In your opinion, what is the best Thief class? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Slit518 May 13, 2015 9:57:56	I decided to let a 5th player into the group, and one of the player's suggested we needed a Rogue, mainly for thieving. Well, coincidentally enough, the player wanted to do thief things such as sneaking, picking locks and pockets, etc... So, I figured with certain classes and backgrounds, this can be achieved. Out of the options available, what do you think is best? By the way, he is a Changeling, so he gets the Deception skill. College of Lore Bard College of Valor Bard Way of the Shaow Monk Hunter Ranger Beast Master Ranger Assassin Rogue Thief Rogue Arcane Trickster Rogue The background he chose was Criminal, which gave him proficency in Thieve's tools (which he wanted for his thieving). Any skills that he would get that would duplicate from his class choice, I would let him choose other skills, as the Criminal background offers Stealth and Sleight of Hand. Needless to say, he wound up going with Way of the Shadow Monk, for it's later abilities and combat prowess. The skills he knows are Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, and Deception. I feel like those are fairly good thief skills. The tools he knows how to use are Thieve's Tools, Playing Cards and Tinker's Tools, which only the Thieve's Tools are required for thieving, but he hopes to use the Tinker's Tools to take apart the locks and build little mechanical things as well. Well, anyway, post your thoughts and opinions. Thanks in advance!
#2 AaronOfBarbaria May 13, 2015 10:49:13	Which thief is the best thief? I'd probably call it a tie between the actual thief (the subclass has that name for a reason) and a criminal wizard with an appropriate selection of spells for whatever sort of thieving is to be done. The only thief that does better than one of those, is the two of them working together.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind May 13, 2015 11:00:21	You can do quite a lot with background. Criminal, Urchin, and Charlatan are all spectacular thieves (though the last one doesn't have the right tools, it is very well positioned for confidence games - grifting is every bit theivery as picking pockets.) Actually, since Urchin gives Sleight of Hand as well as thieves' tools, I'd use it as my background of choice for most pickpocket-style thieves, even over Criminal. All of this is independent of class. In terms of class, your needs seem best met by the actual Thief rogue. It reads boring, but it actually plays really good, especially if you're clever about the world (use Fast Hands to interact with something as a bonus action every turn. Flip switches, throw smokebombs, upturn tables, knock down torches, swing on chandeliers....)
#4 Ashrym May 13, 2015 13:40:56	A DEX fighter with urchin background can be a thief style character. My opinion is thief rogue urchin background for a typical thief. It's hard not to imagine not having cunning action after playing 5e for a while when playing a rogue and the class / subclass abilities are useful. Expertise plus reliable talent plus supreme sneak makes for consistently high stealth checks and I really like thief's reflexes. The mechanics match the flavor well.
#5 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 13:45:07	Ilike the thief myself at higher levels maybe the arcane trickster. Dadly the thief iis the easiest of thebig 4 to ignore.
#6 BRJN May 13, 2015 16:30:49	A properly-designed Wizard is the ultimate thief (build and use a Wand of Knock to get past locks, for instance). Arcane Trickster seems to be the Rogue equivalent. I haven't played one yet, but I would.
#7 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 17:41:59	Only if the DM give you a wand of knock.
#8 Kentus May 14, 2015 1:04:37	BRJN wrote:
#9 AaronOfBarbaria May 14, 2015 2:11:34	One of the things that 5th edition's design paradigm has changed is that if a wizard wants to reliably open locked doors and remain undetected while doing so, then it is in their best interest to learn how to use thieves' tools instead of limiting themself to only being able to get past as many locks as they have spell slots to cover. And when it comes to using a spell slot to enhance the ability to open locked doors, the cat's grace version of enhance ability is overall far more useful than knock. I actually think that knock is more suited to the wizard that wants to be dramatic and flashy, boldly and loudly throwing open doors and barging in on those that were trying to keep their current business private, than it is suited to the subtle, thieving sort.
#10 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek May 14, 2015 2:57:27	I actually think a ranger would make a good thief.
#11 Solarazhade May 14, 2015 8:56:58	Normally I would say Arcane Trickster, but the fact that his race is changeling takes away a lot of the utility of the trickster's spells. Most of the classes are basically the same out of combat unless something goes wrong. Then the ones that can quickly react to the situation before they get "caught" become the best. For a changeling I would say the Thief archetype. For others I would rank them this way: 1) Arcane Trickster 2) Lore Bard 3) Thief 4) Urchin + Caster class 5) Urchin + Shadow Monk The main advantage that being a rogue or a lore bard has is the slight edge on their ability checks making it so they have failures less frequently for either disarming traps, hiding, spotting dangers, or picking locks. After that you just want some get out of jail free cards in the form of alter self or invisibility for example. The druid's wildshape can be used for this as well if you don't mind giving up the combat potential. Ranking the Thief for a normal race is tough because it has very few failures but when it has a failure it has less tricks available to react and escape. As opposed to say an Urchin + Wizard (Illusionist) who is going to have more failures and therefore more frequently have to react and escape but is going to be really good at escaping.
#12 Solarazhade May 14, 2015 10:03:20	One thing occured to me after my reply that I thought was noteworthy. If you were to do Urchin + Cleric (Trickery Domain) or Druid you would get the Guidance cantrip which wouldn't be as good as expertise or bardic inspiration but would make up some of the difference so I would probably put those 2 options as a slight edge over the other caster options (Sorceror, Warlock, Wizard). Guidance has more drawbacks than expertise and bardic inspiration though because it can't be cast stealthily (Verbal and Somatic components), but you would be able to pick locks and search for/disarm traps with it occasionally when stealth wasn't the priority, at basically no cost to resources out of combat, so it's a nice bonus. You could also get it from the Magic Initiate feat or if you took the pact of the tome warlock option, though a familiar that can turn invisible (pact of the chain) would be useful to a thief as well.
#13 LordCorwin May 14, 2015 17:32:52	It's hard to go wrong with the arcane trickster or the thief. Both are great.
#14 Kayal May 15, 2015 9:05:22	The best "thiefy" thief class is the rogue, IMO, because it's hard to beat expertise in thieves' tools. Between the rogue archetypes, though, which is "best" depends on what it is your trying to steal and how you're trying to steal it. That being said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Any character, regardless of class, can be good at "stealing stuff." Even a brutish fighter in heavy armor can clobber people and take their stuff.
#15 Tempest_Stormwind May 15, 2015 10:13:46	I hinted at this upthread. Go ahead and watch The Sting. Or Ocean's Eleven. Or The Italian Job. Or Inception (for an unusual twist on the style, but yes, the team there fits the typical crew distribution perfectly). Or marathon Hustle or Leverage. All of these employ a mixture of heists (elaborate robbery) and cons (psychological manipulation and cheating) that translate quite well into dungeon / intrigue adventure plots that D&D is built on. "Thieves" are a diverse bunch. They aren't all lockpickers or second-story burglars or pickpockets - many are grifters / con men, hackers, or thugs, and there are roles on thief crews for just about every PC role you can think of. (I'd love to run a game where that's the PC team's theme - I've done private investigators, military contractors, scholars and guards, and Unlikely Heroes Out For Adventure, but never a thief crew. This would also be a situation where I'd enable learning thieves' cant as a language instead of just as a rogue feature, or I'd employ a teammate with Telepathy; con men need a secure line of secret communication.) Consider the stereotypical Dwarf Soldier Fighter (Champion), the Mister Universe of D&D. You can use him as a bodyguard or muscle, breaking down a museum wall so your rogue partner can get to the mechanism behind it, and then making sure that any guards who heard him don't get a chance to raise the alarm, and then intimidate the museum curator to give up the merchandise without a fight, and then haul the heavy idol out of the building quickly, and then using his proficiency with Vehicles (Land) to expertly operate your getaway coach where potential pursuers can't follow. And if that gets derailed and there's an army of goons closing in on you before your backup (your wizard) can get to you, well, you're still a big, beefy, badass fighter (with a rogue buddy and his Sneak Attack for this fight). Bring it on! (I personally prefer subtler approaches, where there's no evidence there was a trick in the first place, but wanted to describe a smash-and-grab. A longer-timetable version of the above would use the dwarf's proficiency with mason's tools and his heavy carrying capacity to smuggle in supplies to fix the hole in the wall and would need to employ a social character like a bard to charm, Charm, or mind-control the curator. But that takes more planning. Still, let's consider a long con next.) This even works with the rogue: The least obvious "thief" route is the Assassin. However, his disguise ability doesn't just work for deep cover: it also works for creating false identities when running long cons on potential marks. Instead of "infiltrate the castle disguised as a butler or minor noble, then murder the king, poison the prince, and frame the bishop on the way out", you're instead convincing wealthy nobles that you're a successful merchant from across the Thunder Sea who has just come into possession of a very valuable piece of artwork that deserves to belong in his collection, if he'd only buy it from you... at a price that he can only afford by selling something, like your actual heist target. By the time he realizes the artwork you sold him was, itself, stolen from a different mark (who has unlimited goons and twice as many lawyers who say he wants it back), and the man who bought his item was your accomplice (meaning the noble basically just gave you his own item for free) you've made your getaway, and if he looks for you, your identity was never there. And if the heist doesn't go according to plan? You're still a full-fledged assassin, capable of all sorts of dirty stealthy exploits (hiding, sneaking, infiltrating, escaping, sabotaging, and, yes, murdering any goons who happen to catch you in the act). (Incidentally? If you want another example of how an assassin can pull off a heist like this, look no further than the origins of James Bond, often cited as an example of an archetypal rogue himself. Casino Royale's main plot is actually a heist - relieve La Chiffre of all his money - with a single agent instead of the more common crew. It just gets... complicated... from there. And, interestingly, this specific heist requires being a good cards player - i.e. passing Charisma (Gaming set: Playing cards) checks. That's a proficiency that even Soldiers can get.) And the best part? Most of these abilities can be captured with appropriate tools (disguise kit, forgery kit, assorted vehicles, and of course thieves' tools) and appropriate roleplay, supplemented by one or two skills that often show up on backgrounds with those very same tools, meaning that, say, a Charlatan or Criminal background can turn almost anyone into a respectable thief or grifter. Add in feats (especially Actor, but Keen Mind and Linguist ) and you can go even deeper - well before you consider class choices.
#16 Omnilicious May 15, 2015 10:18:54	Moon Druid as a Ferret! If you doubt this ... you never owned a Ferret. ;) Jokiing aside, it would actually be very funny to add a few thieving abilities to some animals like monkeys. Good luck keeping anything in some countries where monkey's live in the cities. Little bastards will rob you blind.
#17 Solarazhade May 15, 2015 10:23:46	Kayal, Expertise in thieve's tools weighed heavily in favor of the rogue in my rankings but I will say that the bard college of lore ultimately gets to add 1d12 to 5 pick lock/disarm trap checks per short rest which is pretty powerful and comparable to a flat +6 bonus (averages at 6.5). Additionally, he can cast enhance ability on himself for dex and get advantage to disarm trap/lock pick checks for 1 hour. Advantage varies in benefit based on the DC but on average it is like having a +5 bonus. For some reason Wizards don't get that spell in this edition so the arcane trickster can't learn it normally, he would have to dip at least 3 levels into another class to get it.
#18 mellored May 15, 2015 10:44:50	Valor Bards have a better "nova" on skill checks, but it's not sustainable. Rogues get reliable talent. They can pick locks all day long.
#19 Tempest_Stormwind May 15, 2015 10:53:57	Solarazhade wrote:
#20 mellored May 15, 2015 10:49:17	Advantage is +4.5, unless you count the extreme edges.
#21 SterlingRat May 15, 2015 11:18:54	"sneaking, picking locks and pockets" are the only things you gave us to define what you consider a thief - any class with the proficiencies can do that, but Bard & Rogue would do it best due to expertise. I would say rogues have the advantage because they will eventually get reliable talent at level 11. What are the other things they want to do? If you want to actually get things that don't belong to you, probably a wizard. They can charm people into giving them things, turn invisible and take what you want, teleport into areas that the rogue can't reach on foot... very capable of handling a variety of situations and adapting to whatever threat they meet.
#22 Kayal May 15, 2015 11:33:12	Solarazhade wrote:
#23 mellored May 15, 2015 11:49:02	Kayal wrote:
(Reply to #21) Ashrym	SterlingRat wrote:
(Reply to #23) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #24) SterlingRat	Ashrym wrote:
#27 Kayal May 15, 2015 13:02:39	mellored wrote:
#28 mellored May 15, 2015 13:00:27	Kayal wrote:
(Reply to #28) Kayal	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #27) Ashrym	Kayal wrote:
#31 Kayal May 15, 2015 13:19:01	Ashrym wrote:
#32 mellored May 15, 2015 13:20:32	Rogues also get an extra feat and cunning action. Which can be used for a number of things.
#33 Mephi1234 May 15, 2015 13:47:26	What I like best about Thieves is that I consider them to be the default "Trap Masters" of the game. Every bonus action, they can use things like caltrops, or activate a magical Rope of Binding (or whatever its called). Set up trip wires while still attacking. Scale walls to launch ambushes (a different kind of trap than using items). So, if we want to talk about what a thief is beyond just Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Tools (which anyone can get) we have to qualify what techniques we're looking at. I think the best option for a tomb raiding character would be Arcane Trickster, due to mage hand and access to invisibilty. Its hard to beat a shadowdance when it comes to breaking and entering someone's home - short range teleports always win there. Bards can use Enthrall to great effect - I think of them more as con-men, or experts at discraction while picking pockets. In the end, it all comes down to style. Personally, though, I don't think that Rangers good "thieves." The Rangers are monster hunters and trail blazers - while they can hide well, there's no real support for any other thief-like behavior. No more than, say, a Fighter or a Warlock. Speaking of, Fey Pact warlocks make good theives as well. Book warlocks can ritual cast Silence, and then use the one invisibility at-will invocation, and Disguise Self Invocation. Sure, you can't move, but its the only way to get both Invisibility and Silence on a single character at once. More useful than you'd think.
#34 Solarazhade May 15, 2015 13:50:33	Well, lots of good points back and forth. This is definitely one of the better threads to follow. I will say that I still favor a Lore Bard to a Thief Rogue, not because of how well he performs his tasks but because of how well he can adjust to unexpected situations and if needed, avoid getting caught. Though the ultimate in my mind is going to be the Arcane Trickster if you're dead set on having the perfect infiltrator.
#35 LordCorwin May 15, 2015 14:10:29	Solarazhade wrote:
#36 Kayal May 15, 2015 15:11:10	Solarazhade wrote:
#37 Mephi1234 May 15, 2015 17:07:55	Sneaks - an analysis Bard (Lore) - of the two Bard paths, Lore is the superior choice for a sneaky character. Not only does Valor tends to favor buffing spells that affect the party and his own combat power, but Lore's extra skills make them more flexible. Access to spells like Enthrall allows one to distract a large number of opponents at once, while Cutting Words lets you make an emergency "No, you didn't notice me!" distraction whenever they do something. Inspiration isn't very good at allowing stealth, but as a magician-style "watch this hand, not the other" distraction-style sneak, they're awesome. There is also Expertise for skills, a huge boon, though sadly not tools. Cleric (Trickster) - Plenty of spells at the lower half of the levels for sneaking due to low level. Duplicates and a Channel Divinity action to become invisible for a turn. The problem is that there's no appropriate sneaky spells in the cleric list, only the subclass bonus, and no access to Invisibility beyond the one-turn deal. Meaning high levels don't add much to the class option. Playing with that duplicate is the best option for being tricky or providing an alibi, but won't quiet be very helpful with sneaking, not much better than a minor Illusion cantrip. Better at actual fooling others with misdirection, to an extent. Monk (Shadow) - Now we're talking. Access to some very nice spells for sneaking, plus Shadow Step, a limited ranged but at-will teleport. You don't get invisibilty until 11, but the other spells and Shadow Step are a huge help in the mean time. When you do get invisibiilty, it combos with concentrating on Silence/Minor Illusion and using Shadow Step. When it comes to moving without being seen or infiltrating somewhere guarded, its hard to miss the Shadow Monk Ranger (Beastmaster / Hunter) - Of the two, Beastmaster is the better sneak, since Hunter is pretty much all combat; your pet can Help you for advantage on skill checks in many cases, and serve as an extra set of eyes and ears. Primeval Awareness is great for being aware of where people are when sneaking. Now, the class itself doesn't have an urban setting for Favored Terrain; depending on how your DM rules, a coastal city may count as a coastal favored terrain, open plains town as plains, etc. Stealth and Perception are the name of the game here. However, other aspects of being a sneak are sorely neglected, leaving you with just what you get from your background. Warlock (Fey Book, Chain) - The fey Patron speciallizes in some trickery effects, mainly additional illusions and some Charm / Fear effects. A familiar is decidedly handy for some stealth ops, given their invisibilty, perception. However, the advantage comes from a weatlh of trickery cantrips and at-will Invocations. Standing-still invisibilty, at will Disguise Self, Levitate/Jump, Silent Image. Hex makes a good aid by penalizing Wisdom skills when necessary. A suite of the best illusions and charms any trickster might need to know. The big problem is that there's little in the way of athletics, stealth, slight of hand, or theif tools without an appropriate background, severely limiting what mundane backup you need, forcing you to rely almost entirely on magic for everything, and magic can't replace mundane training anymore. The rogue and all its skills are literally built around being a sneak. Agility tricks, hiding, sneak attack. Its pretty much the defining feature of being a rogue. Naturally, the most important aspect of this, and any sneak build, is the skills - magic can no longer replace mundane talent. It can enhance it (most often with advantage or disadvantages), but not replace it. Expertise naturally lets a rogue be better at key skills than any other class, save the Bard. That said, a Rogue can choose Thief Tools as an Expertise, whereas a Bard cannot! And, lets be honest, theives tools are a critical aspect of being a sneak - they're pretty much the only way to get past locked doors without a teleport or making lots of noise. Reliable Talent ensures that you don't mess up on skill rolls either, and its easy to arrange for Help to get advantage on a skill (especially if it has Expertise). Rogue (Thief) - Despite the name, the Thief isn't really a strong specialist in theivery over the other subclasses. Yes, it can steal in mid-combat, but generally that's a waste, given that most of the important things you can take after combat anyways. The Access to scrolls with UMD can potentially negate any lack of benefit from magic slots, which is handy, but entirely in the DM's hand, potentially useless. All in all, I find that Thief is no better than any other rogue, just... faster at doing them, which can be an advantage. Rogue (Assassin) - Specializing in sneak attack damage and mundane disguises, with a free poison kit proficency - I am uncertain if the poison kit proficency adds your proficency bonus to the standard DCs for resisting poison, or not. If yes, then the Assassin can use poison to great effect as time goes on, as the only way to get a poison kit without allowing additional training or substituting background stuff. The disguises aren't that big of a deal, considering that you can generally pull it off with a Disguise Self spell and access to the Actor feat (easily done if you start with an odd number in Charisma). You take Assassin to be the best at Sneak Attacks and first round damage, everything else is secondary. Rogue (Arcane Trickster) - Expertise and limited magic go well together. I actually think this is the best "sneak" class. Magic to provide advantage on skill checks, very limited access to teleports and invisibilty as needed.... and Mage Hand. Steal, lock pick, make distractions, activate traps, even flirt from across the room. Inflict disadvantage on saving throws, making it hard for anyone to resist any of the limited spells. The combination of Rogue and magic is hard to beat.
(Reply to #37) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#39 Kayal May 16, 2015 3:34:56	Mephi1234 wrote:
#40 Horwath May 16, 2015 1:54:01	A thief must be good in many things to be a good thief. He must get to a place that is out of reach, hard to find, be unseen and unheard, this traslates in various skill proficiencies. Athletics (experise recomended), Acrobatics, Stealth (experise recomended), Perception (experise recomended), thief tools (experise recomended), investigation, sleight of hand, due to this skill requirements to be a great thief(any class can be average or even good thief) it comes down to rogue and lore bard.
#41 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 5:03:55	Kayal wrote:
#42 Kayal May 16, 2015 8:21:33	Mephi1234 wrote:
#43 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 9:10:29	Kayal wrote:
(Reply to #43) Mephi1234	If the Thief can pick and choose scrolls to use with UMD, then things pull a little differently for the thief. They might actually be far and away the better. You can't replace the need for mundane skill with magic, but you sure can enhance the hell out of someone who does have the mundane skill with magic.
(Reply to #41) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#46 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 10:29:10	Ashrym wrote:
#47 Kayal May 16, 2015 12:26:05	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #46) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#49 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 14:03:21	Kayal wrote:
#50 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 14:13:27	Ashrym wrote:
#51 Kayal May 16, 2015 18:12:15	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #49) Coredump00	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #50) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#54 Mephi1234 May 16, 2015 17:09:09	Coredump00 wrote:
#55 masterfat78 May 16, 2015 17:16:30	The best thief class is the one that doesnt get caught.
(Reply to #55) Ashrym	masterfat78 wrote:
#57 Slit518 May 16, 2015 18:03:16	Two more questions - Can somebody cast a spell with verbal components at a whisper level? I usually allow my players to whisper if they try, they just have to pass a "Stealth" check. And most of the caster's don't have stealth as a skill. The Mage Hand Ledgermain, if an Arcane Trickster uses it to snatch a Potion of Healing off of an enemy's belt, can it bring the potion to itself in the same round or does it need to wait unitl it's next turn to bring the potion to itself?
#58 Orethalion May 16, 2015 18:17:23	Slit518 wrote:
#59 Slit518 May 16, 2015 18:23:49	Orethalion wrote:
#60 BRJN May 16, 2015 19:42:21	Slit518 wrote:
(Reply to #57) Ashrym	Slit518 wrote:
#62 Mephi1234 May 17, 2015 6:12:22	Slit518 wrote:
#63 Orethalion May 17, 2015 7:32:02	Mephi1234 wrote:
#64 Slit518 May 17, 2015 7:32:53	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #64) Ashrym	Slit518 wrote:
#66 Orethalion May 17, 2015 14:33:40	Ashrym wrote:
#67 Kayal May 17, 2015 15:14:56	Orethalion wrote:
#68 Slit518 May 17, 2015 17:56:01	Orethalion wrote:
#69 Ashrym May 17, 2015 18:17:04	Mage Hand appears at a point you choose within range, per the spell description.
#70 Kayal May 18, 2015 10:46:12	Slit518 wrote:
#71 Orethalion May 18, 2015 11:48:28	Kayal wrote:
#72 Miladoon May 18, 2015 14:00:14	An Arcane Trickster can remove weapons from unsuspecting baddies and possibly end a fight before it even starts. But I would be all over trying a Druid/Thief.
#73 Kayal May 18, 2015 14:38:46	Miladoon wrote:
#74 Miladoon May 18, 2015 15:06:49	Nothing wrong with a rogue that has a death wish. Builds character. I don't think they are the exact same number of rolls but regardless, you are right.
(Reply to #74) Miladoon	got doublepostitis today
#76 Walkerboh77 May 23, 2015 23:25:48	the best thief is the one that convinces people to give you their stuff....whether by manipulation/deception, by spells, or a combination of both.....and if that fails has means to take it this honor goes to the lore bard as a straight class ...and to the lore bard dipped 2 levels into warlock for the best overall option if we consider multiclassing

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Slit518

May 13, 2015 9:57:56

I decided to let a 5th player into the group, and one of the player's suggested we needed a Rogue, mainly for thieving. Well, coincidentally enough, the player wanted to do thief things such as sneaking, picking locks and pockets, etc... So, I figured with certain classes and backgrounds, this can be achieved. Out of the options available, what do you think is best?

By the way, he is a Changeling, so he gets the Deception skill.

College of Lore Bard
College of Valor Bard
Way of the Shaow Monk
Hunter Ranger
Beast Master Ranger
Assassin Rogue
Thief Rogue
Arcane Trickster Rogue

The background he chose was Criminal, which gave him proficency in Thieve's tools (which he wanted for his thieving). Any skills that he would get that would duplicate from his class choice, I would let him choose other skills, as the Criminal background offers Stealth and Sleight of Hand.

Needless to say, he wound up going with Way of the Shadow Monk, for it's later abilities and combat prowess.

The skills he knows are Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, and Deception. I feel like those are fairly good thief skills. The tools he knows how to use are Thieve's Tools, Playing Cards and Tinker's Tools, which only the Thieve's Tools are required for thieving, but he hopes to use the Tinker's Tools to take apart the locks and build little mechanical things as well.

Well, anyway, post your thoughts and opinions. Thanks in advance!

AaronOfBarbaria

May 13, 2015 10:49:13

Which thief is the best thief?

I'd probably call it a tie between the actual thief (the subclass has that name for a reason) and a criminal wizard with an appropriate selection of spells for whatever sort of thieving is to be done.

The only thief that does better than one of those, is the two of them working together.

Tempest_Stormwind

May 13, 2015 11:00:21

You can do quite a lot with background. Criminal, Urchin, and Charlatan are all spectacular thieves (though the last one doesn't have the right tools, it is very well positioned for confidence games - grifting is every bit theivery as picking pockets.)

Actually, since Urchin gives Sleight of Hand as well as thieves' tools, I'd use it as my background of choice for most pickpocket-style thieves, even over Criminal.

All of this is independent of class.

In terms of class, your needs seem best met by the actual Thief rogue. It reads boring, but it actually plays really good, especially if you're clever about the world (use Fast Hands to interact with something as a bonus action every turn. Flip switches, throw smokebombs, upturn tables, knock down torches, swing on chandeliers....)

Ashrym

May 13, 2015 13:40:56

A DEX fighter with urchin background can be a thief style character. My opinion is thief rogue urchin background for a typical thief. It's hard not to imagine not having cunning action after playing 5e for a while when playing a rogue and the class / subclass abilities are useful. Expertise plus reliable talent plus supreme sneak makes for consistently high stealth checks and I really like thief's reflexes. The mechanics match the flavor well.

Zardnaar

May 13, 2015 13:45:07

Ilike the thief myself at higher levels maybe the arcane trickster. Dadly the thief iis the easiest of thebig 4 to ignore.

BRJN

May 13, 2015 16:30:49

A properly-designed Wizard is the ultimate thief (build and use a Wand of Knock to get past locks, for instance). Arcane Trickster seems to be the Rogue equivalent. I haven't played one yet, but I would.

Zardnaar

May 13, 2015 17:41:59

Only if the DM give you a wand of knock.

Kentus

May 14, 2015 1:04:37

BRJN wrote:

AaronOfBarbaria

May 14, 2015 2:11:34

One of the things that 5th edition's design paradigm has changed is that if a wizard wants to reliably open locked doors and remain undetected while doing so, then it is in their best interest to learn how to use thieves' tools instead of limiting themself to only being able to get past as many locks as they have spell slots to cover.

And when it comes to using a spell slot to enhance the ability to open locked doors, the cat's grace version of enhance ability is overall far more useful than knock.

I actually think that knock is more suited to the wizard that wants to be dramatic and flashy, boldly and loudly throwing open doors and barging in on those that were trying to keep their current business private, than it is suited to the subtle, thieving sort.

#10

XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek

May 14, 2015 2:57:27

I actually think a ranger would make a good thief.

#11

Solarazhade

May 14, 2015 8:56:58

Normally I would say Arcane Trickster, but the fact that his race is changeling takes away a lot of the utility of the trickster's spells.

Most of the classes are basically the same out of combat unless something goes wrong. Then the ones that can quickly react to the situation before they get "caught" become the best.

For a changeling I would say the Thief archetype. For others I would rank them this way:

1) Arcane Trickster

2) Lore Bard

3) Thief

4) Urchin + Caster class

5) Urchin + Shadow Monk

The main advantage that being a rogue or a lore bard has is the slight edge on their ability checks making it so they have failures less frequently for either disarming traps, hiding, spotting dangers, or picking locks. After that you just want some get out of jail free cards in the form of alter self or invisibility for example. The druid's wildshape can be used for this as well if you don't mind giving up the combat potential.

Ranking the Thief for a normal race is tough because it has very few failures but when it has a failure it has less tricks available to react and escape. As opposed to say an Urchin + Wizard (Illusionist) who is going to have more failures and therefore more frequently have to react and escape but is going to be really good at escaping.

#12

Solarazhade

May 14, 2015 10:03:20

One thing occured to me after my reply that I thought was noteworthy.

If you were to do Urchin + Cleric (Trickery Domain) or Druid you would get the Guidance cantrip which wouldn't be as good as expertise or bardic inspiration but would make up some of the difference so I would probably put those 2 options as a slight edge over the other caster options (Sorceror, Warlock, Wizard).

Guidance has more drawbacks than expertise and bardic inspiration though because it can't be cast stealthily (Verbal and Somatic components), but you would be able to pick locks and search for/disarm traps with it occasionally when stealth wasn't the priority, at basically no cost to resources out of combat, so it's a nice bonus.

You could also get it from the Magic Initiate feat or if you took the pact of the tome warlock option, though a familiar that can turn invisible (pact of the chain) would be useful to a thief as well.

#13

LordCorwin

May 14, 2015 17:32:52

It's hard to go wrong with the arcane trickster or the thief. Both are great.

#14

Kayal

May 15, 2015 9:05:22

The best "thiefy" thief class is the rogue, IMO, because it's hard to beat expertise in thieves' tools.

Between the rogue archetypes, though, which is "best" depends on what it is your trying to steal and how you're trying to steal it.

That being said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Any character, regardless of class, can be good at "stealing stuff." Even a brutish fighter in heavy armor can clobber people and take their stuff.

#15

Tempest_Stormwind

May 15, 2015 10:13:46

I hinted at this upthread. Go ahead and watch The Sting. Or Ocean's Eleven. Or The Italian Job. Or Inception (for an unusual twist on the style, but yes, the team there fits the typical crew distribution perfectly). Or marathon Hustle or Leverage. All of these employ a mixture of heists (elaborate robbery) and cons (psychological manipulation and cheating) that translate quite well into dungeon / intrigue adventure plots that D&D is built on.

"Thieves" are a diverse bunch. They aren't all lockpickers or second-story burglars or pickpockets - many are grifters / con men, hackers, or thugs, and there are roles on thief crews for just about every PC role you can think of. (I'd love to run a game where that's the PC team's theme - I've done private investigators, military contractors, scholars and guards, and Unlikely Heroes Out For Adventure, but never a thief crew. This would also be a situation where I'd enable learning thieves' cant as a language instead of just as a rogue feature, or I'd employ a teammate with Telepathy; con men need a secure line of secret communication.)

Consider the stereotypical Dwarf Soldier Fighter (Champion), the Mister Universe of D&D. You can use him as a bodyguard or muscle, breaking down a museum wall so your rogue partner can get to the mechanism behind it, and then making sure that any guards who heard him don't get a chance to raise the alarm, and then intimidate the museum curator to give up the merchandise without a fight, and then haul the heavy idol out of the building quickly, and then using his proficiency with Vehicles (Land) to expertly operate your getaway coach where potential pursuers can't follow. And if that gets derailed and there's an army of goons closing in on you before your backup (your wizard) can get to you, well, you're still a big, beefy, badass fighter (with a rogue buddy and his Sneak Attack for this fight). Bring it on!

(I personally prefer subtler approaches, where there's no evidence there was a trick in the first place, but wanted to describe a smash-and-grab. A longer-timetable version of the above would use the dwarf's proficiency with mason's tools and his heavy carrying capacity to smuggle in supplies to fix the hole in the wall and would need to employ a social character like a bard to charm, Charm, or mind-control the curator. But that takes more planning. Still, let's consider a long con next.)

This even works with the rogue: The least obvious "thief" route is the Assassin. However, his disguise ability doesn't just work for deep cover: it also works for creating false identities when running long cons on potential marks. Instead of "infiltrate the castle disguised as a butler or minor noble, then murder the king, poison the prince, and frame the bishop on the way out", you're instead convincing wealthy nobles that you're a successful merchant from across the Thunder Sea who has just come into possession of a very valuable piece of artwork that deserves to belong in his collection, if he'd only buy it from you... at a price that he can only afford by selling something, like your actual heist target. By the time he realizes the artwork you sold him was, itself, stolen from a different mark (who has unlimited goons and twice as many lawyers who say he wants it back), and the man who bought his item was your accomplice (meaning the noble basically just gave you his own item for free) you've made your getaway, and if he looks for you, your identity was never there. And if the heist doesn't go according to plan? You're still a full-fledged assassin, capable of all sorts of dirty stealthy exploits (hiding, sneaking, infiltrating, escaping, sabotaging, and, yes, murdering any goons who happen to catch you in the act).

(Incidentally? If you want another example of how an assassin can pull off a heist like this, look no further than the origins of James Bond, often cited as an example of an archetypal rogue himself. Casino Royale's main plot is actually a heist - relieve La Chiffre of all his money - with a single agent instead of the more common crew. It just gets... complicated... from there. And, interestingly, this specific heist requires being a good cards player - i.e. passing Charisma (Gaming set: Playing cards) checks. That's a proficiency that even Soldiers can get.)

And the best part? Most of these abilities can be captured with appropriate tools (disguise kit, forgery kit, assorted vehicles, and of course thieves' tools) and appropriate roleplay, supplemented by one or two skills that often show up on backgrounds with those very same tools, meaning that, say, a Charlatan or Criminal background can turn almost anyone into a respectable thief or grifter. Add in feats (especially Actor, but Keen Mind and Linguist ) and you can go even deeper - well before you consider class choices.

#16

Omnilicious

May 15, 2015 10:18:54

Moon Druid as a Ferret!

If you doubt this ... you never owned a Ferret. ;)

Jokiing aside, it would actually be very funny to add a few thieving abilities to some animals like monkeys. Good luck keeping anything in some countries where monkey's live in the cities. Little bastards will rob you blind.

#17

Solarazhade

May 15, 2015 10:23:46

Kayal,

Expertise in thieve's tools weighed heavily in favor of the rogue in my rankings but I will say that the bard college of lore ultimately gets to add 1d12 to 5 pick lock/disarm trap checks per short rest which is pretty powerful and comparable to a flat +6 bonus (averages at 6.5).

Additionally, he can cast enhance ability on himself for dex and get advantage to disarm trap/lock pick checks for 1 hour. Advantage varies in benefit based on the DC but on average it is like having a +5 bonus.

For some reason Wizards don't get that spell in this edition so the arcane trickster can't learn it normally, he would have to dip at least 3 levels into another class to get it.

#18

mellored

May 15, 2015 10:44:50

Valor Bards have a better "nova" on skill checks, but it's not sustainable.

Rogues get reliable talent. They can pick locks all day long.

#19

Tempest_Stormwind

May 15, 2015 10:53:57

Solarazhade wrote:

#20

mellored

May 15, 2015 10:49:17

Advantage is +4.5, unless you count the extreme edges.

#21

SterlingRat

May 15, 2015 11:18:54

"sneaking, picking locks and pockets" are the only things you gave us to define what you consider a thief - any class with the proficiencies can do that, but Bard & Rogue would do it best due to expertise. I would say rogues have the advantage because they will eventually get reliable talent at level 11. What are the other things they want to do?

If you want to actually get things that don't belong to you, probably a wizard. They can charm people into giving them things, turn invisible and take what you want, teleport into areas that the rogue can't reach on foot... very capable of handling a variety of situations and adapting to whatever threat they meet.

#22

Kayal

May 15, 2015 11:33:12

Solarazhade wrote:

#23

mellored

May 15, 2015 11:49:02

Kayal wrote:

(Reply to #21)

Ashrym

SterlingRat wrote:

(Reply to #23)

Ashrym

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #24)

SterlingRat

Ashrym wrote:

#27

Kayal

May 15, 2015 13:02:39

mellored wrote:

#28

mellored

May 15, 2015 13:00:27

Kayal wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Kayal

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Ashrym

Kayal wrote:

#31

Kayal

May 15, 2015 13:19:01

Ashrym wrote:

#32

mellored

May 15, 2015 13:20:32

Rogues also get an extra feat and cunning action. Which can be used for a number of things.

#33

Mephi1234

May 15, 2015 13:47:26

What I like best about Thieves is that I consider them to be the default "Trap Masters" of the game. Every bonus action, they can use things like caltrops, or activate a magical Rope of Binding (or whatever its called). Set up trip wires while still attacking. Scale walls to launch ambushes (a different kind of trap than using items).

So, if we want to talk about what a thief is beyond just Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Tools (which anyone can get) we have to qualify what techniques we're looking at. I think the best option for a tomb raiding character would be Arcane Trickster, due to mage hand and access to invisibilty. Its hard to beat a shadowdance when it comes to breaking and entering someone's home - short range teleports always win there. Bards can use Enthrall to great effect - I think of them more as con-men, or experts at discraction while picking pockets.

In the end, it all comes down to style. Personally, though, I don't think that Rangers good "thieves." The Rangers are monster hunters and trail blazers - while they can hide well, there's no real support for any other thief-like behavior. No more than, say, a Fighter or a Warlock. Speaking of, Fey Pact warlocks make good theives as well. Book warlocks can ritual cast Silence, and then use the one invisibility at-will invocation, and Disguise Self Invocation. Sure, you can't move, but its the only way to get both Invisibility and Silence on a single character at once. More useful than you'd think.

#34

Solarazhade

May 15, 2015 13:50:33

Well, lots of good points back and forth. This is definitely one of the better threads to follow.

I will say that I still favor a Lore Bard to a Thief Rogue, not because of how well he performs his tasks but because of how well he can adjust to unexpected situations and if needed, avoid getting caught. Though the ultimate in my mind is going to be the Arcane Trickster if you're dead set on having the perfect infiltrator.

#35

LordCorwin

May 15, 2015 14:10:29

Solarazhade wrote:

#36

Kayal

May 15, 2015 15:11:10

Solarazhade wrote:

#37

Mephi1234

May 15, 2015 17:07:55

Sneaks - an analysis

Bard (Lore) - of the two Bard paths, Lore is the superior choice for a sneaky character. Not only does Valor tends to favor buffing spells that affect the party and his own combat power, but Lore's extra skills make them more flexible. Access to spells like Enthrall allows one to distract a large number of opponents at once, while Cutting Words lets you make an emergency "No, you didn't notice me!" distraction whenever they do something. Inspiration isn't very good at allowing stealth, but as a magician-style "watch this hand, not the other" distraction-style sneak, they're awesome. There is also Expertise for skills, a huge boon, though sadly not tools.

Cleric (Trickster) - Plenty of spells at the lower half of the levels for sneaking due to low level. Duplicates and a Channel Divinity action to become invisible for a turn. The problem is that there's no appropriate sneaky spells in the cleric list, only the subclass bonus, and no access to Invisibility beyond the one-turn deal. Meaning high levels don't add much to the class option. Playing with that duplicate is the best option for being tricky or providing an alibi, but won't quiet be very helpful with sneaking, not much better than a minor Illusion cantrip. Better at actual fooling others with misdirection, to an extent.

Monk (Shadow) - Now we're talking. Access to some very nice spells for sneaking, plus Shadow Step, a limited ranged but at-will teleport. You don't get invisibilty until 11, but the other spells and Shadow Step are a huge help in the mean time. When you do get invisibiilty, it combos with concentrating on Silence/Minor Illusion and using Shadow Step. When it comes to moving without being seen or infiltrating somewhere guarded, its hard to miss the Shadow Monk

Ranger (Beastmaster / Hunter) - Of the two, Beastmaster is the better sneak, since Hunter is pretty much all combat; your pet can Help you for advantage on skill checks in many cases, and serve as an extra set of eyes and ears. Primeval Awareness is great for being aware of where people are when sneaking. Now, the class itself doesn't have an urban setting for Favored Terrain; depending on how your DM rules, a coastal city may count as a coastal favored terrain, open plains town as plains, etc. Stealth and Perception are the name of the game here. However, other aspects of being a sneak are sorely neglected, leaving you with just what you get from your background.

Warlock (Fey Book, Chain) - The fey Patron speciallizes in some trickery effects, mainly additional illusions and some Charm / Fear effects. A familiar is decidedly handy for some stealth ops, given their invisibilty, perception. However, the advantage comes from a weatlh of trickery cantrips and at-will Invocations. Standing-still invisibilty, at will Disguise Self, Levitate/Jump, Silent Image. Hex makes a good aid by penalizing Wisdom skills when necessary. A suite of the best illusions and charms any trickster might need to know. The big problem is that there's little in the way of athletics, stealth, slight of hand, or theif tools without an appropriate background, severely limiting what mundane backup you need, forcing you to rely almost entirely on magic for everything, and magic can't replace mundane training anymore.

The rogue and all its skills are literally built around being a sneak. Agility tricks, hiding, sneak attack. Its pretty much the defining feature of being a rogue. Naturally, the most important aspect of this, and any sneak build, is the skills - magic can no longer replace mundane talent. It can enhance it (most often with advantage or disadvantages), but not replace it. Expertise naturally lets a rogue be better at key skills than any other class, save the Bard. That said, a Rogue can choose Thief Tools as an Expertise, whereas a Bard cannot! And, lets be honest, theives tools are a critical aspect of being a sneak - they're pretty much the only way to get past locked doors without a teleport or making lots of noise. Reliable Talent ensures that you don't mess up on skill rolls either, and its easy to arrange for Help to get advantage on a skill (especially if it has Expertise).

Rogue (Thief) - Despite the name, the Thief isn't really a strong specialist in theivery over the other subclasses. Yes, it can steal in mid-combat, but generally that's a waste, given that most of the important things you can take after combat anyways. The Access to scrolls with UMD can potentially negate any lack of benefit from magic slots, which is handy, but entirely in the DM's hand, potentially useless. All in all, I find that Thief is no better than any other rogue, just... faster at doing them, which can be an advantage.

Rogue (Assassin) - Specializing in sneak attack damage and mundane disguises, with a free poison kit proficency - I am uncertain if the poison kit proficency adds your proficency bonus to the standard DCs for resisting poison, or not. If yes, then the Assassin can use poison to great effect as time goes on, as the only way to get a poison kit without allowing additional training or substituting background stuff. The disguises aren't that big of a deal, considering that you can generally pull it off with a Disguise Self spell and access to the Actor feat (easily done if you start with an odd number in Charisma). You take Assassin to be the best at Sneak Attacks and first round damage, everything else is secondary.

Rogue (Arcane Trickster) - Expertise and limited magic go well together. I actually think this is the best "sneak" class. Magic to provide advantage on skill checks, very limited access to teleports and invisibilty as needed.... and Mage Hand. Steal, lock pick, make distractions, activate traps, even flirt from across the room. Inflict disadvantage on saving throws, making it hard for anyone to resist any of the limited spells. The combination of Rogue and magic is hard to beat.

(Reply to #37)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#39

Kayal

May 16, 2015 3:34:56

Mephi1234 wrote:

#40

Horwath

May 16, 2015 1:54:01

A thief must be good in many things to be a good thief.

He must get to a place that is out of reach, hard to find, be unseen and unheard, this traslates in various skill proficiencies.

Athletics (experise recomended),

Acrobatics,

Stealth (experise recomended),

Perception (experise recomended),

thief tools (experise recomended),

investigation,

sleight of hand,

due to this skill requirements to be a great thief(any class can be average or even good thief) it comes down to rogue and lore bard.

#41

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 5:03:55

Kayal wrote:

#42

Kayal

May 16, 2015 8:21:33

Mephi1234 wrote:

#43

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 9:10:29

Kayal wrote:

(Reply to #43)

Mephi1234

If the Thief can pick and choose scrolls to use with UMD, then things pull a little differently for the thief. They might actually be far and away the better. You can't replace the need for mundane skill with magic, but you sure can enhance the hell out of someone who does have the mundane skill with magic.

(Reply to #41)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#46

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 10:29:10

Ashrym wrote:

#47

Kayal

May 16, 2015 12:26:05

Mephi1234 wrote:

(Reply to #46)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#49

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 14:03:21

Kayal wrote:

#50

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 14:13:27

Ashrym wrote:

#51

Kayal

May 16, 2015 18:12:15

Mephi1234 wrote:

(Reply to #49)

Coredump00

Mephi1234 wrote:

(Reply to #50)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#54

Mephi1234

May 16, 2015 17:09:09

Coredump00 wrote:

#55

masterfat78

May 16, 2015 17:16:30

The best thief class is the one that doesnt get caught.

(Reply to #55)

Ashrym

masterfat78 wrote:

#57

Slit518

May 16, 2015 18:03:16

Two more questions -

Can somebody cast a spell with verbal components at a whisper level? I usually allow my players to whisper if they try, they just have to pass a "Stealth" check. And most of the caster's don't have stealth as a skill.
The Mage Hand Ledgermain, if an Arcane Trickster uses it to snatch a Potion of Healing off of an enemy's belt, can it bring the potion to itself in the same round or does it need to wait unitl it's next turn to bring the potion to itself?

#58

Orethalion

May 16, 2015 18:17:23

Slit518 wrote:

#59

Slit518

May 16, 2015 18:23:49

Orethalion wrote:

#60

BRJN

May 16, 2015 19:42:21

Slit518 wrote:

(Reply to #57)

Ashrym

Slit518 wrote:

#62

Mephi1234

May 17, 2015 6:12:22

Slit518 wrote:

#63

Orethalion

May 17, 2015 7:32:02

Mephi1234 wrote:

#64

Slit518

May 17, 2015 7:32:53

Ashrym wrote:

(Reply to #64)

Ashrym

Slit518 wrote:

#66

Orethalion

May 17, 2015 14:33:40

Ashrym wrote:

#67

Kayal

May 17, 2015 15:14:56

Orethalion wrote:

#68

Slit518

May 17, 2015 17:56:01

Orethalion wrote:

#69

Ashrym

May 17, 2015 18:17:04

Mage Hand appears at a point you choose within range, per the spell description.

#70

Kayal

May 18, 2015 10:46:12

Slit518 wrote:

#71

Orethalion

May 18, 2015 11:48:28

Kayal wrote:

#72

Miladoon

May 18, 2015 14:00:14

An Arcane Trickster can remove weapons from unsuspecting baddies and possibly end a fight before it even starts.

But I would be all over trying a Druid/Thief.

#73

Kayal

May 18, 2015 14:38:46

Miladoon wrote:

#74

Miladoon

May 18, 2015 15:06:49

Nothing wrong with a rogue that has a death wish. Builds character. I don't think they are the exact same number of rolls but regardless, you are right.

(Reply to #74)

Miladoon

got doublepostitis today

#76

Walkerboh77

May 23, 2015 23:25:48

the best thief is the one that convinces people to give you their stuff....whether by manipulation/deception, by spells, or a combination of both.....and if that fails has means to take it

this honor goes to the lore bard as a straight class ...and to the lore bard dipped 2 levels into warlock for the best overall option if we consider multiclassing