goals D&D has struggled mightly with since Gygax and Arneson first let dice hit tables. I think that, if it's not as successful as the size of the market allows - if it doesn't grow the market - we as a hobby don't understand how our hobby works well enough to be worth the effort these designers put into it.
This is, after a year spent by my family testing it, after a session and a lot of brainstorming with the final rules, the D&D I've imagined since my first time holding the This Is Not AD&D Third Edition player's handbook in my hand. It's glorious.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Report on the L.A. Labor Day sign-ups.
5e: 239
Other game: 406
Now sign-ups have their flaws as indicators. Some players sign up in advance even with no intention of actually playing, and others just show up at the door with no advance warning at all.
And these are early. Most of these players have signed up without seeing the PH. So their opinion of the game a month from now can be wildly different. And we can't be sure of the direction. A lot may be casual lookers who will vanish quickly. But there may also be a lot who are ready to dive into the game, but just haven't heard about it getting started up.
Still, the overall figures seem to say "success" compared to other games in the field, but not compared to the days before 4th ed.
At first, reading through the PHB... as a player who has experience almost exclusively with Pathfinder... everything I loved about PF turned to ashes in my mouth.
But after playtesting a bit I think that in order to truly capture diehard 3.5E and PF fans the modular expansions to the rules from the DMG and other supplements will have to add some depth to combat.
Prone, as a condition, is a great example of this.
For me, 5e is perfect. It is exactly what I wanted and I can't get enough of it.
DavidArgall wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
kev777 wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Rottle wrote:
Rottle wrote:
It's been shown time and time again that people /think/ that a perfect game system will draw players, but it simply isn't true. People come to game systems because:
a) its being run by a DM - so, cultivating GMs at conventions and online is crucial
b) it is being sold/advertised (at least) in their circles
c) the company continues to support production (this is where FFG managed to take WFRP3, for example, from #1 in sales and abandon it to the scrap heap by simply slowing production in favor of a better seller (SW)).
d) there are plenty of pre-printed scenario paths to continue campaigns
D&D has staying power. Whether or not people will flee their othe game systems to come here is doubtful. D&D is D&D. People play other games because they're not D&D.
That said, you're not going to pull in gamers from any other system (besides Pathfinder), simply because those players have "left" D&D.
D&D is not a generic roleplaying system and doesn't cater to all styles of players.
"Leaving D&D" is another topic however, which involves abandoning the brand (no matter the edition) for a different style of play. D&D has committed to a "dungeon crawl" style of play for 5+ editions now. Without A-D (above) being true, you're simply not going to grow.
Let's just hope that HASBRO doesn't pull a FantasyFlightGames approach...
Emirikol wrote:
The fact that D&D isn't a generic roleplaying system isn't something I would champion as a positive.
Chakravant wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
I don't think D&D could have survived without being a non-generic game system (and other systems could not have succeeded if D&D was too generic). I can appreciate that people want to use D&D for differen't themes and I wish them luck with that. I intend to use it for Lankhmar, but will need to support D&D's weakness that is "any play outside of the dungeon."
I tried 4e the same way, in the Warhammer world. It was a disastrous failure because the system was so massive. I'm optimistic that this simpler, basic system, should be easier to shoehorn. 4e was D&D-only. 5e appears a bit more flexible.
Emirikol wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Rottle wrote:
D&D 5
An RPG that supports a dungeon crawl, heavy combat style of play. The addition of a clean, "balanced" skill system that remains non-escalatory over the first 10 levels of play allows _all_ PC classes to attempt things other than combat.
If they want to be THE main rival of PFRPG and thus, be a complete succeed they definetly should put effort on settings, modules and campaigns.
Not just Forgotten Realms, they must exploit the D&D multiverse and create quality products that won't "taste the same".
And keep on with products that will tempt the DMs to buy them because they can feel they need them, like the cards that will come, or tokens, even small pawns like the old boxed set ones (I consider the Paizo ones huge and that is why I didn't purchase them) .
Give the people what they want, the people will tell you to shut up and take the money.
The rival is hard and earned. With PF you have all the options in accessories. Metallic figures, the "bones" series, pawns, effect/face/item/critical/whatever card decks, maps and maps, customized die per adventure paths, releasing those APs not in just one book but in several so they are easier to handle and will keep active players craving for the next one... things like that keep the "tension" and is not just another core product you buy may try and forget. Even if roleplaying is meant to be just books, imagination, dice and having fun; extra content (specially campaigns/settings/adventures) I think makes the money.
(personal spam... PLANESCAPE, mdfkrs!)
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
If anybody of the D&D staff actually reads this forum, this entry I just read on a blog is very important:
http://millionwordman.blogspot.be/2014/07/the-beginners-choice-d-next-or.html
About how things are done comparing both starters.I have my D&D5E starter coming to me, but I already own PF (not box but cores) and I must point out that PF Bestiary has a pic for every of the monsters. And I expect the same for the MM. Crystal clear :P everybody has imagination, but all of us love good art.
However, in that blog players did not play the full adventure on the boxes, which is I think the most important thing, to have an interesting adventure that will make the new players crave for more and more. Personally I am decided to change to D&D5E but still being critical on it.
No idea if it will be a success, but it already is a huge success with my players.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Rottle wrote:
How do you measure success?
It's certainly not Icv2, though people seem to quote them all the time for success issues.
The guys who work at both Paizo and WOTC agreed, together, during a convention panel, that Icv2 is not a good way to measure success.
Here is why:
Reason #1: It only measures retail store sales, and only retail store sales for those who report to Icv2. It does not measure big box stores like Amazon and Barnes and Noble, nor Walmart and Target and Toys R Us, nor digital sales of PDFs, nor digital tool sales, nor any larger brand sales. Both Paizo and WOTC reps agreed it really was not pulling from a representative enough number of sources to draw conclusions to the larger marketplace.
Reason #2 It measures revenue, not profit margin. If a company sells tons of paperback modules at a low price but a huge profit margin, they still rank lower than a company selling big expensive hardback books at a razor thin profit margin.
Reason #3: Because of the way Icv2 reports their information, it is highly influenced by the publication dates of a companies biggest products, and poorly measures stable sales from a company. Big blips have more impact than strong and steady recurring sales.
Here is more on that later point. Icv2 reports for a 3-month period of time, and is not an ongoing cumulative measurement. It also does not report number of books sold, just the overal rank of sales for that quarter.
So let's say we're looking at three companies, A, B, and C, and this is what they put out for the quarters of the year:
Company A Quarter 1: 50,000 books sold Rank #1
Company B Quarter 1: 21,000 books sold Rank #2
Company C Quarter 1: 20,000 books sold Rank #3
Company A Quarter 2: 21,000 books sold Rank #2
Copany B Quarter 2: 22,000 books sold Rank #1
Company C Quarter 2: 20,000 books sold Rank #3
Company A Quarter 3: 19,000 books sold Rank #3
Copany B Quarter 3: 21,000 books sold Rank #1
Company C Quarter 3: 20,000 books sold Rank #3
Company A Quarter 4: 21,000 books sold Rank #1
Copany B Quarter 4: 15,000 books sold Rank #3
Company C Quarter 4: 20,000 books sold Rank #2
Company A Total Books Sold This Year: 111,000
Copany B Total Books Sold This Year: 79,000
Company C Total Books Sold This Year: 80,000
Company A Rankings: 1, 2, 3, 1
Company B Rankings: 2, 1, 1, 3
Comapny C Rankings 3, 3, 3, 2
So by this measurement used by Icv2, it looks like company A and Company B do about the same, and company C is clearly below both of them. But the reality is, Company A sold a lot more than both B and C, and Company C actually sold more books than Company B (and had the most stable sales and cash flow of all three companies), with Company B actually selling the least books of the three (though looking like they tied to sell the most books). There is no way to determine this however by using the Icv2 report.
This is why both Paizo and WOTC don't use the Icv2 data as something really important to them, and why us fans should not either. It's not measuring a representative sample anymore of the marketplace (though it used to, before big box stores and digital were so important), and it's not reporting the data needed to really know what a ranking even means (profit, or number of products sold).
Throvin wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
To me its like the old D6 games. You had D6 Star Wars and then you had other D6 games I did not play just Star Wars.
d20 is not D&D as well its not D&D. The retrroclones and Pathfinder are a bit murkier though as they are emulating D&D not just using d20 mechanics for a totally different genre. And some of those clones the apple does not fall far form the tree either. So if it is all but D&D in name its D&D to me or can act as a decent sub, sharing the same mechanics not so much unless it is a clone I suppose.
I think to be a strong competitor to Pathfinder, WotC need to play to the aspects of D&D that Pathfinder doesn't have - and to me that is the settings, such as Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft and so on. I think excellent adventure paths (and more than just one) for these settings would draw a lot of players to D&D from PF.
Regardless of setting, WotC need to start getting superb adventures published fast.
At present the game is very much a throwback to a style of play I rejected in the mid ninties, so it hold very little vaule to me. It feels like meh, blah edition, best suited for the fantasy protracted land war in asia style of play.
I have 4th if I chose to play that, or my current system 13th age which is free to play (although I did buy the books anyway 
). In fact at this point I would chose 3.5 E6, over 5E (I will just pass on pathfinder though, because it fixes nothing from 3E and in some cases make things worse).
This is unfourtante as although I dig 13th age right now there is not a lot of content for it and it does not support tactical combat. Therefore I had hoped that 5E would have some intrest or vaule to me, but currently there is just no reason for me to buy any 5E product. I am holding out some hope that the release of the DMG will reveal great depth, flexibility and elegant design within the system that at present seems to be undetecable to the naked eye.
However my thought about the delay of the DMG is that the system designers are still hoping against hope that they can get the system math working before release.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
joeburgos wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Another piece of evidence? to consider: I have had persistent trouble getting onto this site of late. This could be due to heavy traffic, and heavy interest in 5e. However, WOTC has less than a perfect record where the internet, etc is concerned, and the idea they have picked up some virus [and called it a feature] is not to be dismissed.
I hope it is a success, but for a different reason. I hope success causes enough irritation for someone to actually develop something new and refreshing. With OGL and the onset of Pathfinder, all we are getting these days is more of the same thing. But one thing D&D has done successfully in the past is release content, but I have my doubts if WOTC can match old glory. It appears Paizo has taken that away, so I hope they create a new system that is not constrained by D&D. As it stands now, I get nothing out of 5E that wasn't availabe in 2E. All 5E has done is change the mechanics or numbers game, but the class synergy has not changed in relation to martial and caster classes. All it offers is a veneer.
Uchawi wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
(Oh, if you want to see what I was up to at GenCon I'm @DnDJester on Twitter and did a lot with the hashtag #GoblinHorde. Check out my pics.)
As a DM I do not see it being successful because the first thing out of my player's mouths was "$50.00 I can't afford that 3.5 is good enough for us". It is financial and not rule based that will show if this edition is successful. Either A the get jobs or B get paid more at the jobs they have then the books should fly off the shelves. The players handbook copies at the Wizard preferred stores in my area are still sitting there along with the starter sets. They haven't been moving.
Mistwell wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
kev777 wrote:
It is possible that no new game with significant R&D costs will be able to compete with preexisting, cheaper alternatives. That could easily be true, and I expect we'll know for sure within a couple of years.
If that's the case, though, I'll be sad, because it means the art of game design will be limited by the basic chassis of these preexisting systems - chassis that started showing their rust well before 4e released.
The_Jester wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
D&D, we have been living separate lives for ten years now. Our relation had grown too complicated, you were always more demanding with me, new feats, new spells, new classes, always more for you and less for me. We had to break, I couldn't put up with all this crazyness.
But now I see you and you look so good, just like I remembered you. I'm back baby!
Yep, I think it will have success, the old faithfuls will all be coming back.
Mistwell wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
I knew you guys would throw Amazon at me but the players I play with support the brick and morter stores. They think that the price is way too high and are sticking with 3.5. They are willing to incorporate things they like from 5th edition into the game but are not going to totally convert. I am hoping to play 5th ed in the encounters and expedition games at some of the stores near me.
Uchawi wrote:
if you shop at amazon it's under $30.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
blake_marlowe wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
ishorn quoth:we need to support local game stores or they will not be around much longer.
http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-books-Amazon/zgbs/books/
PH hits #1
DavidArgall wrote:
Down to 2 now.
Plaguescarred wrote:
With the Player's Handbook #01 overall best seller on Amazon its pretty good start #CongratsWotCTeam
@mikemearls We did it! The Player's Handbook has hit #1 overall at Amazon. HUGE thanks to all the players and DMs out there. pic.twitter.com/K16BICVNEO
Interesting to see the books it's beating. Overcoming strong competition there, WotC.
Bluenose wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
it will be system #1 at my house.
and GOD DAMN i'm getting sick and tired of this obsessive compulsion to somehow
express EVERYTHING that is, and a bunch'a **** that isn't in monetary value!
what is the point? is this the only kind of value that you we recognise anymore?
are we all so mentally subjugated that you cannot form an opinion unless a few hundred people express it first?
how does this thread not embody the exact opposite of what we try to achieve trough gaming?
DaveyJones6913 wrote:
Ishorn wrote:
Dooflegna wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Dooflegna wrote:
I've been to other stores that don't stock Pathfinder. What does that say?
Haterz gon' hate. Some haterz happen to also be FLGS owners. That's all.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Seems to be selling well around here, and is being positively received by the people I know. Nova Scotia has a pretty decent gaming culture (we recently had HalCON, in fact) and haven't heard too much negativity with regards to it.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Chakravant wrote:
I'd argue that in 2014, Seattle is a gaming Peoria. Gamers are a disproportionately large percentage of the population in one of the fastest growing cities in the US, both in population and economically. FLGS in Seattle have booths at large conventions across the country (including GenCon), and do brisk business there. Seattle is a current mecca of free capital of the kind prospective customers need to have to invest heavily in any IP.
Which is why I follow Seattle FLGS trends, and why AoB's information interests me. Seattle is a gaming canary in a coal mine.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
I work in Dublin and I received my copy today from the FLGS and they weren't flying off the shelf. The guy only ordered who ever sent them a message on Facebook.
Dublin is extremely Pathfinder and Warhammer heavy.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
I'm confused.
I live in the Seattle-Metro area, and I'm not noticing this 'We don't stock the PHB' BS. I've noticed a few of the shops I frequent have sold out of the PHB... But they HAD IT TO BEGIN WITH.
ak1287 wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
ak1287 wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
OGL by itself did not kill 4E. THe old saying you can lead a horse to water but can't force him to drink. The OGL was a pull effect, 4E was the push effect. Some figures for 4E were put on ENworld last week and IIRC an esitmation had 50-100k PHB sold for 4E compared with 500k for 3.0, 250-350k for 3.5 and 250k for PF. Not sure how rerliable that figure was but it would explain a lot about products been canceled, the short edition run and halving the release schedule 2 years in and canceling it 3.5 years in.
Wuzzard wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Here in the UK for the most part it's been getting a fantastic greenlight. Particularly on some homegrown messageboards.
In my group of 3.5 holdouts we're looking at a complete conversion to the new system, prior to that we were considering saying sod it lets go back to 2e. Two of the lads are taking their home groups over 100% so that's 15ish players all of whom will buy at least a players handbook but most are hardcore gamers so will probably buy as long as they keep liking what was sold them.
Rules of Play and the other store here in Cardiff ordered cautiously for the early release and were caught with their pants down so ordered big for the 19th and still couldn't keep the books on the shelf.
Now I don't know if that reflects a measure of success since it's only personal experience but from a gaming community thats been very meh about 3.5/4e and the knock offs for the last few years it finally seems like we're seeing some energy and excitement.
YMMV
I think 5e will do far better than 4e. I don't think it will restore D&D to the undisputed master of roleplaying that it held prior to 4e. Pathfinder will not go away and it has many loyal followers. I do think 5e feels a lot more like the D&D that many people are familiar with and liked. There are though differences at least for me.
The owner of my FLGS told me he sold 26 players handbooks (5e) in the first week, located in south central pennsylvania.
I haven't personally bought one yet but plan too probably next month when I can fit the purchase into my budget.
1eejit wrote:
Now down to 3rd on Amazon.
Went and picked up my reserve copy of the PHB (only 30 quid!) on Thursday at Orc's Nest in central London (UK), they had already sold out, wall of Pathfinder, 5 or so dusty 4th Ed books that have been languishing there.
DavidArgall wrote:
My players have their own wait lists of people looking to take their spot if they can't make it. That's how popular my games are at the moment. I'm sure it will die down before long. But I think it will do fine. People are receptive when I answer their questions about it (3.5 with casters toned down considerably, handful of 4th ed elements kind of in the game, BAB is added to skills not skill points, BAB is universal and starts at +2 and finishes at +6, 2nd ed magic items, feats have been supped up but aren't as frequent and cost an ability score bonus).
Our local gaming club went from 3 tables to 6 tables by having a D&D night with 3 of them 5th ed tables.
VeroMaestro wrote:
As a former 2nd, 3.X, 4th and PF player I CAN say there is more buzz around 5E than 4th when it was released. I toured the PF room @ GenCon (which blew away D&D's room BTW in size and decore) and almost fell down when I passed by the table with excerpts from upcoming PF products. All I can say to those still playing PF is I hope you like androids and cybernetics (not joking...100%). Sure you can make these rules optional but PF is already suffereing from option overload with all the races, classes etc available.
Player: "Hey...I want to play and android ninja warrior, ok?!"
DM ::head explodes::
Not to mention balance is and has always been a concern with 3.X ane d PF. I DO think 5E at least addressing some of the core issues 3.X and PF had with balance. Right now, after 15 hours of play at Gencon, the game feels pretty balanced at lower levels. This will probably change with splat books and more options in the future.
I'm a little worried Piazo may be making a desperate/sloppy play in response to 5E's release. And by all indications they don't need too because they are in a good spot.
VeroMaestro wrote:
I think after the early rush of new and shiny subsides, I expect 5E to claim about 40% of the D&D community. A plurailty, but not a majority. The other 60% will be split amongst people playing pre-3E/retroclones, Pathfinder/3.x, 4E, or 13th age. I expect that it won't be enough for WotC and there will be a significant "adjustment".
thecasualoblivion wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
caecafortuna wrote:
Making multiple editions would certainly be less suicidal than the current path 5e has chosen. The slow release methodology leads to the death of an edition sooner, not later. In fact, it kills the edition before a full release cycle is possible, almost by definition.
There's nothing wrong with being your own competition. In fact, in many arenas it can be a good thing. Take movies or soft drinks as examples. If Gaurdians and Avengers 2 are in direct competition, Marvel wins either way. You've just doubled down on your branding. You can't buy publicity like that. Same thing with Coca-Cola. If you're making your own competition, you've guaranteed your customer is buying your product.
This is the type of environment that would best support D&D. TSR's demise had nothing to do with selling to multiple audiences. TSR went out of business during the 2E era, once they started to support only a single product line. The line was amalgamated before WotC had control over D&D, and in fact WotC's first publications were 2E spaltbooks, ones that split the audience.
What you say is financial suicide is one of the ways WotC has become the success it has.
Chakravant wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
The OGL was a good thing because it got people saying "This is awesome! Everyone can make d20 product!"
The OGL was a bad thing because it got people saying "This is awesome! Everyone can make d20 product!"
No quality control leads to a glut of product, the majority of it subpar. To say nothing about the utter duds of the Mongoose Pocket Players' Guide (reprinting the SRD way before Paizo got any ideas) and the D20 Book of Erotic Fantasy (Insert Rolls Eye Smilie Here).
People love talking about the d20 Boom, but they don't wanna talk about the d20 Bust.
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Doesn't add up. WotC did their best to kill the OGL before Pathfinder existed. The GSL had a suicide pill to destroy the OGL. Has bro decided they didn't want the OGL long before 4th ed and created 4th ed in an attempt to kill the OGL and their business partners (Paizo wasn't competition at this stage). It backfired and they paid the consequences.
JohnLynch wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
thecasualoblivion wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
I think pathfinder would have failed had 4e been recognizable in terms of what had gone before. 5e now faces the trouble that it's seen as throwback, and the creations of 4e divided the community as to expectations of the game. If 4e had been more like saga, pathfinder would not have happened. The failure of the ogl, and the fact that paizo competes against hasbro with a system hasbro paid to develop is hasbro/wotc's own fault - they thought 4e was a step forward and probably did not consider they would need to re-imagine back to a 3.5E derivative.
Jbickley00 wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
I don't think it was boxed sets that los TSr money. Al Qadim for example made a small profit. One in particular was notorious for being sold at a loss and that was Planescape. In late 2nd ed they did try and go back towards generic D&D with things like the players option books to twweak that generic D&D, and adventures like the Night Below and Labyrinth of Madness.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
TSR could always order up new plates to be made. That didn't stop them from doing anything. Heck, just the fact that the printer was willing to print the run without being fully paid shows how much of a sure thing the reprints were sales wise.
Chakrum wrote:
Chakravant wrote:
What is the "touch stone" here that connects the above " off topic" TSR sales convo. with 5e and it's future in the TTRPG market? I don't get it. This looks like a Nerd p*****g contest to my untrained eye. Was there some sort of point? 
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Brightmantle wrote:
WotC just canned the KaiJudo line, which was popular enough to have its own TV show.
So WotC now has Magic: the Gathering, Avalon Hill (which they haven't done anything new with in half a decade), and D&D.
It does emphasise how high WotC sets the bar for success.
I admit I have tired of PF because of the bloat. Just creating a character has become a mess of looking through so many feats, traits, archetypes, and whatever to build the character concept you want that it gives me a headache. Though I do enjoy their Adventure Paths because of the creativity placed in them. I own most of the books and treasure them, but we now play with just the Core, and a few classes we like such as Alchemist and don't allow too many feats or anything out of other books. We may do a game soon of only classes from the Advanced Class Guide. But all of my group is liking the ability to create a character in 2 or 3 minutes and just playing without worrying about optimized builds and stuff like that.
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Ops. D&D PH has dropped to #7 on Amazon best seller list. That's still way ahead of Pathfinder, but...
DavidArgall wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
spelley wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
On Amazon, PH went down to 10, but rallied & is now #5.
Perhaps it is where I am living...
A nation wide bookstore had 10 starter sets. Nine have been returned due to non-sales. The PHB is special order only. The former shelf space that was given to WotC has been reduced by 95% and replaced with Pathfinder.
The local game and comic shops refuse to carry any WotC products with the exception of MtG cards. If you want something it has to be special ordered.
Pick up games at the game shops consist of Pathfinder, Tunnels and Trolls, other retro clones, Shadowrun and other occassional games.
draegen- Until 5e was released I couldn't find one wotc D&D pick up group in my home area. P.F. is huge here and 4e. languishes on the shelf which are full of the stock the FLGS owner bought when it came out. No one seems to play 3.5e., or 4e. at all. Now however things are different. Trent at "Bat Comics" in Chico Ca. ordered 12 5e. PHB's and they are gone, he has ordered more to fill the shelf. There was a 5e game in progress ( 6 people) at the table in the store when I bought my book. Now that said: I remember bitd in the 80's when D&D was huge. Back then pick up games were easy to find, and the only contention was UA or no. Everybody played AD&D. I wonder if the hobby will ever be what it once was? I would go play D&D, watch the D&D cartoon on Saturday, wearing my D&D t shirt, painting my official D&D mini's, and reading my Dragon Magazine in my room where the walls were filled with Jeff Easly and Larry Elmore D&D art. Back when Gary was the Head of TSR before p.o.g. came along and slashed and burned the company to the ground. I actually bought my books at Toys r us then. Oh how different things are today. 
Amazon report: Down to 10, but then back up to 5.
Brightmantle wrote:
The D&D cartoon here was on early Saturday morning on a show called What Now? which was a kids show. I liked it had no idea what D&D was though. That would wait another 10 years.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Our local FLGS group has nobody running 5E. The Pathfinder Society guys are sticking with that, and the 4E group is dabbling with 13th Age while otherwise sticking with 4E. A few individuals have expressed interest in 5E but it hasn't gone anywhere because of heavy resistance by everyone else.
Zardnaar wrote:
Our FLGS is actively recruiting more DMs (via email blasts) after their first 5e session brought in more than 60 people. Granted, I'm less than 25 miles from where TSR was born, but still... It's really cool to hear this kind of enthusiasm.
Hard to say how well 5E has gone down here.. Of the 2 groups I play with so far 6 PHB are here or on the way, 3 starter sets, and I think 3 copies of Hoard of the Dragon queen have been bought/ordered. Each group will have at least 3 and the AD&D/PF group will likely end up with 5-7 of them. All have downloaded D&D basic. As to the wider RPG community no idea.
Amazon report - Back up to 4th on the best seller list..
Also the big con in the L.A. area was about a tie on advance entries to events. [Strictly Pathfinder won 495-491, but between people who signed up and never showed and those who showed without signing up in advance, those are effectively the same.]
Player's Handbook has been bouncing arount a little, but is currently at #4 on the Amazon list.
PH was down to 8 last night, but has improved to 6 on the Amazon list.
Still at 6, tho it has moved around some.
#1 Hardback Nonfiction on Publisher's Weekly, #7 overall
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/nielsen/HardcoverNonfiction.html
So it's presumably selling decently through non-Amazon retailers too.
1eejit wrote:
The game D&D isn't fictional, it is a game which exists. These are the rules for that game.
If it was the Quidditch Rulebook it'd be in fiction.
xunvaldorl queried:
how did it make the nonfiction section?
DavidArgall wrote:
Maybe old news (from an interview with Jeremy Crawford at GenCon): The Starter Set is one of the best selling Starter Sets of D&D comparing back to the 80ies, and downloads of the Basic Rules are trailing ahead of the 175 000 participants of the playtest.
http://www.examiner.com/article/gen-con-2014-report-interview-with-d-d-5e-designer-jeremy-crawford-part-1
- Vargtass
blake_marlowe wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Jharii wrote:
Jharii is right. D&D is not creative writing. It is a rule set. The rules are real. You use those rules to create imaginary adventures which if written up would be creative writing.
The starter set could be more popular because it is unlike any other starter set. It has stuff that even an experienced DM could use and enjoy. That is not the norm for a starter set which has always been something experienced players would ignore unless specifically teaching new players.
Folks, we cannot possibly know whether D&D 5e is on the road to success until about two years out. The only way we could know now is if D&D has failed miserably and already heads would be rolling if that were the case. The game appears to be in the launch pattern of prior editions. 4e roared out of the gate. D&D basically does that guaranteed because of the collectors if nothing else. The real test of an edition and it's popularity is how well the support materials are selling two years out.
There is also another potential drag on the sales. The DMG has promised a game for the rest of us and many people are waiting for that book. Assuming the book succeeds in including us, there will likely be a surge in the sales of the other core books. I'm one of those people. If the DMG delivers I will likely buy the entire three books. If not I won't. I've never until this edition ever failed to buy D&D on the first day (except 1e and that was more me not knowing about it than not wanting it). So there may be a good sized group out there waiting. That group likely includes people from all different perspectives playstyle wise.
I am certain that 5e will do as well as 4e and probably better. Will it dethrone Pathfinder ultimately, who knows.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Jharii wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
1eejit wrote:
It's like you don't understand what the phrase "road to success" means.
1eejit wrote:
Jharii wrote:
The Player's Handbook is also #16 on USA today's best-selling books list.
EDIT: Just for comparison, a few other edition's Player's Handbook's peak positions on the same list in the past.
3.0: #45
3.5: #57
4.0 PHB 1: #47
4.0 PHB 2: #28
darius wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Is it what you expected? mostly
Did they deliver on what they promised? mostly
Is it looking like the edition they hoped for? mostly
Does it look like it will go down in flames? no
Is it just a "meh" edition? ( been hearing a lot of this one). yes, but if it was more affordable it would be better, at $50 per book, well it just isnt good enough. for that price tag, you needed to wow folks, I prefer my 4th ed simply because the cost to switch is just too great for too little.
Shasarak wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Jharii wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Guys, who cares if it is listed as fiction or non-fiction? One list has it listed as one, the other has it listed as the other, so...we have two bits of data. Why does it matter if you "win" this argument?
I guess when someone states something so patently ridiculous all my instincts say resist it. Even if some book store chain put them together it still doesn't make a game a work of fiction. A game is not a work of fiction no matter where you categorize it because words mean things. A work of fiction is a story with plot and characters. A game is not. Nothing more need be said.
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
I am not sure who is "right" but I am taking off points everytime someone mentions a "fallacy". 
I’ve removed content from this thread because Vulgarity is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
Inciting Edition Warring is also a violation.
You can read how to prevent edition wars here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28870729/
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Jharii wrote:
Jharii wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Again, I gotta ask, why do people care how it is categorized? What's at stake with this issue? Right now this looks like a debate over whether something is the color aqua or turquoise. Maybe I am missing something though - is there something meaningful about it being categorized as non-fiction versus fiction? Why is this issue getting such passionate replies?
Amazon best seller list shows PH dropping to 12, and then recovering to 9th [Which still seems to be its worst for this time of day].
EN reports latest sales:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1889-5E-s-Initial-Raw-Sales-Numbers-Stronger-Than-3E-s!#.VAiRUGIayK0
Mistwell wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Jharii wrote:
I learned the word "acrimonious" from this thread. Thanks DemoMonkey!
Amazon reports PH drifted down to 14 last night but recovered to 9th, only to start back again and is now at 10th.
DavidArgall wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Jharii wrote:
Being a complete skeptic during its development I have to say I'm very pleasantly surprised with the end result, in many ways the game of D&D has really found some roots in my gaming group who for the past few years since the release of 4e has become very jaded about the franchise. In large part I think the game has embraced the reason why we liked D&D in the past, fast and simple gamplay which makes the process of creating adventures fast and simple. But unlike past versions of D&D, it did so with coherent and streamlined rules that are easy to use to remember..
I personally was glad to see that the game included the expected, classic if you will, content. No races or classes where excluded like we saw with the initial release of 4e. I also like the fact that they got rid of the silly MMO like power structure of abilities and the overly focused and dreadfully slow over endulgance of tactical combat we saw in the last two editions.
If I have any beef with the game it's the oversimplification of skills, I think it's one part of character customization that I will miss.
I think it's a much better version of D&D then we have seen in the last 2 editions and certainly more streamlined and approachable then anything that has come before it. The DMG is going to be an important book I think. It's going to define this games flexibility and hopefully include some clarity about how modularity of the system will work, assuming that inclusiveness and flexibility are still the core design goals.
I think it's a good start and certainly already a great game in my opinion which has far exceeded my expectations and hopes for the franchise.
So, the original post was "How successful do you think 5e will be?"
Well, from our group's point of view we think it will be very successful. Our group's average age is 45 and we all played 1st, 2nd and 3.5 editions. We skipped 4e and all of us took a break from playing D&D. 5e seems to have brought us back again and the common thought is that everyone likes 5e a lot. Without getting into any crazy debate, it feels like D&D to us, at least how we like to remember it and has just the right amount of 3.5 and the d20 system in place to make the game run smooth.
We also like the current products being sold (PHB, Dragon Queen) and everyone is excited about the Monster Manual as well.
So, as far as success goes only time will tell, but we think it should do quite well, espcially with gamers older in age.
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/edition warring is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Amazon reports PH going down to 14, but now back up to 8th on the best seller list.
Jharii wrote:
Amazon has PH down to 12, its first morning figure out of the top 10.
DavidArgall wrote:
I actually wish they would have an official press event stating there will not be another edition for 10 years.
UnknownMourner wrote:
That was the 4e line too though. If sales don't support that philosophy his successors will be touting the ten year reign of 6e.
Emerikol. wrote:
Amazon has PH down to 19, having been as low as 25 last night. That's still way ahead of Pathfinder down in the thousands, but the glory days for book sales may be about over. Been quite a month tho.
Chakravant wrote:
Apparently D&D is down to 1/3rd the size of 2000. They may have their work cut out for them.
Other interesting bits.
TSR downfall 7:30-12:54ish
TSR 1996 produced 150 RPG (not all D&D) supplements (or planned to) 16:00
Their greatest competitor was not other RPGs but earlier editions of D&D (lol) 19:50
Sales figures for 2nd eds 1st year (280k), 300k 3.0 sold in 1 month, Mr Mearls gets a mention. 28:00 -30:00
$100 product concept 44:00
Size of D&D staff now and then, 1/3rd guesstimate 4700-48:30
Uphill struggle I suppose but Mearls is right about the 1 year mark IMHO.
Amazon report: Current, down to 31, a bit up from last night's 34, but well down from yesterday's 19. We may have less that a week left in the top 100.
I think they captured the middle. The question is how big the opposing extremes are. With just the slightest bit of consideration they could have kept the middle and captured all the grognards. I think capturing the middle along with the other extreme would have been more challenging. Instead they basically hacked off both ends of the spectrum and that cost them sales.
Most of their design principles are the kinds of things that make everyone happy when done right. The issues that really matter are those that have long divided this community. They needed to really choose a side. They'd have kept the middle either way. The middle are like the political moderates. Not very passionate along for the ride kind of people.
Of course if I was going to stick with the 4e superfan market audience, I'd have just made a 4.5 because that game made them pretty happy. They could of course have cleaned up all the math and improved the monster stats. Maybe bumped a few things that might have worked. That approach would have lost you all the old schoolers but it would have been a strategy.
As an added afterthought, the release of the DMG may spark PHB sales. Some people like me are probably still waiting to see what they do in the DMG before buying.
Out of 13000 D&D players on roll20 here is the current break down of games they are looking for.
AD&D 1E & 2E 1550
3.5e 6450
4e 4400
5e 2500
PF 6150
OSR 250
BECMI 700
Every step away from World of Dungeons and Dragonscraft 4E is a good idea in my book.
What i dont like about 5th yet is the lack of skills. A few more would have been nice. Especially since i am used to Rolemaster.
But it will do better than 4. Much better.
dmgorgon wrote:
I am really feeling Meh on 5th edition ... and I'm still working on crating a character. I'm used to playing 3.5 wher there are a lot (and when you put in source books even more) options to build your character.
Looking at 5th.. you get maybe two or three options for how to build your class... if you want to be a Sorc you HAVE to have Draconic blood or be a wild mage. No other choice. If you are a wizard you HAVE to pick one school to specialize, no longer a jack of all trades. If you are a druid you no longer get a comanion and if you want to be a caster you can't cast in wild shap untill lvl 18. Clerics have lots of domains, but they are so steroytyped as healers that if you tried to pick a domain other than life your party would look at you like you are crazy... and they seem to have lost all their negitive energy abilities... I remember that some of the best necros were actually clerics in 3.5.
Then you have backgrounds. Which is up to the DM... but if they are using the gear / gold from backgrounds for your party you have to go with one, even if none of them really fit into how you would normally play, and if your dm says you HAVE to do the random rolls for personality and such you could end up with a chatacter who's background and personality you hate, and won't have fun playing.
It just seems that a lot of things have been over simplifed which makes it overly complicated to create a character that reflects your own personal style and creativity. This is further exempified by not having as many feat choices or skills... so it seems that characters are now more cookie cutter, out of the box rather than shaped and molded by the player.
Zardnaar wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
I think there's a delay as people finish campaigns and wait for the full books to be released. Basic is neat but there's not a heck of a lot of monsters included. The number of campaigns will grow over time as people find groups, convince groups to switch, and word of mouth spreads.
Probably.
Personally.
I haven't bought any D and D since 2nd edition. I have played both Pathfinder and 4th. Thought Pathfinder was a better game. 5th edition is definately better then 4th edition. I watched the Lost Mine of Phandelver being played on you tube to gain more info about 5th. I was impressed. I went and bought the players handbook and starter set. I will be DMing here in a very short time. So for the most part I like it far better then 4th edition. I like it better then Pathfinder. So all in all Kudos.
Mistwell wrote:
I can't speak to 5Es chances of success, but I am personally very enthusiastic about it, and I wish it all the best. It takes the game away from that 4E WOW feel I never grew up on and never enjoyed and back closer to the 2e and 3.5 that I loved while removing the clutter of those old systems.
5E isn't all rainbows. To name a few, I feel the rules lack clarity at times, I loathe the healing and dying system, and like every other edition before it, there are always classes that are quite weak and players take merely for RP purposes. Still, no game system is perfect and 5E is overall an impressive effort.
I fear a bit for the game's success because among many of the players I've known over the years that spurned 4E for a Pathfinder, upon asking them if they planned to switch over to 5E the responses were a mix of "ehh, maybe I'll try it someday" and just flat out "no." In the other camp, those whose first experiences with D&D was 4E...every player who starts at one edition is skeptical of the next. When I first started playing in '89 2nd edition had just come out and all the 1E guys were swearing it off. When 3E came out I refused to let go of my beloved (if nonsensical) THAC0...I eventually embraced 3.5 but it took a couple years (but when I did...well I played it straight through to 2014. I suspect the same could happen with the 4E players. It may take them awhile but hopefully they'll embrace 5E eventually. Of course, 4E was a bridge too far for me, and 5E may be the same for them. Maybe we will see some 4E version of Pathfinder pop up.
I can't speak to 5Es chances of success, but I am personally very enthusiastic about it, and I wish it all the best. It takes the game away from that 4E WOW feel I never grew up on and never enjoyed and back closer to the 2e and 3.5 that I loved while removing the clutter of those old systems.
5E isn't all rainbows. To name a few, I feel the rules lack clarity at times, I loathe the healing and dying system, and like every other edition before it, there are always classes that are quite weak and players take merely for RP purposes. Still, no game system is perfect and 5E is overall an impressive effort.
I fear a bit for the game's success because among many of the players I've known over the years that spurned 4E for Pathfinder, upon asking them if they planned to switch over to 5E the responses were a mix of "ehh, maybe I'll try it someday" and just flat out "no." In the other camp, those whose first experiences with D&D was 4E...every player who starts at one edition is skeptical of the next. When I first started playing in '89 2nd edition had just come out and all the 1E guys were swearing it off. When 3E came out I refused to let go of my beloved (if nonsensical) THAC0...I eventually embraced 3.5 but it took a couple years (but when I did...well I played it straight through to 2014. I suspect the same could happen with the 4E players. It may take them awhile but hopefully they'll embrace 5E eventually. Of course, 4E was a bridge too far for me, and 5E may be the same for them. Maybe we will see some 4E version of Pathfinder pop up.
Zardnaar wrote:
h347h50 wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
dmgorgon wrote:
5e is roaring out of the gate. D&D usually does. I personally think 5e will outsell 4e but it won't dominate the market as pre-4e games did. For no other reason than Pathfinder now exists if nothing else.
We won't know though and can't know at this point how successful 5e is going to be overall. Year one and year two will give us some clue. If 5e is not a success though then I'm going to start thinking that D&D is doomed to sit where it sits. Personally I still have hope that it's a success.
dmgorgon wrote:
After the release of 4e there was a pretty big mass exodus from the forum after the intial "I hate 4e" discussions. When the official "D&D" was 4e and the rest of the versions of D&D where lumped up into a single forum and of course the fact that Pathfinder is an unofficial D&D excluded those players entirely of which there are many there really wasn't much reason for people to come here unless you actually played 4e (which wasn't that many people).
The forums are empty today I think because the core games audiance (D&D audiance) aren't represented by what Wizards of the Coast forum or their game offerings are at the moment. 3.5 and Pathfinder are still the primary D&D games, 1e and 2e players haven't seen much representation here for years and 4e was never that hot off a topic to begin with outside of the endless edition warring over its existance. Also 5e had a pretty bad reputation out of the gate, in large part the Pathfinder and 3.5 communities where not that receptive to participation in the beta, in my circles in particular their was a lot of eye rolling when it was announced.
I think the excitment is brewing though and word is starting to spread. I'm already seeing more and more D&D games in my area and the verdict from pretty much every that has played it in my circles anyway have been suprisingly positive, even guys I know who have always hated all D&D regardless of edition like the new version and for the first time are playing in D&D games which I think says a lot about the new versions wider appeal.
I personally predict that the game will continue to rise in popularity and find its way to more and more tables. I also think people are waiting on starting up games until the MM and DMG are out, which makes sense, the game with just the PHB is incomplete. Whether that will turn the forum around remainds to be seen but for now its fairly quiet considering the game is now at least partially released.
Xguild wrote:
Amazon report. PH fell to 38, but has climbed back to 30.
Amazon reports PH felll a bit,but has returned to 30.
Zardnaar wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
It may be just me, but being negative and attacking other people for being negative is not going to make a positive experience.
Amazon says PH continues to rally and moved up to 28.
The Amazon best seller list continues to show rising sales, to #22.
I think the success of D&D 5E will have much less to do with how good the core rules are, but more about how great the adventure content is.
The published adventures for 4th ed were pretty much all stinkers. Living Forgotten Realms, however was a smash hit (at least in my area) that brought a ton of new people to the hobby, brought a ton of new blood to conventions, and had an immense amount of staying power. The store-only focus of D&D Adventurers League, in comparsion, is incredibly toxic--it's basically destroying our organized play community in West LA, where demand right now is so high that every single FLGS in the area is turning people away from D&D Encounters. You pretty much can't play D&D here.
Having left our major regional convention with no story awards, no major quests--basicaly no reason to keep playing D&D--and a character that is now leveled out of all available Encounters and home-play content, I can't help but wonder how they're going to keep people playing once this honeymoon period runs out. Wizards seems to be embracing a model where you tear up your character sheet and start over with every piece of published content, and that seems like it crushes exactly what made D&D 4E so gripping to me.
Rules don't sell games in my opinion (and I can't back this with fact, only opinion).
My love for 2e was the settings. The flavour and stories they would tell was the hook that reeled me into the system.
If 5e goes the 3e/4e route of primarily feats/classes/mechanics then it will lose my interest as they did.
Amazon has PH holding, at 23.
I'm just getting into 5e. I have the starter set and Player's Handbook and have been playing the lost mine of phandelver adventure. I am absolutely thrilled with the direction Wizards has taken with 5e. I was heavily involved in 4e, starting out as a great supporter and ending with realizing just how much I don't like it. I think I wanted 4e to succeed so much because I despised 3.5 that I was just happy to have anything new that wasn't the mess that 3.5 was. But in the end, 4e wasn't D&D to me and I longed for the days of 1e and 2e.
With 5e, I really feel like we have the edition to end all editions. It hearkens back to what made D&D great and feels so much like 2e and what 3e should have been. I think I can really settle down with 5e and enjoy D&D again for a great many years. If another edition never came out, I'd be quite happy with that. Great job, Wizards!
Amazon says PH has taken a sudden drop & is now at 35.
I think 5E is definitely different from 4th (as if that needed saying!) but I do enjoy the lighter feel of it and how magic items are a bit more...open, I guess would be a good way of saying it? I remember it's a lot like the ones before 4th in some ways but I wasn't always a big player back then, more of a spectator usually. It's definitely lighter than Pathfinder, which I tried a couple times but there was so much JUNK in it that it got too tedious too quick. I mean...over 1,000 traits? Really?! I realize some people think that's perfect and I'm very happy for them, but to me it is just entirely too much stuff to learn and remember.
I think the DMG and MM will bring out people who have been waiting to commit, as will the Christmas season. The only point I see that concerns me is the lack of a 'world book' for the Forgotten Realms. I can't for the life of me tell you what 'The Sundering' is about, where I would go to learn more, why anything has happened, and so on. I have no idea what resources I need to read, in what order, and why. There doesn't seem to be a timeline that gives a 'blurb' about what happened. So basically my group is playing Neverwinter 4E as 5E characters and our DM is like "Yeah, some stuff happened and the gods are back. So is the Weave, let's carry on." For it being the 'featured' world, I think the marketing approach is...poor at best, or perhaps the people making it are too deeply intertwined with it to realize what it looks like to those of us who are a bit...lost.
Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
Amazon says PH fell to 43, but has made its normal morning recovery to 33.
DavidArgall wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
BadMike wrote:
BadMike wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Amazon has PH down to 56.
Zardnaar wrote:
PHB sold out on Amazon
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Amazon says PH went down to 85, but has now recovered to 44.
The report of PH having sold out is clearly good news for WOTC, but it is likely just a shipping problem.
PHB has been sold out on Amazon UK pretty much since release. Same with Waterstones' website (they're the biggest remaining highstreet bookstore here).
So no way to tell yet how well it's selling relative to other products or how much shelf space it'll claim.
1eejit wrote:
I would be nice to know how big the print run was. If it is 300k its 3/.0 all over again, if it was 50k its not really that impressive selling out.
Amazon reports PH is back up to 30, a surge that may be caused by Monster Manual being at 29. Possibly a lot of people are buying both at once.
Oh noez! WotC's dastardly marketing strategy appears to be working! Darnit, that likely means, as sales invariably dip down a bit again in the coming months, the DMG will bring them right back up once again! Curse you, you (profit-seeking) business!!!
Amazon has PH back up to 26, apparently aided by MM, which is up to 25.
I wouldnt be so worried about sales, or sales comparisons, just because someone bought a copy doesnt mean they will play it. my whole group bought PHB's and half refuse to play 5th. Only us 2 DMs are planning to grab the MM and DMG, but that wouldnt be a "bad thing" for sales that we all don't need those books. I think the success will be based on its longevity, look to see how good its doing and how much its played in about a year or so. I can tell you PHB is easy to get here. Barnes and Noble has12 copies, and my FLGS has about 8. But those numbers don't really say much, the game is being played, so that is a good sign to me.
caridhor wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
I do find it interesting that there are several positive reviews that are truly horrible if you actually want any real input about the product.
"OK!!!"
"Good book."
"Great condition . . . excellent price"
"Yeah Betty !!!!!!"
"Great"
"Love the new changes"
"Best version of D&D . . . period"
and my personal favorite
"Try it you might like it!"
DavidArgall wrote:
RCanine wrote:
caridhor wrote:
Just an observation:
I went to a local game store (a very large one) this past weekend, with a huge rack of D&D products and with four tables with "Reserved for D&D" cards on them.
The wargaming side of the store had at least six tables utterly packed with players. In the largest part of the store were dozens of tables full of people playing board games and magic:the gathering and who knows what else - I didn't look too closely.
I can't say how well or not D&D is selling, but there was a lot of inventory of the new D&D on the shelf (the starter box sets looked untouched - not a hole in the wall so to speak) and the reserved D&D tables were the only empty tables in the store, on a day when the times I'd been there before were usually full of people playing a variety of RPGs. Only one person was sitting at any of the tables, flipping through a book.
Maybe there were games planned later in the afternoon and the people hadn't arrived yet, I don't know.
Amazon says PH is down to 39, possibly due to MM declining to 34. Since MM is not yet officially out yet [30th according to Amazon], some better days may still be ahead, But DMG is 287, and so a long fall is possible.
When I stopped by and picked up the Monster Manual at the game store in Oakland, they told me that they have sold over 80 Players Handbooks so far.
Not having run a game store before, I don't know if that's a high number or not. I do know it's a pretty popular game store, but there's also another popular game store in Berkeley, which is probably not more than 6 miles away.
Thalion94518 wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Gatt wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Kotaku article on D&D5. Judging from the comments,a WotC still has a LOT of bridges to mend and fans to win back. The 4e/PF split runs deep.
Amazon has PH at 27, despite MM falling to 35. So we don't have a 1-1 relationship here.
Amazon has PH at 29 & MM at 43, both down a bit, but within daily bounce range.
The_Jester wrote:
Amazon has PH down to 33, while MM is up to 36. so it seems any double orders are now in the past.
Amazon has PH down to 33, while MM is up to 36. so it seems any double orders are now in the past.
You were so excited to report the that the PHB is once again declining, that you posted it twice!
When will this rollercoaster ride end?
Weeeeeeee!
Wuzzard wrote:
Gatt wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
You two are having the same arguements on at least 2 different web boards.
Zardnaar wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
darius wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Can you guys s-block or trim down those nested quotes, if not retroactively at least in future posts?
Mistwell wrote:
Apparently not.
Daily Amazon report: PH 35, down a but, but...
MM 26 The two are moving in different directions, so there are not that many double orders, but sales in one suggests interest in the other.
Amazon says PH up to 29d, possibly aided by MM climbing to 21.
This is harrowing. Why can't these darn books just pick a number and stick to it already?! Why all this up and down indecisiveness? It's making me bite my nails to the cuticle, I tell you!
Pathfinder is a good game. D&D 5E is a good game. They both have a different design that appeal to different audiences. Long may they both live. Competition is good.
Amazon has PH & MM going in opposite directions today, PH down to 30, and MM up to 20, but both are pretty much unchamged.
Amazon has both PH and MM slipping a bit, to 33 & 22 respectively.
Amazon say PH 39 and MM, now officially released, 18.
I just thought I would give my input as someone new/coming back to D&D. I played D&D maybe a handful of times when version 3 was out probably 15 years ago or so. I had always wanted to get back into D&D but thought 4E was overly complicated and got away from the point of D&D. All the marketing and hype of 5E and some of the Penny Arcade/Nerdist videos got to me to make the jump and get back in. I got four other people together who either had never played or only played a few times many years ago. We've started with the starter kit and will move on to the Tyranny of Dragons. I love it and so do my players. We're all in our mid 30s and I thought this was a great way to get together with friends in person on a regular basis. In my opinion if it could bring us into D&D and if WoTC keeps adding more content I think they will be very succesful. Thanks.
StarkeJR wrote:
Amazon has PH back up to 34, while MM has made the top 10, at 9.
Amazon lowers PH to 42 while MM remains #9.
Honestly, while I don’t like everything about the new edition, I hope it gets to be the #1 tabletop RPG product and surpasses their main competitor. And I say this to be very nice
I think I could setup a table in a game store, have someone completely new to rpgs sit down and I could easily explain the rules and even have them create a character: pick a class, race, background, here are your stats, let's start. The rules would be very easy to pick up for people and I can easily see them getting attached to their character and addicted to the experience.
So in that sense I think 5e will be very successful and should be a great gateway drug into rpgs in general.
What makes 5e better for introducing new players than something like Fate, or PDQ, or Heroquest Revised, to use some simple examples? Or for that matter soemthing like GURPS which may look complex but where it's much easier to understand what you're doing because of it's Sim tendencies.
arnwolf666 wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
May we please leave the PF vs. 5th Ed war alone; will never be reconciled, two different games, move on.
Did the Monster Manual sell out on Barnes & Noble? It's no longer listed, though they still list the PHB and DMG and DM's Screen and various Adventures. And they did previously have it, as seen in this cached page.
Edit - Yes, confirmed, MM sold out on B&N. I got the message, "! We are sorry but the item you just added ISBN is not currently available. Please check back with us again at a later date, or search our Out of Print store."
Mistwell wrote:
the local stores here all have boatloads of 5th edition books still on the shelves, so if you really really need one and cant wait, send a minion to go acquire it from a brick and mortar. the barnes and noble next to my favorite chinese restraunt today has 14 players handbooks, 3 starter sets, and 11 monster manuals.
Not sure if you're calling me stupid or not? Not cool if you are. Having young children makes it difficult to find time, 5E makes it easier to jump right in. WotC know they will grab all of the die hard D&D fans no matter what they release. What makes something truly successful is brining new players into the mix and bringing back those that left. Just my two cents. Thanks.
arnwolf666 wrote:
Amazon has PH down to 45, and MM may have ended its brief appearance in the top 10 by falling to 15.
Dracones wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
StarkeJR wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
So, based on the Amazon.com and Amazon.ca reviews, 5th is a HUGE success! It has been out less time than either 3e or 4e, and yet it has managed to accumulate more positive reviews already...
Likewise, Google searches are also very telling. When I google Dungeons and Dragons 4e, within the top 10 searches I get something like this: D&D 4e's Out… And It's Awful. Here's Why | Geek Related. When I Google Dungeons and Dragons 3e, I don't get any negative headings, but I do get this (interestingly enough): Why is the 5th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons a big deal? . When I Google Dungeons and Dragons 5e, I get no negative headings, and instead receive a top 10 list filled with such headings as: 8 Reasons D&D 5th Edition Is Better Than Pathfinder ... .
None of this is proof as of yet. But, all the writing on the wall seems to indicate that 5th is being received very warmly. Congratulations Mike at team!
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
DavidArgall wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Sales say one thing, but in my city, good luck finding a game, even at my FLGS, waiting for encounters only 2 people showed up, I was one of them. My city has 3 stores, none are sold out of PHB or MM nor did they. I have to play it at home with friends.
caridhor wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
yeah I think it's too early to say if 5th edition will be a draw.
I like the system, but if all they do is put out adventure books for it, it'll fall flat on it's face. additional options are good. and I think WOTC would be best served to also focus HEAVILY on campaign settings and their supplements. Forgotten realms, dark sun, ebberon, etc.. these are settings that are unique and iconic. I gotta say the news that a FRCS isn't even being worked on is troubling. the 3rd edition FRCS is easily the favorite book WOTC's ever put out IMHO
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Gizmoduck_5000 wrote:
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.