Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Totenkoph Jul 30, 2015 17:47:19	I know a lot of players are already shaking their heads upon seeing the title of the thread but let me explain what is going on.   I am currently in a group full of a couple of close nit friends, we do dnd 5e through roll20 and for the most part its been working out. The problem is, is that one of our players has been a constant problem player with her character's. She either threatens to kill npcs unless we do it her way, she tends to work against the group in a lot of scenarios (for example if we try to convince an npc to give up their quest to kill someone she will try to convince them to kill that person instead) and worse of all she has stolen things from the group in game constantly.   Now normally you would just discuss these things with the actual player themself about their characters, perhaps asking them to tone down their characters and take into consideration that there are other people trying to play the game. But she unfortunantly has thourghly convinced herself that we are all overeacting and seems to think that she has no control over what her characters do (strange huh?). And while normally im all for negotiating enough is enough.   Most recently she has tried to steal loot from the group chest (fortunantly one of the groups characters thought ahead and kept all of the valuables out of it and instead hid them from her character). And while it might seem like just harlmess rping at first one of the big issues is the fact that she rarely shows up to that game anymore and whenever she finally does show up all she does is try to cause problems for the group. So now im stuck in an odd scenario where do i just keep the chest locked and hope it stops her from trying to steal from the group (my character has strong enough suspicions to assume she is trying to steal from the group if not already has) or should i just outright kill off her character since from an out of game standpoint i know that talking to her isnt goign to do much as she will just say again were over reacting and continue doing what ever she is doing that is bugging the group.    My whole group also complains constantly about her playstyle and her characters as she seems to just honestly be a troll in every game. But the situation is that the group is low on players and she is unfortunatly our only healer in the group (for that game). We have threatened to kill her characters in the past and while they worked for a little bit they never last and she just ends up getting even worse.   Any advice will be much appreciated! She is playing a cleric currently in that game.
#2 pukunui Jul 30, 2015 17:53:07	I hope you're not actually asking us for help killing a real person!   First, I'd say try getting her to read this: 11 ways to be a better roleplayer   If that doesn't work, since you're playing on roll20, is there a way to ban that player from the game?
(Reply to #2) Totenkoph	pukunui wrote:
#4 pukunui Jul 30, 2015 18:17:20	Totenkoph wrote:
#5 iserith Jul 30, 2015 18:20:53	If another player at the table is unreasonable, then the solution is simple: Stop playing with this person. On Roll20 it's exceedingly easy to remove someone from the game - the GM just right-clicks on the player's name in the campaign page and kicks the person out. Send a PM explaining why the action was taken. Then take joy in her absence.   It's also exceedingly easy to find players to take her spot on Roll20 as there are over a million users now. Just advertise the game and you'll have people lining up to fill her spot. Screen those people well, find the right fit, and play on.
(Reply to #4) Totenkoph	Thank you for your advice and ill start trying to get the dm to get rid of her. Unfortunantly our dm is the worst out of the group when it comes to all bark no bite (our dm tries to make everyone happy). But im sure once she figures out that at the expense of keeping the "troll" player happy, everyone else is not happy and not enjoying the game.
#7 Vulf Jul 30, 2015 18:43:30	See if you can have the whole party placed under a Geas to act nice and friendly and lawful. Whenever you give in to your baser natures you are wracked with pain (4d4 damage that can't be healed except by long rest to heal 1d4).   It will be fun to RP out the agony a player feels as they writhe about on the ground in pain after tripping a halfling child.  Obviously the problem player may find her life soon in danger. The quest may be to find a cure for the geas. But perhaps there are not enough cures to go around!   If she tries to take a cure for herself at the expense of the others, she is shocked by the pain of her greedy action. The other players won't suffer any such punishment for taking the cure from her hands for themselves, because they deny her the cure out of concern for a world with her unleashed.   Or you could just talk to her about fixing her disruptive behavior. But if you try to speak to her like an adult, she may think you are treating her like a child.
#8 Mistwell Jul 30, 2015 19:28:14	Have the DM put in a helm of change aligment.  Make it gold and shiney.  Let her steal it and try it on.
#9 Shasarak Jul 30, 2015 20:00:04	There is no point killing off her character if she just does the exact same thing with the next one.   Better to talk with her about it.
#10 Totenkoph Jul 30, 2015 20:14:21	I again thank everyone for their responses, i actually chuckled a bit at the helm comment, if it wasnt as bad as a problem as it is i would tell the dm to do that (hell i might do it in the future if any problem players arrise in my own games i dm). And again i repeat to the people that keep saying just talk to her, we already have. On multiple times. she played in several other games with the group and each time was a huge problem, and each time we talked to her about it, and each time she just said we were over reacting, its not her fault its her characters fault (really any excuse she can come up with)she would just refuse to accept any blame and make any changes. It's shocking really that no one has kicked her from the group permenantly yet in all reality, but as this is the only game she is in now with the group we will probably end up just kicking her from the group for good. The only big issue really i had is/was the fact that my gm is such a non-confrontation person that i knew that it would take nothing less then the whole group coming together and begging the gm to boot this problem player, so i thought it would be wise to find some alternate solutions to the problem since just talking to her about it has not worked at all so far, and in case the gm still is too "scared" to boot her.
#11 transcendantviewer Jul 30, 2015 20:23:06	A magical mishap would be flavorful and serve to resolve the issue. You can't act like a jerk when an angry old Druid (Gipsey) places a curse on you and turns you Lawful Good, now can you?
#12 Totenkoph Jul 30, 2015 20:27:49	I think it would rather be funny to make a cursed item in which once attuned with it, it makes the user start giving away all of their money and makes them extremely charitable and unable to steal items from other people.
#13 dmgorgon Jul 30, 2015 22:01:46	Shasarak wrote:
#14 BajiNaji Jul 30, 2015 22:03:06	Roll20 just hosted some game designers and a player discussing pvp in games and how to manage it healthily. You can see the vod on their youtube channel. It's worth watching, and probably asking your player to watch too, then discussing it.
(Reply to #10) VenusFlysofa	Mistwell wrote:
#16 bawylie Jul 30, 2015 22:31:48	Simple PVP rule change. When a player instigates an action involving another player's character, the recipient of the action determines the result.    A attacks B. B gets to say how that attack resolves.    B tries to steal from C. C gets to determine what, if anything, is stolen.    Etc.
#17 Rya.Reisender Jul 30, 2015 23:56:05	As iserith already wrote, there are many players that are looking for a DM for online play, so finding a replacement player should be the least of your issue (as a bonus you will probably make someone really happy to have found a game).   Not sure what to do about that girl. If talking with her really yields no result at all, I'm already thinking more into the direction that she has probably has some mental issues and unless you have a psychologist in your group you probably can't help her even if you wanted to (and she should get some professional help anyway). But maybe I'm overthinking, but then again, she will only change if she notices that she keeps getting kicked from groups. If there's no consequence, no reason for her to change.   How to kill a character off? Well, that's really easy for any DM to do if it simply can be scripted. Treasure chest, character rushes to open it, activates trap, dies. Easy. How exactly I'd do it probably would depend on the new player too, though. Maybe he just wants to take over the existing character. If we wants to have a new character, maybe the introduction of the character is directly related to the previous character's death. You can always think of something. I wouldn't bother adding specific PVP rules personally (I just don't allow that).
#18 Hebitsuikaza Jul 31, 2015 1:55:03	This is clearly something that needs to be dealt with as players.   Your desire to do harm to the character in character shows you are trying to avoid the issue and just want to hurt the person. It makes you a bad person as well, no matter what she has done. Conspiring to bully someone is never the solution.   You sit everyone down and go over new rules and make sure everyone signs off on them. Characters cannot do certain things to one another regardless of the circumstances. If your current characters cannot abide by these rules, you need to retire them and bring in a character who could abide by them. If someone doesn't want to play in a game with these rules, they need to leave and find another game.
#19 Mecheon Jul 31, 2015 2:36:39	Deal with it as players   That don't work?   Pass the GM a note you're sneaking up behind them when they're in an argument. Pull out the crossbow if they don't back down.   Point blank crossbow shots to the back of the head tend to sort that sort of thing out
#20 Zardnaar Jul 31, 2015 2:58:53	One of you will really have to leave the game. Even if you kill her character the next PC will act the same and be out for revenge anyway.
#21 Razintarr Jul 31, 2015 3:11:05	Why is murder always the first in-character solution people come up with to get rid of a comrade that isn't working out in the party? Wouldn't it make more sense to just get together around the campfire and as a group tell her things aren't working out and that the rest of you have decided she's out of the group? That's how such a situation would be handled in the real world. If someone is disruptive or acting against the interests of the rest of the group, he's out of the sportsteam/studygroup/business. It's never "sorry Bob, but your behaviour on the workfloor can no longer be tolerated. We're afraid we're going to have to kill you."
#22 Rya.Reisender Jul 31, 2015 5:28:47	I wonder if people would be like that in real life if killing someone would be a of no consequence, though.   I guess in P&P if the main groups leaves one of the characters, it would usually not mean that the character is out but rather that the DM has to get the character through a separate scenario at the same time which is annoying, so people think clearing the campaign or death is the only way out.
#23 Noon Jul 31, 2015 5:49:52	What's the social contract at the table?   Have you considered simply writing up a few rules of play that must be followed or you get booted from play mid session? Like 'no stealing from other party members'?   Why do people end up in this weird world where the other player is both allowed to take actions, but the only recourse people think there is is not by adding rules to say 'no, you can't do X' but to instead kill the character?   It's not like reality - you can write a rule 'you can't steal from party members or you get booted' and poof, it is so! Well, as long as you have a bunch of other players who will abide by it.   And the player is also stringing you along, knowing you are low on players and using this to her advantage. It's better to not game at all than be manipuated.
#24 Ralif_Redhammer Jul 31, 2015 7:33:42	Approaching the DM as a group and presenting a united front to get rid of the problem player is the ideal, next to talking to the problem player (and that didn't work). But really, even if you’re short on players, it sounds like it wouldn’t be much of a loss, since they’re a rare attendee.   The player seems like they belong to the instigator type. They’re probably doing this to get a rise, and to exert a type of control over the game. By causing chaos and messing with other people’s plans, they cause the adventure to veer off in a direction of their choosing. They get to have the spotlight, in a twisted sort of way.
#25 Totenkoph Jul 31, 2015 13:36:36	I was mainly considering killing off her character and sort of "forcing" the characters leave because of the fact that the gm is a very non confrontational person, but as several people already stated and advised it would be better jsut to pressure the gm as a group to remove the player. It's not neccesarily us running from the problem as it is the gm not wanting to confront the bad player and forcing us players to find ways in game to solve the issue, and again the problem is is that she thrives on trolling the group and messing with the group. If our character simply kicked her character out of the group and made her roll another one i have no doubt she would probably just tell the gm her old character keeps following the group and trying to steal from them. But as i previously stated We are going to confront the gm as a group and ask the gm to boot her from the game, as it has reached a boiling of point to where some players are even refusing to show up to the game as that problem player is still with the group. And so far that seems to be working, now that the gm has finally had all of us coming together at once complaining about this character the gm has decided to give the player one more chance (oh joy.... the player has had 1,000s of them) and if the player doesnt improve then the player will be booted from the group indefinently.
#26 Noon Jul 31, 2015 16:10:21	I dunno why you blame the GM exclusively - you're not prepared to say 'I'm quiting this group if you don't get rid of her or put in a no stealing from PCs rule and boot anyone who doesn't follow it - it's not worth my time otherwise' as much as he's not prepared to be confrontational.   You're just giving the GM one last chance...over and over...as well.
#27 BRJN Jul 31, 2015 16:32:07	The group I now DM for had an incident of passive-aggressive PvP, under our former DM.  Our Rogue had triggered a trap and got a face full of LSD.  She believed all the PCs were monsters and the only safe place to hide was back in an underground lake we had passed earlier.  The Cleric, trailing behind the group but realizing there was a problem, cast Hold Person on her, and she stopped near the cliff edge overlooking the lake.  Then the Warlock Eldritch Blasted her, using his invocation for a 10-ft push.  Over and in she went, unable to swim due to the spell.  This triggered the Drowning rules, and the Warlock explained to the group that he hadn't actually DONE anything to her. For extra confusion, the pair in question were boyfriend / girlfriend, in the opening stages of a breakup. This mess was eventually resolved by my Paladin jumping into 30-ft of water while wearing Plate Armor (and a long rope).  It took 90 minutes of real time.   When I became the DM, I sat down privately with the Warlock's player, to explain that I was most unhappy with his actions and he was going to have to make changes so it did not happen again. He decided to change his personality trait "the weak are to be crushed underfoot' to "I enthusiastically seek secrets, even at risk of danger or injury to myself." The Rogue's player has come back to play with us from time to time, as work schedule permits.   Had the Warlock gotten his hackles up, or offered further excuses for why it wasn't his fault, I would have held a group chat (without him) and recommended he be removed from the group.  If they had agreed, I would have then contacted him to let him know.   It sounds like your problem player is not going to respond meaningfully to requests or pleading for a behavior change.  Your DM (or some spokesman) is going to have to put a foot down and take action. Alas.