It really bothers me that Cantrips use totally different rules from other spells. The way it is, you KNOW a small amount at creation and that's it. You get no chance of knowing any more until a later level. Nevermind the fact that you place 100 9th spells into your spellbook you can only have a fixed number of cantrips.
Why is this?
Is it to limit us to having only a few at will attack spells? That's pretty silly. There is no limit to number of weapons a fighter can use at will. It's not like Cantrip attack spells are overpowered. They are pretty pathetic when you compare them to other classes at-will attacks.
Is it to not confuse people because they are Level 0 spells and don't fit in the 50 gold per level thing to put in a spellbook? That's pretty silly too. Just treat it like a level 1 spell. Or even it's such a simple spell that it's free to put in your spellbook.
The reason why I hate this so much is not because of the attack spells but because Light, Prestdigistation, and Mage Hand. These are spells that I think every apprentice wizard should learn. But if that's the case then they can not get an at-will attack until a higher level.
My stance is a cantrip shouldn't be treated differently than other spells. You should be able to place more into your spellbook and be able to memorize different cantrips depending on your need. I'd be ok with the limit on how many you can memorize as long as these can be changed out with other level 0 spells from your spellbook. What really gets me is that Rodney Thompson devoted a Q&A on this and said that cantrips can be learned just like other spells. Guess someone forgot to write that decision down.
ZaranBlack wrote:
I like the limited number of cantrips. They aren't like normal spells, they're more like innate magical talents. A character's choice of cantrips helps to set him apart, and sometimes hard choices are a good thing. If wizards could learn every single cantrip, it would not only give them a really unfair advantage over all other casting classes, it would also make the high elf racial bonus cantrip pretty much useless for them. I think a good example of cantrips are the witches on the tv show Charmed. They each had an at-will power or two in addition to their spells.
All that said, I would allow players in my games to add new cantrips to their spellbooks as 1st level spells.
ZaranBlack wrote:
If cantrips are purchasable, it would invalidate the high elf's racial trait. I think that, more than any other reason, led to the limit on cantrips.
I don't mind the way cantrips are done. They are still fairly similar to how the 4E At-Will attacks were done, you just get a lot more choice in the matter. The fact you get more as you level is also a welcome addition.
abanathie wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
A houserule could be that a Wizard can learn all the cantrips he wants, but can only prepare as many as he would normally know. So, 3 at first level. With this rule, High Elf Wizards could prepare an extra cantrip as a result of their racial feature.
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
I'm considering upping cantrips to First level spells, and letting PCs cast any first level spell through their "cantrip slots" ala Spell Mastery; Mind you, I've been drinking some beer, and haven't seen the PHB's full selection of classes, cantrips or first level spells, so maybe I should just join House-Rule Anon.
"This isn't an accusation, Hitdice, I just want you to answer a question: When's the last time you enjoyed yourself without house-ruling something?"
"That's just stupid! I can stop house-ruling anytime I want, I just don't want to!!" 
abanathie wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
I think this
FallingIcicle wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
This is what I will be doing cantrips:
Cantrips are all level 1 spells. They use all the normal rules of level 1 spells.
I'll also probably boost up the effect of some a bit if they're too weak compared to level 1 spells.
Done.
abanathie wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
There might be feats that let you buy extra cantrips too both as a multiclass feat or if you just want more spells. I'd rather see how that interacts first.
I am mixed on this. Good points have been raised here, but one of the things I liked about 4e was the idea that wizards could create minor magical effects at will. It was cool to have a wizard who could heat his coffee, set up his tent or clean his robes with a wave of the hand. I like the notion that wizards are immersed in magic (at least in high fantasy).
I guess my inclination would be to give every wizard prestidigitation for free in addition to the other cantrips , and to give a little latitude in terms of effects, but stressing the minor effects.
the other thing I liked about 4e wizards is that magic missile was an at will spell, which meant the wizard always had something to do in combat that was wizardly. So my only real houserule is going to create a cantrip version of magic missile that only does 1d4+1 damage. This would be a cantrip choice, and would not replace the more powerful first level spell.
pauln6 wrote:
Yeah I wish it was something wizards could pick up like other spells and the known cantrips was more how many could be prepared. It makes little sense to me you can learn every other spell many of which are massively more complex but the easy stuff you are limited to 5. Plentty of other things make a character feel different your cantrip selection is not huge.
I suppose if you wanted cantrips to work like other spells you'd just give casters a certain number of Cantrip (or '0' level) slots, and let them prepare cantrips like any other spell.
Of course, you'd want to decide what benefit is derived from using a higher level slot to cast a cantrip. Perhaps being able to cast the cantrip 'at will' for a period of time based on the level of the slot expended?
Ahglock wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Jbickley00 wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
kill_the_wiz_first wrote:
abanathie wrote:
I am house ruling in the other direction. There are no spell books in my game. The spells you know are the spells you know. Same for druids and clerics ofc. Been doing this in the playtest and it has worked surprisingly well.
If you want cantrips to function just like other spells, then make it so theyre "always prepared" versions of the spells for wizards. Essentially, they become the ones the wizard practiced, or had so much affinity for, with such low complexity (as entry level magic) that they are ingrained in their memory. I think upping their effects should still use a slot increase, at least after a point.
I also think doing the same for other spells of different levels based on wizarding levels (really this works best for wizards because of how they gain and prepare spells, but it could spread) isnt an issue. A 5th level or 6th level wizard, for example, has expanded his/her mind enough, and become so much more familiar with the intricacies of magic that there's now a first level spell which they have prepared all of the time that can be used in a slot. Etc, and so on, based on the flavor and power levels you like in your campaign. There's no vertical power increase here; it's all lateral, expanding options (just like spontaneous casting expanded clerical options in 3.x).
I would (and this is a vertical increase), consider letting "advanced" wizards use either a gifted class feature based on level (further differentiating those who multiclass from single class) or a feat selection option to start gaining at will spell slots for lower level spells. It would, however, be locked into a spell they had learned "expertly" like in the above example, so its not an at-will slot which lets you just cast any first level spell you know, but an at-will for a specific spell, at that slot level. The level i'd consider starting this at, without playing through the rules yet, is 11.
Shasarak wrote:
I think some excellent houserule ideas have been presented here. My favorite would be to combine a few thoughts:
- The # of cantrips listed as "known" are the ones you have prepared; High Elves get a bonus prepared slot
- Your initial cantrips are in your spellbook, you can add cantrips to your spellbook by the same methods as other spells
- You re-prepare when you re-prepare other spells
I would also echo the semi-relevant rule from a couple other threads, that Cantrips count as 1/2 level for purposes of determining Overchannelling damage.
kalil wrote:
I'd be fine with a compromise. All cantrips are recorded in your spellbook, and you can get new ones, but only the number you know (based on class or race) are "at will". Any others you may have picked up and added to your book in excess of that have to be cast using 1st level spell slots.
abanathie wrote:
I actually like the way cantrips are handled. However, I think there should be an optional way to learn additional cantrips over time. Either as someone else suggested you could learn them as 1st level spells or perhaps create a feat (using the optional feat rules) that can be selected to learn a new cantrip. I think that would be the best compromise. It does strain reason that what you start with is all you get concerning cantrips but without measures to limit the ability to acquire them it both destroys the importance of choice and the balance of at-will magic.
RoninJT wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Nicodaudel wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
From what I have seen, cantrips can be treated as 0-level spells, and spells can be cast by using a slot of a higher level. So a level 0 spell that isn't memorized to be at will can be cast as a level 1 spell.
Doesn't "DM can let you" resolve pretty much any D&D problem? Do we need a tweet about it?
I don't like at-will magic in general.
Still some easy houserules would be...
1. Cantrips can be learned just like spells.
2. Most people can prepare 2 cantrips.
3. Elves have one more.
4. When you gain a new one you can prepare another.
To solve my at-will issues maybe...
1. Instead of unlimited you get 5+your level in cantrip slots per day.
I am opposed to "Spells Known" as a general concept, in the sense of there being an arbitrary limit to in-game knowledge that can be acquired regardless of time invested in training, so I don't like it on that basis alone. If there isn't a "Spellbook" feat for non-wizards in the eventual PHB, I'll make one myself. I'm waiting for all the rules to be published before making up my mind, but I'll probably allow the Downtime training rules to apply to any trainable ability that a character can acquire, including proficiencies, feats, maneuvers, spells, languages, etc. But I digress...
Until December, though, I'll stick with cantrips as they're written... for the most part. Wizards will get prestidigitation as a bonus cantrip (same for clerics and thaumaturgy or druids and druidcraft) because that spell is, by lore, the foundational basis for all other magic a wizard ever learns.
Also, just because someone brought it up earlier, I'd already rewritten magic missile as a cantrip but hadn't gotten around to posting it yet. Here it is:
Magic Missile
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You create two glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. The spell’s number of darts increases by 1 when you reach 3rd level (3 darts), 5th level (4 darts), 8th level (5 darts), 11th level (6 darts), 14th level (7 darts), 17th level (8 darts), and 20th level (9 darts).
This is marginally superior to the wizard's other attack cantrips, but by a small enough margin that they're still competitive with each other. A wizard who selects fire bolt or ray of frost or acid splash for thematic reasons instead won't feel gimped for doing so. Magic missile is one of the wizard's most iconic spells, the internet-famous meme that attacks the darkness, so I'm OK with giving it the slight edge.
That's not bad, but I think it outstrips them by more than you think. At 1st level, it's 2d4 (=5) autodamage. The best other cantrip does 1d10 (5.5) on a hit, which means an average damage of about 3-3.5 or so. That's not slightly better, that's better by about an extra 50%. That's in addition to the fact that you can split up the darts with MM, which you can't with the others.
It outstrips it even worse if you add Empowered Evocation bonus onto each dart.
(That's not to say you can't include it this way in your game if you DM... that is absolutely fine if you want to. Just for public discussion of balance issues, in case anyone else is thinking they might want this as a cantrip, is why I'm mentioning.)
I would drop it to a straight single dart, BUT, bump it back to 1d4+1. I'd raise to 2/3/4/5 darts at 5th, 9th, 15th, and 19th, or so. The expected damage is roughly in line with the other cantrips, and it *still* has the added benefit that you can choose to split the darts (e.g. if you think one or two things are 2hp from dead already or somesuch.)
Chimerasame wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Chimerasame wrote:
Cantrip magic missile should be 1 missile at level 1 for 1d4+1. A second missile gained at 5, a third at 11, and a forth at 17. This cantrip would be a very powerful versatile tool, but would lack the raw damage of fire bolt or the utility of ray of frost.
On a different note, one issue we ran into at our game this weekend was the fact that a light crossbow deals better DPR than any cantrip until level 5. Our party wizard realized this and decided he was better off using the crossbow, which of course made him not feel very wizardly.