Seems business as usual.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?412324-Updated-Chris-Sims-amp-Jennifer-Clarke-Wilkes-Let-Go-From-WotC
Just when you thought they couldn't trim the size of the D&D team any more. 15 becomes 13 and a cancelled splatbook. D&D design team around 1/3rd the size of a certain other RPG company known for making adventure paths.
Cancelling the adventurer's handbook is I'm sure a big mistake on their part. As for the "layoffs", based on past layoffs, I'm just surprised it wasn't more and sooner.
Was Adventurer's Handbook announced? That is, was it cancelled or simply not advanced past concept stage?
bawylie wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Whether it was layoffs or voluntary isn't made clear. According to the very link you gave us, layoffs haven't happened since 2011. These could very well be due to attrition, rather than actual layoffs. It would be nice for all to withhold judgment until the truth is made clear if these are voluntary or layoffs, as that information will be known eventually most likely.
Zardnaar wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Btw, the adventurer's handbook was never officially announced, therefore, it wasn't cancelled. People who prefer it as one or two books are going to come to the same opinion regardless of facts, but the fact remains that it was never announced and thus never cancelled.
bawylie wrote:
D&D edition with no splat books on relase schedule is no edition for me.
Looks to me that D&D 5E is R.I.P.
bawylie wrote:
I think I read somewhere that some of the content of Adventurer's Handbook was getting rolled into another product and some would become a free PDF.
I prefer that they are taking a much slower rate at production. No matter the rate of them giving new products to sell, there will be a very vocal group against it. There also will be those for it who may or may not be as vocal.
Pathfinder releasing tons of books is a reason I will never, ever play Pathfinder. That's too much content at once. I want to be able to read and absorb all of the content, not have it come out at such a rate that I couldn't even possibly read through it all, much less play through it. They've also repeatedly stated that their former very fast rates of putting out new books was very bad for the brand.
How their current rates work remain to be seen and everyone is merely giving conjecture and speculation at this point.
Timborama wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
TheLyons wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
bawylie wrote:
bawylie wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but it's totally clear to me that the layoffs and cancellation of products were due to how they handled hit points in this edition. There can be no other explanation.
Shasarak wrote:
Ill tell you what else. I've seen D&D on the game shelf at Target. Haven't seen PF there. These companies aren't aiming the same direction, let alone the same target.
#seewhatididthere?
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
I thought they were taking submissions for AL...
Dang, man.
bawylie wrote:
bawylie wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
iserith wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
mellored wrote:
CCS wrote:
Two words: Botched Terrasque
You forgot to say they sadly shook their heads before returning it to the shelf.
Zardnaar wrote:
Gunthar wrote:
Really though, on FLGSs - maybe that's not the end-game of their marketing strategy. Bc while FLGSs are a gold mine, they pretty much don't grow. The customer base is steady, however - so maybe theyre like a goose that lays golden eggs. Very nice.
But what if one golden egg laying goose isn't enough?
For instance, I don't like FR. And I don't read any D&D novels. But I got my son the Drizzt anthology and he's eating that right up (he's 10). And while he's into magic, Pokemon, video games, d&d, & these novels - he's now saving his cash for the D&D board games. And he wants his own PH.
Shasarak and I may not be the target demo, bc we only poop out 1 golden egg every so often. But the brand is bigger - and that may be the plan. "Sorry Zard, sorry Shas, Sorry Bawylie, (FFSAA, get lost), but we already counted on and got your $ - now we're going after someone else."
Zardnaar wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
TheLyons wrote:
Does anyone know what business model they are going for?
3.5 and Pathfinder fell into a bit of a trap, the same one FR fell into actually: too many books make it hard for anyone who falls off the RPG wagon for a couple of years to catch back up, and the amount of effort it would take seems so daunting that it's discouraging to a lot of folks who'd otherwise be inclined to give it a shot. At the same time, when you have a dedicated base of customers, there is a temptation to throw in a splatbook or twelve, because you know a some segment of them would pay for some additional crunch and fluff to get their favorite PCs power level up/better describe his or her backstory in ever-increasing detail.
Definitely D&D needs to sell something to somebody to survive, and they can't count on the audience for D&D keeping sales of the three core books high indefinitely and yet they need new players to keep the game alive in the long term. If you are going to inaundate people with material, it alost has to be largely optional stuff, to avoid overwhelming potential new players.
So I'd imagine a newsplatbook would tend to have better overall sales numbers than any optional or DM-only material would, but the hidden cost is that they accumulate on your system like barnacles, eventually damaging the brand's appeal to new customers.
Adventures are one product they could sell that should continue to be popular, but those only get sold to DMs (and so many DMs turn their noses up at published adventures, so only ome DMs). Still it's a good market. I can imagine them having a go at fleshing out their existing campaign settings in 5e, because while the market for those may be just as limited (or even more limited) there may be demand enough among the diehards to sell a few boxed sets for Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms and the like by the people who just looved those settings in their youth. New books of monsters and treasures would aslo work. It would all be more optional content, mostly for the DMs, and it could all be done via outsourcing with some editorial control at the WOTC level. I don't know what their actul bsuiness plan is, but if I were them I would license out the right to develop a wide variety of products (including a possibly annual or semi annual splatbook and new compilations of monsters, though i'd be more likely to do those inhouse) while retaining a degree of editorial control. The licensees can then use any of the WOTC excludive content from teh core rulebooks and things done in house, since that helps drive sales of those items.
That said, the economics of this industry have always been a bit of a mystery to me. Maybe, now that the Monster Manual is out, their best play is to announce that the 6th edition is in development.
Zardnaar wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
CCS wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
What do you know. The same two or three names posting chicken little comments about the sky falling. The rest of us are enjoying a manageable release schedule.
Really bummed to hear that two WoTC employes have been (likely) laid off. It's so corporate though... "Thanks for all the hard work guys, but looking at quarterly budgets states you are weighing in on the VPs bonus for next year and our projected Hasbro company value. Enjoy the free ride through the trapdoor technology we just recently installed for your exit!"
Speaking of trapdoor... Does anyone else think that code name Morningstar didn't work out because the creator went to WotC and asked for more money and then bailed when they likely refused? I didn't ever hear anyone say this or read any evidence of this, but what I did see is Trapdoor try to get code name Morningstar off the ground with a Kickstarter that tried to succeed with the ludicrous amount of $450,000. Obviously that failed. But seeing a request like that made me think that the creators of the digital tools fell out with WoTC over money.
That at thought in mind, the company originally had a projected business model that included digital tools. With the fall out that's projected money unaccounted for! No wonder their (likely) letting heads roll. Did greed cost the company in this way? Just some theories running through my head based on what I see. Of course, if Morningstar had a falling out because of a request for more money, that'll never be said by anyone ever. But read between the lines, it might just make sense.
I love 5th ed. and I really hope things turn around.
Who knows why they were let go, not us and the pessimist in some of you think it's doom and gloom, I don't how you wake up in the morning and turn on the news and shudder at the terrible world around us. The PHB is still selling well, spot point in time today is still, 6 months after it was released and is still inamazons top 100 books sellers. The PHB is still number 1 in gaming book, selling more than the number 2 DM screen. So before we start looking for the big comet of doom that you think is falling on the state of Washington and targeting the WoTC building specifically, think that maybe they didn't need the 2 positions, consolidated job responsibilities into the remaining work force and be a better company financially. Maybe the jobs werent amounting to 8 hours of work a day in the position and like above, consolidated it. Who knows but it's not the end of the world and we cant draw any conclusion from the 2 layoffs beyond just know they were let go.
did you guys say the same thing when the lead designer (heinsloo) and the project guy of 4e were let go after 1 year 4e was released?
Cyber-Dave wrote:
EthanSental wrote:
I understand it, I'm in corporate america with a company that employees about 500k people, I'm over 500 at my plant in the atlanta area. It's 2 people, do we know the actual number of people employed at WoTC, in the D&D line specifically, not some en world, I'll look a the inside cover of a book and think that's the total number of people employed analysis? I doubt it. Either way I wish Chris the best as I enjoyed watching him on the D&D game podcasts. He will land somewhere job wise that turns out to be even better for him in the near future!
As before - time to roll some dice in a 5e campaign, great stuff! In fact I'll preorder 2 copies of the elemental book when I can and pass along the second copy to a table mate to read.
EthanSental wrote:
TheLyons wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
EthanSental wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
I'm also in favor of the slower release of higher quality products.
I also think that the quantity of products will increase once a licensing plan is finalized; I just hope they don't take too long to get that in place.
Maybe if WotC would stop being so stingy with their game system license (or whatever they call it) and give it up ASAP, 3rd party publishers could get on making 5e adventures, setting books, splats, etc.
Then, everyone is happy. Players who want tons of extra stuff will get it, 3rd PP's can cash in on 5e, and WotC's small crew can take their time with their 'official' books.
That's never good news. Best wishes Chris and Jennifer.
CCS wrote:
JefferyKnight wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Reinhart wrote:
Reinhart wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Without knowing why Chris & Jennifer are no longer with WotC, we can only wish them the best, and say thank you for their contributions.
While the Adventurer's book was not officially announced, it was a subject of serious discussion. And more discussion.
IMO, Core 3.5 is a great system, but as others have noted, sufferred from bloat. Same reason I looked at, but passed on PF. I'm not into 600 page players handbooks, plus thousands of other pages of stuff to wade thru. I did not play 4 much, so my groups stayed with 3.5.
When 5 came out, I jumped right on it, and I still think its the best version ever produced. Within this thread, though, the most positive thing I note is unlike so many stupid corporations, WotC is actually asking its customers what they want in the form of polls and surveys. Based on what I'd seen of the results of the poll, the 3 things most wanted are
- an OGL
- Electronic Tools
- Source Books
The 3 least wanted are
- Another genre (horror, sci-fi settings)
- brand new settings
- additional rules
The call for AL submissions is still open. I attended one AL, but the lack of social bond between players turned what is a great social game to me, into a variation of a MTG tournament. Once the LE Paladin joined the group, my cleric and the other cleric's character priority became to do everything possible to tear his faith down and convert him back to the true faith, which broke the entire group up. I guess its ok if you're a metagamer, but I don't see the AL ever working for real role-playing.
WotC asking for feedback, and slowing things down until they know how we want to progress the empire, is exactly the right step. I think one of the great things about earlier versions of D&D were the content, and modules, both from TSR and from many 3rd party companies. To use an analogy, the core rules are the DVR - what we need now is content. The desires based on the poll seem to support the interest in getthing the OGL done so more 3rd party companies can publish content, and more tools and source material for us to leverage.
The best thing we can do right now is make our voice heard by WotC. Let them know what what direction we want the empire to go in.
Aside from that, I wish Chris and Jennifer well.
Reinhart wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
CCS wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
I think Reinhart basically has it correct. WotC has no idea on how to make good money off of D&D as an RPG outside the core books so they aren't even trying. Extremely minimal risk with low expectations so you can't possibly miss projections.
I'd be happier with that strategy if the contract, licensed, or non-core in-house products were actually really good. HotDQ and RoT have received tepid reviews. The digital offerng fell apart. The two DM screens redeived poor (from GF9) or mediocre (from WotC) reviews. The spell cards are decent if expensive but required a second printing to fix the lack of concentration on the cards and subsequently received medicocre reviews from many (I bought them and like them, though). And in any case they are hard to find in stock.
Reinhart wrote:
Kram-Odlog wrote:
Kram-Odlog wrote:
Reinhart wrote:
CCS wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Mind_Flayer_Monk wrote:
Thanks Reinhart, great answer.
Most of what I know about Hasbro is from the book Toy Wars (which was written before Hasbro purchased WotC) and the Hassenfeld's approach to the industry.
More info it was a layoff.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?413480-And-then-there-were-8!-On-Chris-Sims-and-Jennifer-Clarke-Wilkes-Layoffs
8 people working on the D&D game.
Zardnaar wrote:
CCS wrote:
If WOTC chose to spend more money than they earn, then the game could suddenly get killed by management leaving a splash book series unfinished. I feel that this happened to WFRP3, and I still hold a grudge against the publisher.
I like the idea of printing one small adventure path at a time. That makes the collector in me feel safe, and it encourages me to keep investing in the game. If WOTC should suddenly choose to reprint all the settings at once, then I would feel uneasy and discouraged.
Well unfortunately I've seen many youtubers who stream their games go back to pathfinder once getting through the very minimal D&D 5e stuff that has been released.
I'll probably stick with it for a while, but I can't imagine it being my core hobby investment if it doesn't release enough products to keep me interested (doesn't have to be splat books, but adventure paths and setting stuff). Even if I don't ever use a book, I like buying them and reading them, and I much prefer usable content over artwork. In fact I've had to turn to older edition DMGs and the SRD to fill all the wide gaping holes in 5e.
I see your point. It would be nice to focus on cheaper printing and a higher output of adventures.
But then again I don't think that the average D&D customer plays once a week, so the average customer will probably run out of material much later than some of the youtubers.
By the way it would be nice to allow hobbiysts to officially stamp an adventure as "D&D 5ed fan material" as long as they don't charge money and provide material from the books. That would make it easier to find adventures on the internet.
Zardnaar wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
One thing i do wonder about is the following.
If they where planing to do a full book at some point, what where the things they wanted to put in it.
The things they mentioned that will be in the web thing they will release, genasi race + new spells and magic items from the upcoming adventure, to me seems to little content for a whole book.
I would love to know what kind of ideas they were playing around with for the adventurers handbook, before they decided not to put it on the release secdual.
JohnLynch wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
If you have time to argue here about layoffs at WOTC, you have time to write a game. Especially if you have any exp as a DM whatever.
bawylie wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Turn out consciously antagonizing your existing edition's (4e's) players, trying to turn the clock back to 1982, and failing to have a set of online tools wasn't a great business decision?
Who would have guessed?
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
If you have time to read an adventure you have time write an adventure. If you run more then one game and can't read or write a diffrent adventure for each group, then you're taking on more then you can handle. Thats on you not the puplisher. I only use PF adventures to convert to 5e now and their equipment guide for more spending options.
Hurin88 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Hurin88 wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Cyber-Dave wrote:
I haven't been able to find enough players for 5e online. Posted on three communities.
Never had this issue with 3e (found players lining up to play), or 4e this close after launch.
Maybe it's because people are wrapping up other campaigns, but again, it feels like more people are going back to pathfinder as their "default" game and only dabbling in 5e.
Zardnaar wrote:
I hope the two people who got laid off find some good work.
For the people wanting a bunch of stuff now, play the 3.5 Edition house ruling the 5 Edition stuff you want in. Give WotC a few years to get the optional material out, and then move over to that edition. If they release a pretty open OGL, third parties will come in and generate a lot of good stuff like they did for 3.5 Edition.
DaveDash wrote:
+1!!!
Well written there!!! 
I'm like you, haven't played since 4th, didn't like it. Having a ball with 5th! I'm running LMoP for a second group, and just picked up the GHOSTS OF DRAGNSPEAR CASTLE PDF for another campaign Im starting-up for the Daggerford area.
Good times!
joeburgos wrote:
Torg_Smith wrote:
seti wrote:
Seahawks are doing great too; an interception doesn't mean that much anyway.
arderkrag wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Shirebrok wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Not wanting to DM and/or having to convert an adventure is also fine. Simply say "I don't want to" rather than "I don't have time in my busy schedule."
I haven't DM's Pathfinder since 2013. I've considered it, but given how difficult it was at the time I'd rather do anything else (at this time) except prep a Pathfinder adventure. That's a personal preference though. It's not because I'm too busy, I will happily prep campaigns for 5th edition (until I settle on one). I'll do that all day long. But that's because I want to. Saying "I'd rather be prepping this latest Castles & Crusades adventure I've bought and run my group through it using the C&C rules" is a perfectly valid reason to not want to prep/convert a 5th ed adventure. But at least be honest about what your preferences are rather than using vague excuses that change with the wind.
JohnLynch wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
I play for about 10 hours per week, then spend another 6 hours or so prepping (mostly converting content). That's basically 100% of my free time.
I'm not close to being sick of 5e yet, but that is also because I haven't played D&D in a few years.
I would like to see some more adventures (setting neutral) and a campaign setting asap though, because I really can't be bothered homebrewing this time around.
DaveDash wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
joeburgos wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Torg_Smith wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
OK, so that's THREE people being hired, after two people were laid off. First, licensing. Second, communication. Third, producer.
We're now UP on the total number of WOTC employees working on D&D, since the layoff of two people happened.
What will the naysayers and doomsdayers say now?
Anyone else get the email from WOTC looking to hire?
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Yeah, they are replacing content people with suits. I am not sure how to take this.
We still have to see what kind of third party licensing they are going to do. WotC isn't the only game in town, so they may be working to weather out that reality and remain profitable. I will just keep an eye on it.
I'm sorry, but a D&D edition who hasn’t splatbooks… I mean, now it’s kinda reasonable, but this… Nah.
Shirebrok wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Elfcrusher wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Ranthalan wrote:
bawylie wrote:
Mmmm. A nice oberoni sandwich with marinara and provolone... Yum!
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Oops. Sorry. Maybe I should have just grabbed the sandwich and ran around the corner with it...
Except Bawylie houseruled you get bologna on a miss.
Gunthar wrote:
bawylie wrote:
5e is simple enough that you can almost convert a module on the fly as you are running it... you will have to feel out the challenge levels but it all converts from other editions really easily. I got the books about a week ago and I am already converting Pools of Radiance for fun.
I like fifth edition alot BUT i have to say, i thinkt hey made armor and hps too low, given fifths damage, holy cow are pcs overpowered relative to monsters and the cr guides dont even come close to being a represenative challenge.
Daydreamer80 wrote: