I wonder if there is any validity in making initative a players choice of Dexterity or Inteligence check. Dexterity has a great deal tied to it in comparison to other stats. Particularly Inteligence right now. Inteligence is an important aspect of many skills and is involved in illusions, but I think it still a little too much of a dump stat for non-skill people and wizards. Useful but not neccesary, to sum it up.
I think using inteligence for initiative checks could be naratively interesting.
So does this make sense or is just plain silly?
Let me know.
And, please no arguments about the comparitive strength of stats. I know I sorta brought it up, but really it isn't neccesary as my mind is made up.
Book smart, high-intelligence scholar types being the quickest in combat doesn't sit well with me realistically. But if that doesn't bother you, go for it.
Wisdom makes sense though, as it encompasses how well one pays attention and how good one's instincts are.
If I were making the game from scratch I'd have both dex and wis apply to initative. But the current game dislikes using two attibutes for one check. I guess that would be a slippery slope.
I house-ruled out Dex as the default ability score for Initiative at the tail-end of 3rd Ed.
Essential Attacks, Saves, and Skills is enough...
Why does anything have to modify initiative?
I suppose you could make a case for just about any stat to modify it... so why not just have them all cancel each other out?
Thalion94518 wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Hmmmm...
I agree that initiative should be a mental stat thing, not a physical stat thing. It certainly shouldn't be Dexterity-- not for any character. Doesn't matter how graceful you are, doesn't help you focus and react any quicker to the situation. I hate all this craziness about making Dexterity the god stat.
Now-- whether it should be Intelligence or Wisdom? Well... that's up for debate. You see, the line between Intelligence and Wisdom is very, very blurry.
You see, intelligence is used for your lore skills... so basically how much you know and how much you can figure out. So it seems like your overall mental fortitude, right?
Wisdom is used for perception, wilderness survival... okay, so that is awareness of your surroundings. So that seems like it is suggesting it is your mental quickness, right?
Now, if you want to force your will upon someone else through diplomacy, you use charisma. So that's like your emotional power?...
So you need to figure your way out of a charm spell or see through an illusion?... Well, both those use Wisdom. So why aren't you resising someone's ability to overwhelm your will using your mental fortitude instead of using your mental quickness?
And then things get even weirder when it comes to magic.
For wizards, Intelligence is the mental power (increases spell power) and mental fortitude (amount of spells you can cast). Clerics have the same thing with Wisdom. Sorcerers have the same thing with Charisma. The traits are merely used as an all-around spell power with each spell-casting class relying on a different attribute, but the nature of those attributes not at all affecting the spell-casting thematically.
Since things are so hopelessly murky as it is, I think I would give Initiative to the mental trait that non-casters seem to derive the least from. And that seems to be Intelligence. But I am totally open to the idea that it should be Wisdom. Except Wisdom is already the go-to mental defense for absolutely everything period AND your perception checks allowing you to avoid stealth.
Thalion94518 wrote:
I love this idea and would consider it as a house rule. But I know they would never change it in the official rules (probably not even as an option). Remember that 5E is all about getting the grognards back into the fold, so making everything look comforting and familiar is very important.
SHHHH, there there grognard, 5E is your friend. Oh look, its our old friend Initiative Dex bonus waiting to give you a warm hug!
I like getting rid of dex to init. Just roll a d20. You could say some classes (like rogue) are proficient at init could get to add thier prof bonus.
MechaPilot wrote:
I personally intend to use the system that's currently favored by Fate players, whereby the person who it makes sense would go first goes first and then designates who goes next. But when it comes to determining which person it makes sense to go first, all other things being equal, I'd probably compare, in this order: their Wisdom scores (are they more aware of their surroundings?), their Intelligence scores (are they better able to identify a threatening situation?), and their Dexterity scores (are they fast enough to react first?).
Scores rather than modifiers so that ties are broken faster.
That is, of course, all else being equal. If the encounter begins when a high-Dex character reflexively leaps away from a trap trigger, then obviously the high-Dex character should be the one going first.
The Edge of the Empire RPG by Fantasy Flight handles initiative in a way that, if converted to D&D 5, can be summarized in:
- If both sides are aware of the opponent's intentions, both sides roll Dexterity checks.
- If one side is ambushing the other, the ambushers roll Dexterity checks, while the "victims" roll Wisdom checks.
Emanuele_Galletto wrote:
Steerpike84 wrote:
Teggerdine wrote:
GilbertMDH wrote:
Thalion94518 wrote:
You could just do the AD&D roll a d6 for heroes and enemies. Whoever gets the higher number, that side goes first.
MechaPilot wrote:
Thalion94518 wrote:
Jenks wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Sorry I didn't read all of this thread, just the title.
My thoughts on initiative are simple, and canon-breaking.
Initiative should be based on Perception; which should be a 7th ability score.
Think about how easy this is, and how it will solve many problems and annoyences.
Roll for a 7th ability score. (Or figure it into the point buy system, or whatever.) Write down what you want for your Perception in the 'passive pereception' slot on the character sheet. Treat it like any other stat (ie: 10-11= +0, 12-13+1, 14-15+2, etc.) That mod is to your initiative, not Dex. Don't let Wis modify perception anymore. Roll against the new stat 'Per' instead of Wis for suprise, for anything you'd use the skill perception for. Still use Wis for Wis saves. Use Per for any skill or whatever where Wis, Int or Dex used to be used, but it made little sence, because there was no 'Per' stat.
Done and done. Now, clerics don't get an advantage on spotting an ambush over fighters, or anyone else. Now, Initiative isn't linked to Dex either. Rogues can still have any class skills that relate to acting first or whatever...
There really isn't much change to the game. But, it makes everything better, IMO. So, I'm using it. Any ideas for tweaks? More that new ability can do? I'll start a thread on it.
I would appreciate constructive input.
Not bashing this idea because it's not canonical. Save that for a "screw Seti" thread someone can start. 
I think I like Mecha Pilots idea alot more than mine. Hebitsuikaza and Saelorn had pretty resonable concerns about Inteligence used as an Initative bonus.
The idea's about choosing a side to go first or deciding who it makes the most sense for going first are good, but I worry about when I would have the enemies go. But, that system sounds much easier to run. I liked the idea of the PCs choosing who goes next, but I can see possible table problems.
I geuss I will just leave the initiative system as is for now.
I would like Group Initiative and Per Round Initiative (harsh) as options.
But of course dirt-easy to house-rule.