Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 solomani Aug 09, 2015 20:40:09	I am curious, has anyone (or has there been in the past) an init system that actually used a deck of cards as a randomiser?
#2 The_Jester Aug 09, 2015 23:08:45	Wow... That' say interesting idea. The problem I see is that one player might get multiple actions while another player gets fewer.  I'll have to think on that, but it's interesting.
(Reply to #2) HoboJustice	The_Jester wrote:
#4 pukunui Aug 09, 2015 23:59:44	There was a thread about using cards for initiative over at EN World not that long ago. I'll have to see if I can dredge it up.
#5 solomani Aug 10, 2015 0:15:30	Thanks all.  My idea was the deck was loaded due to init skill so that character would be more likely to go first but as soon as they had their go I would ignore their cards going forward when dealing.  Just to clarify in case I was confusing you all.
#6 FFSAA Aug 10, 2015 0:25:14	solomani wrote:
#7 pukunui Aug 10, 2015 1:33:54	Try this: Alternative Initiative.
#8 TheNovaLord Aug 10, 2015 3:16:54	Yeah. In 5e this is the one thing I would like. Using cards engages players a lot more, everyone pays attention when cards dealt for SW initiative.   Not sure the best way to do it. I wouldn't redraw each round, though not sure. May playtest some of the ideas bandied about
#9 Kahless Aug 10, 2015 3:18:14	Savage Worlds also uses 2 Jokers that let you go at any time in the initiative order. Every time a Joker is dealt all cards are reshuffled into the deck again after that hand. There are feats you can get that give you bonuses whenever you have the Joker, too.
#10 solomani Aug 10, 2015 3:33:58	pukunui wrote:
#11 Kahless Aug 10, 2015 3:54:05	It's very simple. Deal 1 card to each player and villain (or set, if they're miniony types. Multiples of a creature act on the same turn). Ace is high, deuce is low. Ties are decided by suit, I believe (C-D-H-S). Jokers can interrupt and go at any time. As for the feats, I'm away from my Savage Worlds book, so I can't really look them up. Sorry.   EDIT: Once you take your turn, you turn your card in to the discard pile. If a Joker was dealt that hand, once all the cards are discarded, you shuffle the discards back into the deck and shuffle the deck.
#12 Yunru Aug 10, 2015 4:10:51	Malifuex uses regular decks of cards for Init. You draw a card instead of rolling a die. Red jocker is a crit, black joker is a fumble.
#13 Hebitsuikaza Aug 10, 2015 16:17:20	It would be just as well to entirely removed initiative bonus from the game all together.   It is already tied to the god stat which is just dumb-- with Dexterity being damage for ranged weapons and being able to outright replace Strength in every single meaningful aspect from melee attacks and damage to escaping grapples to effectively nullifying the need for Athletics with Acrobatics AND on top of all that being critical to your all important AC if you are wearing anything less than the heaviest of armor and it being flat out the most common save in the game...   Why should someone with a high dexterity get to go first on top of everything else they get? It is just really remarkably crappy design balance right there that the people making the game should have ironed out. Considering how well put together most things in this edition are, the Dexterity stat shows a remarkably bad blind spot and NOTHING in the DM's Guide nor Unearthed Arcana has even hinted at any way to fix it. Even in the part of the DM's guide discussing alternate attributes there is nothing there about fixing the god stat by splitting it up.   Taking away the completely unneeded bonus to Initiative is a good place to start though. As far as I am aware there is not yet anything else in this edition that gives you extra initiative. So then you can just put a card for each character or monster. If there is something that gives someone a bonus or advantage on initiative, then you can give them an extra card to go in the deck and ignore their second card when it comes up. But, as I said, I can't think of anything of the sort right now.   At that point just shuffle and move through it as they come up.   Again, it would be considerably more reasonable and balanced than the current system of whomever has the biggest bonus in the god stat gets to go first on top of having the best AC, hitting the most often, dealing the most damage, having the highest bonus the highest number of most useful skills and having the chance of escaping traps, blast radiuses, falling objects and well.. a good third of the things you need to make saves against.   The idea of adding an extra card for every +1 would make that bonus absolutely ridiculously powerful though. Mathematically they aren't even close. The extra card does work for advantage though.
(Reply to #13) sirkaikillah11	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#15 solomani Aug 11, 2015 3:01:45	I think someone who commits to getting a high iniatiative should have an extra card at a minimum.  Thanks for explaining the mechancis,  seem more than what I want.  Will test it out.
#16 Hebitsuikaza Aug 11, 2015 7:40:11	sirkaikillah11 wrote:
#17 Yunru Aug 11, 2015 8:10:27	All I'm hearing is "Wah Dex gets more toys." Why yes, yes it does. And Str deals more damage. And Int, Wis and Cha get more spells, and Con gets more health.
#18 Hebitsuikaza Aug 11, 2015 17:04:00	Yunru wrote:
#19 Ghost_Gallus Aug 11, 2015 17:42:31	You can let those with higher Initiative bonus play thier cards later, giving them an informed tactical advantage by letting them choose to "bet" high or low.
#20 Coredump00 Aug 11, 2015 18:27:52	Way to completely derail the thread and miss the point...     As for the card initiative.... some folks tried it without worrying about init bonuses and they decided it was a big enough improvement that even the high Dex folks had no objections. (YMMV)   It would be fairly trivial to add in extra cards for dex bonuses, either 1:1 or 1:2.
#21 iserith Aug 11, 2015 18:32:32	How exactly does it help keep players engaged when it's not their turn?   And why aren't they engaged in the first place? (I'd look here first.)
(Reply to #18) Yunru	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#23 ORC_Cricket Aug 11, 2015 19:04:03	We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.   You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct   Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.   Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.     Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
#24 Brimleydower Aug 12, 2015 3:36:08	You could just have Initiative bonuses set a minimum threshold card. Starting with a 2, every point of Initiative changes the card's face value by +1. Someone with a 16 Dexterity, for example, would have a minimum threshold of 5 (2 + 3). If that player is ever dealt a 4, 3, or 2 (of any suit) they would act on a 5 instead. You could tie the value to a suit, or have it exist "just below" Clubs. Which means, in the case of the previous example, a 5♣ would still act before the character with a 16 Dex who was dealt a 2♠.   I won't argue for the balance of such a system, but it does at least somewhat imitate the Quick edge from Savage Worlds. You could consider modifying the Alertness Feat to change the +5 bonus to Initiative to draw an additional initiative card, keeping the better of the two.
#25 solomani Aug 13, 2015 5:25:11
#26 iserith Aug 13, 2015 6:24:01	solomani wrote:
#27 darkrose5000 Aug 13, 2015 9:23:08	I am thinking about:   [1] Using some MTG cards   [2] Using creature cards made by Inkwell Ideas [ http://inkwellideas.com/creature-card-decks/ ]   [3] Making a card with a random table on it (D10, D12, D20, D24, D30, or whatever is needed). Each PC initiative bonus would have a slot with the PC's name on it (perhaps minimum of 1).  Some slots could be empty (I think some should be empty).  When that card is drawn, a roll is made on the chart in order to determine who gains something.  That character than gains something cool, like an additional turn, an action, or a bonus of some kind.   ~Example~ D20 01-02 Nate 03-04 Zach 05-06 Omar 07-07 Vince 08-10 Josh 11-12 Rich 13-20 Nothing   and   [4] Using a card sleeve with a solid opaque color on one side.
(Reply to #21) Coredump00	iserith wrote:
#29 solomani Aug 14, 2015 4:11:17	iserith wrote:
#30 iserith Aug 14, 2015 7:41:06	solomani wrote:
#31 solomani Aug 14, 2015 8:00:02	Coredump00 wrote:
#32 solomani Aug 14, 2015 18:41:19	iserith wrote:
#33 solomani Aug 15, 2015 6:53:47	Used this card based initiative tonight.  Everyone liked it.  One of the two players who took Alert said they felt two cards wasn’t enough trade-off for taking a feat BUT she said she likes this system much better.  My quick take-away:
#34 Viddicus Aug 21, 2015 14:50:03	I really really love this system. I mentioned it to some of my players and they are eager to try it. One thing I don't like about the normal 5e initiative system is the predictiveness of the combat. I certainly don't like the players saying things like "Well, if I attack and miss, then you go after me and before Bob the Giant, so just cast your spell then." You get the idea.   What makes combat really fun to me is the uncertainty and chaoticness of combat. I like everyone being on their toes not knowing when its their turn to go. I have been using an initiative system that I called the Ironman Initiative system. I won't go into too much detail about it because I don't want to derail this thread, but it basically allowed creatures (including PCs of course) to go multiple times before others (if you rolled well enough). After trying it out in a few sessions, I feel like it just gives way too much power to high dex creatures. With dex being already a godly stat...I started to search for an alternative that met the needs I have for an initiative system. Then I stumbled across the article on enworld, and then onto here. I want an initiative system that:   * Ensures all players have no idea when they will go * Each round has a different order * Keeps combat and the flow of the moving with little bookkeeping   The Initiative Deck seems like a perfect solution. As for making sure high dex creatures get something in return (which I do think high dex should account for something in initiative), from reading on enworld and here, there are these two possibilities:   Option 1 (based on kerbarian's post on enworld)   At the start of combat, everyone makes a DC20 initiative check. Those that pass get to act in the first round of combat, normally reserved for non-surprised combatants. As kerbarian put it "being incredibly quick is as good as surprising your opponents". That seems fair. And I like the fact that everyone has just 1 card in the deck which cuts down on "dead" cards. I want every card in the deck to matter if possible.   Option 2   At the start of combat, everyone makes a DC20 initiative check. Those that pass get a 2nd card in the deck. I see this working well too, though there could be a number of dead cards in the deck which could take away from the tension of drawing the next card. Not sure about this.   With either of these approaches, effects and class features that affect initiative can still have an impact. For example, the barbarian's ability that lets them have advantage on initiative means if I chose Option 1, barbarians have a great chance to be able to go in that first round. Same goes for people with the Alert feat (the +5 bonus to initiative will help them make that DC20 check more often that others). With Option 2, people with these abilties have more of a chance to go before someone with only 1 card, every round.   Anyone else have any play experience with an initiative deck in this manner? What has been the problems (if any) you have run into using an initiative system like this?
#35 solomani Aug 22, 2015 3:52:19	Hi Viddicus, sounds good.  For me I don't want a hybrid system like you describe for two reasons: Extra rolling means slowing down combat just to make a high dex character feel better.  As I explained to my players you already get plenty of benefits for having a high dex you don't need more.  Gameplay trumps realism in this case.  Sounds like you are creating new target DCs for your players to roll against.  That's more work for the DM which I can do without.   YMMV.
(Reply to #35) Viddicus	solomani wrote: