Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FrankJones Jul 12, 2014 21:57:25	Folks,   I've been puzzling over how to interpret, strictly, the rules for investigation and perception. In the past, the distinction has been between active and passive sensation of a thing (e.g., if you enter a room and are looking for traps you use investigation and if you enter it without actively looking you use perception).   That distinction is gone. Perception is now frequently used for active and passive searchs (note its use in finding traps on p. 61). Investigation gets used to make conclusions about what you've already seen (e.g., I see the bridge, investigation tells me if it will break under 100 lbs. of weight).    Can anyone, without speculating wildly, offer any clarity on the distinction? It looks like rogues will load up on perception rather than investigation now despite the flavor text for the class discussing intelligence as a secondary stat. I use perception to see if I can spot the trap. Does investigation play any role in that procedure? Do I use perception to spot the giant blade above my head but investigation to see that the weakened floor boards will burst dropping me onto spikes?   The uses of perception and investigation in the starter module suggest something like that to me.   I include the text from the Basic Rules below:   Investigation. When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.   Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
#2 pukunui Jul 12, 2014 22:02:51	The way I'm going to play it is that Investigation is for finding things while Perception is for finding creatures.
#3 RustedKitsune Jul 12, 2014 22:27:25	I would also rule that Investigation helps you piece together information. So three different pieces of information, gotten from three Perception checks, with an Investigation roll, could tell you a lot.
#4 akaddk Jul 12, 2014 22:32:28	RustedKitsune wrote:
#5 bawylie Jul 12, 2014 23:27:54	Perception gets you the evidence. Investigation tells you what the evidence means.    Perception: There's tracks here, cleverly hidden. Looks like boots.    Investigation: From the heel depth, I gather the person who made these tracks weighs 180 lbs. And the stride length suggests a height of around six feet. We can rule out dwarves, halflings, & elves. The prints are too narrow for Orcs. This was a human - and given the clever way he hid his tracks, he's a hell of an outdoorsman. Keep an eye open for snares and traps. Clever bastard.
#6 Brock_Landers Jul 13, 2014 0:12:05	bawylie wrote:
#7 Alter_Boy Jul 13, 2014 0:47:54	Using the NSA as an example, Perception checks is the raw data gathered from cameras and the internet; and Invesitgation checks are the meta-data, the analysts who look for connections, trends, and patterns in the raw data. Perception is good if you know what you're looking for but it's hidden; Investigation is good if you don't know what you're looking for but it's in plain sight.   Mind you, that does presuppose that Perception is going to be more important than Investigation, since making connections requires finding things to connect to start with.
(Reply to #5) Luciender	bawylie wrote:
#9 pauln6 Jul 13, 2014 8:38:10	Perception check to notice the secret door.  Investigation check to work out how to open it.
#10 Furion_Thamior Jul 13, 2014 9:41:09	As an Intelligence-based skill, Investigation is based on logic, reasoning, memory, and processing information.   Investigation is used to assess significance. It can be used for a through search of an area for items and features by recognizing things that are out of the oridinary based on logical expectations about the world. Investigation draws conclusions by making predictions: "I see X and Y, so Z must be there as well." For instance, you could use Investigation to find the hidden control panel of a trap by logically deducing its location based on the observation of its mechanical operations. You could search an area of find a secret door by recognizing the significance of the strange stonework. You could use investigation to locate the hidden entrance or exit of a dungeon in a geographical region based on knowledge about eh surrounding area "The tunnel is contructed in such a way that it's going to hit the surface around here..." By necessity, using Investigation is an active skill that takes time to perform. Investigating something usually requires an action of some kind. An investigation might turn up information that Perception could, but not nearly as quickly. On the other hand, perception won't help you draw conclusions or discover things that you can't see or hear.   As a Wisdom-based skill, Perception is based on intution, awareness, and sensation.   Perception is used to assess presence. It is used to hear the goblins sneaking up on you, see cutpurse trying to mug your friend, or notice assassin hiding behind the curtains. Perception reveals immediate information about the area based on what you can see and hear at first glance. "You see X, Y, and Z hidden behind the couch." Using Perception can happen passively. When used actively it might not always require an action to perform. If you're using Perception for more than one round, it's probably because you're monitoring an area for changes over time, not because you're trying really hard to find something -- that falls under the realm of Investigation. Perception provides immediate sensory information and can reveal mintue details, but can't help you determine whether or not something is actually important or relevant -- only that it's there.
#11 demon_idol Jul 13, 2014 10:42:09	How are people going to use these two skills, plus proficiency with thieves' tools, when it comes to finding and removing traps? Will it vary depending on the trap?   Here are some archtypical traps. How would you handle the use of the two skills and tool set for each?   A locked chest with a hidden, poison needle in the lock. Anyone traying to fiddle with the lock, gets jabbed by the needle.   Concealed 10 foot by 10 foot wide pit in the floor that is activated when 200 pounds of weight is placed on it.   An airtight door behind with is a room full of poison gas, contained under pressure, that rushes out if the door is breached.   An archway with an elaborately carved, magical, black crystal eye mounted at its top. The eye has true seeing and fires a disintigration ray at anyone coming with 30' of it who doesn't make a special signal with their left hand.   A room whose floor is painted to be a giant game board. The statues in the room are the game's pieces. The status will animate and attack unless the room is traversed in a manner consistent with the rules of the game, and so that by the rules of the game no attacks be the enemy pieces would be allowed.
#12 bawylie Jul 13, 2014 10:48:52	Perception notices the trap.  Investigation reveals how the trap works and what is likely to occur when the trap is sprung (also likely how it can be disarmed).  Thieves' tools are used to try to disarm the trap.    So you could have 1 guy doing all this. Or maybe 3 players help each other.    "Hey I found a chest. Oh wait, it's trapped." "Hmm. Looks like there's a springload mechanism here. It'll deploy once you open the chest. But interfere with the spring..." "Got it. And I've just the tool to clip that spring out.  Hang on."
#13 Arithezoo Jul 13, 2014 10:55:59	The way I think I will do it:   Perception is more passive (the reason you have a Passive Perception).  It relates a lot more to what the DM will simply tell you about what your character sees, hears, smells, feels, etc.  When your character walks into a room, you don't have to ask, "What do I see, hear, smell, etc"...it should be assumed that your character is always doing those things.   Active uses for Perception are for when you want to get a bit more specific, but you still don't really know what you are looking for specifically.  "I scan the treeline."  "I listen at the door."  In other words, "I focus my senses on something, do I notice anything else?"   Investigation is when you have a more specific, active goal in mind.  "I closely examine the lock, looking for any traps or concealed mechanisms."  "I examine the area around the secret door, looking for a way to get it open."   I think the trick is to avoid making Perception the catch all.  Perception might allow you to notice the secret door or the trap (or perhaps just clues pointing to the existence of a secret door or trap), but to learn more you need investigation.   A very careful rogue would be fine using just Investigation, because they wouldn't blunder into anything.  The best rogues would have good Investigation AND perception.
#14 AquaticSpaceChicken Jul 13, 2014 11:10:15	Is it intended in the game that two checks need to be made before one can attempt to disarm a trap-- first a Perception (Wis) to find the trap, then an Investigation (Int) to identify the kind of trap? Not saying that's a bad thing, just wondering if the designers meant it to run that way.
#15 bawylie Jul 13, 2014 11:12:09	I don't think it's intended at all. They're just different approaches to a challenge.    Much as you could pick a locked door or kick the damn thing in.    Or use them to synergize
#16 jaelis Jul 13, 2014 11:14:23	I think I'll play it that if you're looking for something specific in a specific place ("I search the chest for traps"), I'll use investigation. If you're just looking for or noticing something unexpected, I'll use perception. So in all of demon_idol's examples, it would depend on what exactly the players say they want to do.
(Reply to #14) AaronOfBarbaria	AquaticSpaceChicken wrote:
(Reply to #15) AquaticSpaceChicken	bawylie wrote:
#19 Rastapopoulos Jul 13, 2014 12:18:46	If you're familiar with 3rd Edition:   Investigation = Search Perception = Spot + Listen   If you're familiar with 2nd Edition:   Investigation = something like the Thief's find traps skill, but for anything, not just traps. Perception = something like the Thief's hear noise skill, but also including sight and other senses other than listening.
#20 Tony_Vargas Jul 13, 2014 12:22:00	bawylie wrote:
#21 bawylie Jul 13, 2014 14:48:29	You read any Holmes stories lately?
#22 ankiyavon Jul 13, 2014 15:37:06	You see a chest.  You want to know whether or not it is trapped. Perception:  Guys I can see the needle.   Investigation:  The lid of the chest is a hollow cavity filled with occasional pieces of metal.  I conclude that it is likely trapped.
#23 Psikerlord Jul 13, 2014 15:46:00	perception spots traps, secret doors and ambushes at a glance. investigation allows you to actively search for clues. any clues you find might also allow you to infer that ambushers are hiding nearby, that a chest is trapped, or that there is a secret door. I think there is a lot of cross over, one is just more reactionary and "always on", the other requires time but can reveal a greater or lesser amount of useful information, depending on the situation. I will be pretty flexible with both. I would rather that than perception overshadowing all other skills. I would have preferred a clearer explanation of the two, or a straight up indication that these two skills may cross over...?
#24 SwampDog Jul 13, 2014 17:06:02	I differentiate between the two the same way I do with wisdom vs intelligence. As you are about to cross the bridge, you notice a wire trap about 10 feet ahead.     Intelligence tells you how the trap works, how much pressure might set it off, etc.   Wisdom tells you a good reason why the trap was put there, who might have done it, etc.   Perception = detect   Investigation = extrapolate and conclude.
#25 Noon Jul 13, 2014 16:48:22	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#26 Ahglock Jul 13, 2014 22:50:25	bawylie wrote:
#27 sleypy Jul 14, 2014 3:52:46	I'll be using Perception somewhat like bawlie.   Perception = Notice evidence Investigate = Understand evidence   So finding tracks, sounds, pressure plates, and gut feelings will be perception. Investigate (or Lore) would let you know who made the tracks or sounds, what the pressure plates is used for, but wouldn't help at all with gut feelings.    The big difference is perception keeps your from stumbling into a pit trap by accident, but you cannot investigate something  when your unaware of it. Investigate would help you get passed an overly complex pressure plate puzzle trap, however perception doesn't help much because your fully aware of the trap and it is still a problem.