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| #1iserithFeb 23, 2015 8:35:55 | Ghastly GuillotineIn the dungeon the adventurers are exploring, they find a guillotine that is old, but still in reasonably good working worder. As they poke around the chamber, some carelessness on the part of the characters draws the attention of a wandering pack of ghasts on the prowl for living flesh.
As battle ensues, one of the PCs - Gareth the Inquisitive, a wizard played by Phillip from the Basic Rules example of play - is paralyzed. Two of the ghouls drag the wizard to the guillotine, lock his head into the device, and drop the blade.
What happens, DMs? How will you rule?
(After giving your response - which can neither be objectively right nor wrong - suggest another scenario if one comes to mind. Let's keep it going.) |
| #2melloredFeb 23, 2015 9:05:44 | 10d10 damage, auto-crit due to being helpless, (so 20d10) = 110 damage. Applying the massive damage rules as neccicary.
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
Guillotine's did occasionally fail. But not often.
Situation: You polymorph a terrqsque into a frog. Put the frog in glass jar filled with water, which is put into a 2x2 cupboard, inside a 10x10 dwarven shack, inside a 20x20 tunnel. Then walk away and stop concentrating. |
| #3JenksFeb 23, 2015 9:45:43 |
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| (Reply to #2)CCS |
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| #5kalilFeb 23, 2015 9:55:26 | He dies.
As the sould of the departed mage is swept towards the afterlife a burden heavy as lead drags it down. He finds himself in a stone chamber together with the last murderer who was executed on the guilliotine. Will the two losts soulds escape together, and of they do; what will become of the ghastly undead convicted-and-excuted murderer wight that id created in the process?
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| #6ImaculataFeb 23, 2015 9:58:32 | Rocks fall, the ghouls die before they can trigger the guilotine. |
| #7GnarlFeb 23, 2015 10:09:12 | If you want to stay consistent with the rules, this would probably just be a little bit of damage. There's very little difference between a big orc trying to chop off a helpless target's head with a two-handed axe and a guillautine... Maybe 2d12+5 slashing damage? You might want to make an attack roll with advantage too.
That's just the way the 5e rules work. Every single time an assassin tries to slit your throat in your sleep, he fumbles miserably and stabs your pillow instead!
If you're going to make any other ruling, be sure to change the rules for attacking a helpless opponents. |
| #8DemoMonkeyFeb 23, 2015 10:32:00 | "Now, the guillotine looks functional - and wickedly sharp - but there is a small chance the mechanism will jam."
*Roll dice behind screen. Pretend to look at number on dice and look really ticked off.*
"Damn it. Jam! One of the ghasts climbs one arm of the guillotine and begins tugging on the ropes to free the blade. What do the rest of you do?"
New Scenario:
The player responsible for bringing snacks shows up at the game with raw vegetables and low sodium-dip. Do you kill just their current character, their next character as well, or everything they roll tonight? (Cautionary note: The players may take a note from "The Gamers" and use the pile of dead characters as cover.) |
| #9DemoMonkeyFeb 23, 2015 10:39:39 | Double Post! So beautiful! What does it mean! |
| #10ClutchboneFeb 23, 2015 10:46:25 | 1) Adjacent allies can use their reaction to stop the blade.
2) If the WIzard had the mage armor spell active then it blocks the blade.
3) Blade does jam... halfway through the Wizard's neck. Wizard is dying with 1-2 death saving throws taken away.
4) Wizard is dead. |
| #11FFSAAFeb 23, 2015 11:16:01 | As this is 5E, you would need to roll an attack roll as incapacitated targets normally do, characters even still get their dex bonus to AC when held or unconcious, so the system allows AC even in situations where you might intuitively think it wouldn't apply.
The attack would have advantage from the assist and from the wizard being held, and from the wizard being prone, but multiple advantages don't stack, again, even if intuitively you think something should be a sure thing, the system never assumes the target is completely vulnerable so you can only ever get 1 advantage. I would probably rule that for the attack the wizard is effectively paralyzed so it is a critical if it hits.
I would handle it differently, and usually more lethally, in other systems, but that seems to be consistent with how 5E handles incapacitated targets. If the attack missed it could be described as the blade sticking, the mage's armor blocking it, the guillotine being tilted, something in the channel etc. |
| #12melloredFeb 23, 2015 11:39:57 |
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| #13PsikerlordFeb 23, 2015 11:53:36 | After the mage has had a chance to break free, or cast a spell to escape (misty step?), if all that fails, and the ghouls lock him into the guilotine... one more chance to somehow escape (if eladrin, teleport, or try to sleight of hands pick the lock with disad to escape in a hurry, or whatever the player can think of .... if all that fails AND the party can't rescue him in time.
He dies.
No rolling dice etc for me on that one. Guillotines are made for cutting off heads. The PC dies.
I like Kalani's idea of his ghost meets with another ghost. The player can still participate for the rest of the session as his ghost, and then see where it goes. Maybe roll up a new guy, maybe try for a rez, etc.
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| #14PsikerlordFeb 23, 2015 11:55:26 | After the mage has had a chance to break free, or cast a spell to escape (misty step?), if all that fails, and the ghouls lock him into the guilotine... one more chance to somehow escape (if eladrin, teleport, or try to sleight of hands pick the lock with disad to escape in a hurry, or whatever the player can think of .... if all that fails AND the party also cannot t rescue him in time... He dies.
No rolling dice etc for me on that one. Guillotines are made for cutting off heads. If the PC cannot quickly escape, or be rescued, that's it for him.
Then I like Kalani's idea of his ghost meets with another ghost. The player can still participate for the rest of the session as his ghost, and then see where it goes. Maybe roll up a new guy, maybe try for a rez, etc.
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| #15iserithFeb 23, 2015 12:24:59 |
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| #16VahnyuFeb 23, 2015 12:50:50 | Guillotine rolls damage as if it were a greatsword or a greataxe, with a +5 STR bonus. The object makes an attack roll with advantage. On a critical hit, it severs the Wizard's head, as if it were a vorpal weapon.
Characters within attacking range can spend an inspiration point or a reaction to make an attack that blocks the Guillotine. The wizard can spend an inspiration point to get out of dodge by casting a spell. |
| #17ZardnaarFeb 23, 2015 13:21:54 | Death. |
| #18BRJNFeb 23, 2015 13:38:11 | Guillotine: Monk uses a head-butt (or a head-on collision at top speed) on the big flat side of the blade to jam it in its track. Party leader calls on the Thrown Weapon expert to do HIS thing to the blade. Tiefling Warlock with Infernal Blazes (or whatever that spell is) burns through one of the posts that hold the blade up Cleric casts Turn Undead and does extraordinary damage to the ghasts. The right Oath of Paladin uses his Channel Divinity and forces the ghasts to flee the room rather than drop the blade. Barbarian goes HULK SMASH on the framework. All elves use shortbows to stick arrowheads where they will mess up the blade's passage. Thiefly Rogue does his specialty (reverse-engineer a Trap, in effect) to make sure the mechanism will never work right again.
Next problem: The dead god of Murder is trying to resurrect himself. You know where his last remaining Chosen is. You know that if this Chosen dies a natural death, the deity's plot will fail and he will stay dead forever. However - if the Chosen is SLAIN / KILLED, the deity will use the magical power thus released to enable his own ascension back to godhood. How do you eliminate the Chosen of a god of Murder?
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| #19BoldItalicFeb 23, 2015 14:25:26 | GuillotineThe paralysed wizard can still make Intelligence saving throws. On a successful save vs DC 15, he realises that the guillotine is an illusion and is safe from decapitation. On a failed save, the blade is real and he is decapitated. But since his head is now detached from the bloodstream containing whatever causes the paraysis, his head is no longer paralysed and he can speak, albeit only in a voiceless whisper because he has no throat and no breath. I rule that he is able to cast spells that require only a verbal component. He casts Wish.
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| #20feartheminotaurFeb 23, 2015 14:14:21 | Wait...this doesn't have anything to do with that guillotine lurking around the corner in the latest Summer at the Lake, does it?
I would have to agree with a lot of the above - if the rest of the party has no way to stop the blade from falling and/or it passes some kind of percentage mechanical failure check, it should be death. Sucks for the player, but if it's gotten far enough that his head is on the block... |
| #21OrethalionFeb 23, 2015 14:33:03 |
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| #22MiladoonFeb 23, 2015 15:18:18 | "Two of the ghouls drag the wizard to the guillotine, lock his head into the device, and drop the blade."
As the DM, my mind was made up long ago how this wizard was going to die. |
| #23The_White_SorcererFeb 23, 2015 15:27:41 | The other players might be able to stop the ghasts, and I'd give the blade some chance of jamming, but if the blade falls… A) The wizard makes a DC 25* Con saving throw, with a natural 20 being an automatic success**. If the save is succesful, the wizard is immediately dropped to 0 hit points. If the save fails, the wizard is decapitated and dies instantly. OR B) I treat the guillotine as a large vorpal greataxe except it decapitates on 2-20.
*Normally I'd make the DC 30, but since the guillotine is old it is more likely to fail. **They removed this from the rules, right? At least I can't find it, so I'm making a special exception in this case. |
| #24OrethalionFeb 23, 2015 15:30:51 |
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| #25OrwellianHaggisFeb 23, 2015 15:48:27 | I'd ask the player what they thought would be the better story for their character; death, staying on the earth as a shade, and eventual resurrection, or surviving, wounded, and struggling with the consequences (infection, illness, madness, and romance - when a sympathetic NPC nurses them to health).
Then I'd rule. |
| #26WuzzardFeb 23, 2015 17:43:52 | Guillotine:
The head is sheared off instantly, but the PC is not dead yet, and can still take actions. This may have something to do with the necromatic energy permeating the ghasts' lair. The headless body is blinded, but can attack. The head can see but can only speak, unless someone enters its square, and then it can bite. If the parts work together, such that the head shouts orders to the body, the body has +2 to hit (in addition to blind). It is possible for the PC to be reassemblied and cured of this affliction with divine magic, but if removed from the necromatic energies before this cure is applied, death is certain.
The ghasts then attempt to ferret away the head if they are able, and deliver it to a secret chamber where shelves lined with other disembodied heads rest for eternity, bickering amongst themselves over obscure rules for a fantasy RPG they have invented to pass the time. The bodies live on as unspeakable horrors controlled by a mad necromancer somewhere deeper in the dungeon. Some time after the encounter, if the body is still living separate from head, the necromancer will attempt to take control of it, and eventually add it to its headless horde.
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| #27VahnyuFeb 23, 2015 17:56:07 |
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| #28ankiyavonFeb 23, 2015 17:58:46 | For me, it would take a minimum of one full round for the ghasts to get the wizard into place and pull the trigger. Two rounds being more likely unless he was already right next to it.
If the PCs allowed them to get him locked in place despite seeing it coming and having a round or two to stop it, then the blade falls and he dies. |
| #29FFSAAFeb 23, 2015 18:06:35 |
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| (Reply to #20)Reius |
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| #31OrethalionFeb 23, 2015 19:46:08 |
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| #32Tony_VargasFeb 23, 2015 19:50:36 |
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| #33MechaPilotFeb 23, 2015 20:24:28 |
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| #34Beldak_SerpenthelmFeb 23, 2015 20:29:26 |
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| #35MechaPilotFeb 23, 2015 20:32:36 |
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| #36NoonFeb 23, 2015 20:40:39 | I don't know why I'd have the ghouls drag the guy off to begin with? Let alone use a gillotine?
Why tell me what I'm doing so very specifically then ask me what I do half way through? But I guess it figures it'd be asked that way.
And if a group actually defines in objective terms what is just, then there is a objectively right or wrong answer in regard to that. |
| #37lawrencehoyFeb 23, 2015 20:52:25 |
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| #38lawrencehoyFeb 23, 2015 20:59:58 |
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| (Reply to #3)The_White_Sorcerer |
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| (Reply to #8)The_White_Sorcerer |
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| #41strider13xFeb 24, 2015 3:10:34 | Mechanically I would have the Ghouls make attack rolls against the incapacitated target (Advantage, auto-critical). I would narrate the HP damage as the Ghouls setting the target into the trap. Once the Wizard reaches 0 HP the Guillotine falls, killing him dead. |
| #42BoldItalicFeb 24, 2015 3:21:08 |
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| #43UchawiFeb 24, 2015 3:40:35 | It is hard to determine because it is not my dungeon. But to begin with if I added a death trap to a room then I may hint at the possibility of a readied action to jam it, or build in a safety mechanism in the guillotine to jam because it is old. But I would play off the entire dungeion as a death trap ala tomb of horrors which would hopefully create enough paranoia to avoid or disable a device at all costs. With all that stated, what are the chances of the scenario actually occuring? Probably 5 percent or less, but I would want to make sure as a DM that the players have no problems with disposable characters. It takes a special type of group to want to go into a tomb of horros to begin with. And finally, I would be more accepting to kill a character at low level versus high. |
| #44iserithFeb 24, 2015 6:09:05 |
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| #45iserithFeb 24, 2015 6:12:18 |
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| #46iserithFeb 25, 2015 7:15:46 | Introducing Dodge ActionA player is playing a pulp action hero named Dodge Action whose shtick is to avoid attacks as much as possible, make as few attacks as possible, use terrain effectively to stymie or hurt aggressors, and generally to get into trouble and work his way out of it in an entertaining way. One of the things the player tries to do frequently is set up enemies into a "circular firing squad" where a perfectly-timed dodge, duck, dip, dive, or dodge will see one enemy hitting another with an attack (melee or ranged) meant for the character.
How do you adjudicate the "circular firing squad" situation? (You are free to make assumptions as to the character's race, class, feats, etc. to justify your ruling.) |
| #47DemoMonkeyFeb 25, 2015 7:54:01 | I'd let the player make an attack action. If it was succesful, I would allow them to roll their damage but narrate that damage as being the result of one of the enemies hitting one of their allies.
(The key here is that the player is doing it OFTEN in the example. If they were only doing it once I might do it differently and give a more generous result for the creativity and fun factor. But it's not bonus-worthy if you are spamming it, especially if you are spamming it for a greater effect than you would be getting normally.) |
| #48bawylieFeb 25, 2015 8:10:29 | I don't think spamming ought to be a factor. I don't police basic Attacks or cantrips or how often someone fireballs. So I don't see spam ability as a factor.
As a player, I beleive this character requires some collusion with the DM. (Maybe not for DW, but in D&D, yes). And I'd basically be talking about my positioning a lot - "I move here so anything missing me should have a chance at hitting the enemy behind me."
As DM, I'd say the "friendly" target doesn't even really get cover. Bc the player is dodging already and trying to get the friendly target hit.
I keep imagining drunken master here. And I want to help make that happen.
Now, let's change it up. Say we're using weapon speed factors and round-by-round initiative. Everyone declaring what they do. Now it's easier for Dodge Action to use aggressive positioning and zone denial. He knows who is attacking whom or aiming what spell - and with that knowledge, can take advantage of the lines of fire in that round. |
| #49SterlingRatFeb 25, 2015 9:11:15 | For Dodge Action: I'm also envisioning Drunken Master with the Tavern Brawler feat. He's using his enemies as improvised weapons - d4+ability mod damage. He can either take the real dodge action (gives all enemies disadvantage) and he can use his bonus action to make a single attack (d4+ability mod damage) or (if he's a monk) use his normal number of attacks & damage and spend a ki to take dodge as a bonus action.
I know using the rule is bland, but spice it up with narative.
I'm not creative enough to make up one. How about something slightly different... Narratively describe this event from afew games back: A gnome monk uses Deflect Missile to catch and throw back a boulder from a fire giant. The rules say it worked. I was DMing and my brain just shut down - I could not come up with any reasonable narration for that. Can you? |
| #50strider13xFeb 25, 2015 9:30:11 | Dodge Action, DemoMonkey's suggestion is what I would go with.
As to the gnome monk, somehow the monk caused the boulder to fall out of the giants hand and landed on its head or toe. |
| #51feartheminotaurFeb 25, 2015 9:47:17 | To me there are two different types of actions here: Dodging a ranged attack and dodging a melee attack.
The first is pretty easy - the player gets between two enemies and announces "when they shoot, I dodge out of the way"
1. PC must be between the two targets on a straight line 2. PC is trying to get Enemy #1 to shoot at him, then dodge out of the way so that the attack, if true, hits Enemy #2 directly behind (or in front of) the PC. 3. The PC should have their non-armor AC calculated
I'd say PC can move and declare to Dodge when the attack comes. When it does, PC gets a Dex Save (w/ Adv) to dodge away (Since there is a chance of failure, there has to be a roll here, IMO).
If the PC dodges away, then the enemy makes the attack at the now empty space where the PC was. If it would have 'hit' the PC's non-armor AC value (10+Dex+Whatever), then the attack 'hits' the PC's formely occupied space and keeps going along the attack path until it strikes Enemy #2 (or reaches the weapon's range limit). If it misses, the you have the stormtrooper effect - doesn't matter because it doesn't hit anything. If the attack value was high enough to beat Enemy #2's AC - then roll damage (shouldn't be an auto-hit here either)
Melee Attacks...that's a different story.
The close range of it, and the way the attack and space rules are, it's hard to say "the orc chops at you, but you leap away! Then the force of the blow moves the orc 5' so he can now be in melee range of the orc on the other side of you..." or "being a bad guy, and thus having terrible aim, his sword swings at you, but as you leap away it hits his buddy in the square next to him!". The attack rules (PHB 193-4) seem to be written to circumvent those situations.
I'd probably require the PC to be in the same square as Enemy #2. The attack rules pretty clearly state you "pick a target" and to get that Enemy #1 target to change from PC to Enemy #2 would require the actual target to be the space. A PC can't enter a hostile creature's space (PHB 191); grappling is the only action that allows it, so it would have to be something akin to a Grapple to make it happen.
Example: PC grapples Enemy #2 and declares "when his buddy moves up to attack me, I'm going to roll away and let #2 take the blow". Easy, PC makes the dodge (as above, Dex Save w/ Adv), and #1 continues his action of striking the square, rolls an attack (no Adv since the grapple is broken) and if it hits #2, rolls damage. Or the PC could make the grapple and 'turn' Enemy #2 to use his as a 'shield' (so #1 would have Adv on the attack roll)
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| #52Brock_LandersFeb 25, 2015 10:18:50 | Some sort of check/save: at the last minute the mechanism breaks/jams/you bust free, etc, before insta-kill. Basically a good old fashioned save-or-die, which as a DM of over 25 years have never really engaged in, but of course would with this. |