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| #1pukunuiNov 08, 2014 3:19:05 | Hi all,
Wouldn't it be cool if WotC published an even simpler version of the new D&D ruleset for the under-12 crowd? They could call it "Junior D&D". I think the 5e rules have a simple-enough framework; you just need to strip away some of the complexity, particularly in the classes and spells and such. Maybe throw in some of 4e's visual cues (like the color-coded powers) to make it more kid-friendly.
My nine year-old daughter is really keen to play D&D. Back when the 5e PHB first came out, I helped her make an elf ranger, and we played a few sessions. She could handle the RP stuff and rolling the dice and all that, but she found all the class abilities and that a bit too much for her. As a result, our game kind of fizzled out.
I've been trying to find a more kid-oriented RPG to play with her instead, but so far I haven't been able to find one that does everything I want. Well, that's not entirely true: there is one - James Stowe's Sidekick Quests - but it's only in a semi-playable state right now, and unfortunately it doesn't look like he'll be finishing it any time soon. All the other ones I've looked fall short in some way - not enough math (RPGKids), little-to-no character advancement (Hero Kids), not enough variety (Little Wizards), and so on.
I recently bought a copy of the old AD&D 1e module, N4 - Treasure Hunt. While the module works perfectly as a tutorial, I have no interest in using the 1e rules to teach my kids how to play D&D. That being said, I'm not sure I want to use the full 5e rules either, which is what has got me thinking about what else I can do.
Since I haven't had much luck so far finding a suitable RPG for kids, I'm thinking I may just have to try my hand at stripping down 5e so it'll be simple enough for my girls to understand. (In case it matters, they are six and nine). I've even wondered if 4e might be a better edition to use to teach my kids, since it's more visual and uniform (the class powers are nice little self-contained, bite-size pieces with wonderful color coding). I'm aware of the Heroes of Hesiod adventure, but it's basically just a one-off, so it doesn't really suit my purposes that well. The FATE and AGE systems also have potential but would involve a lot more work at my end adventure-wise.
Feel free to offer some suggestions or brainstorm along with me. It's kind of late and I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. On the one hand, it would be nice and easy if I could pick up something like Sidekick Quests and just start running it. Very little work on my part. However, it could be quite fun trying to simplify 5e or whatever so that it's easier for my kids to grok.
That's all for now.
Cheers, Jonathan |
| #2Luis_CarlosNov 08, 2014 3:38:47 | Yes, I understand you.
My suggestion is a board game, maybe with the tittle "Endless Quest", with a simple and d20, easy to be learnt, and a gameplay like from the 90`s Hero-Quest board game. |
| #3pukunuiNov 08, 2014 3:48:27 | Thanks for the suggestion. A board game isn't what we're looking for, though. They can handle the imaginative play of a real RPG, and I've got heaps of minis I can use to help them visualize what is going on in combat and the like. It's just a matter of finding a ruleset that is simple but also requires some basic math and allows for some character advancement. |
| #4ZardnaarNov 08, 2014 15:43:10 | Its just the way to go with d20 based D&D. I would use BECMI and house rule it to ascending ACs or a clone like Basic Fantasy RPG. THey will get her used to the concept of rolloing dice, RPing and adventures and introduce her to 5E once she has the basics down in a few months.
Core rules are here. http://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html
Have a look at it as I said it is very very basic and uses ascending ACs unlike BECMI.
I have the dead tree format of BFRPG as well and it is 122 odd pages so I could boomerang it up to you in Auckland just post it back when you are done. It cost me a massive $5 with free postage on Amazon earlier in the year.
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| #5gregscNov 08, 2014 15:40:27 | I was also going to suggest bfrpg. My kids loved that game. |
| #6pukunuiNov 08, 2014 15:53:00 | Honestly, Sidekick Quests looks like it has everything I want. I just wish it was in a fully playable state. All one can really do with it right now is take the pregens and make some stuff up. He is putting out a "starter quests" pack soon, which will help, but there still won't be any character generation or advancement rules until he finishes the full rules (and who knows when that will be). |
| #7OrwellianHaggisNov 08, 2014 16:02:22 | Would simplifying the language work? Wizards don't have spell slots and spells per day and concentration etc, they know so many spells and can cast from their books without other considerations. Sorcerers, basically, without the wild magic. Clerics work like paladins, simplified. I realise this isn't a great suggestion. I'm not a maths gadgie, I'm just trying to help. Alternately, and this might not be what you want if it's a learning experience as well as a hobby, you could just list her possible "sanctioned" actions (e.g. class abilities) and you as DM handle the mechanics. Or your wife handle character mechanics while you concentrate on the DMs jobs. |
| #8pukunuiNov 08, 2014 16:49:36 |
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| #9setiNov 08, 2014 17:40:12 | I think it'd be a great idea for WotC to do that. (Publish a D&D lite, not a board game, for kids/people who just want to play much more casually.)
I liked how the board game Castle Ravenloft simplified 4e, but, as you said, you don't want a board game. Something like that, for 5e, would be a good idea, IMO.
A cool element of it would be, if possible, compatability to the 'real' game too. So, you could move effortlessly between them, and also add complexity as the kids wanted it.
There's gotta be a market for this too. Lots of D&D players are parents now, and (unlike the thesis of another thread) D&D shouldn't necessarily be 'family friendly' re: artwork, text, ideas, etc. but there should be a kids/starters'/casual version with even more simplified rules, simpler classes/class abilities, character creation, etc. |
| #10BRJNNov 08, 2014 20:09:03 | I played a one-off scenario in v3.5 with some of my son's friends (5th grade) then several sessions of Basic D&D with my son. Then he decided he wanted to create a full-out 4e character and transfer to that rule set. |
| #11Regin_VargtassNov 08, 2014 23:57:44 | I started a 3.5 ed campaign with my kids and two of their friends when they were aged 6-11 years. In my experience, it works well if you are prepared to explain and focus on what each character can do, and overlook how all rules and options are connected (or even available).
For the starting session, I also restricted the class choices to exclude any full caster - two years later, my son opted to multiclass from fighter to cleric, and the others started as rouge, bard and ranger.
Playing worked alright. As a DM, I needed to remind and suggest actions for the first two sessions, outlining possible outcomes, but always keeping the actual choice to the players.
I also adapted a success-oriented mode, where it was never my intention to kill a character, and they were also expected to succeef in their adventure. I built the campaign in such a way so that the characters were always the most powerful adventurers around, but their opponents could be both more powerful and scary.
Another aspect was that in character creation, I asked the players yo come up with a story on how they all knew eachother, why they were good friends, and why they were sitting around a campfire in the middle of the woods ...
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| #12DesrimalNov 09, 2014 8:01:38 |
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| #13ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 13:27:14 |
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| (Reply to #13)Desrimal |
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| #15WuzzardNov 09, 2014 14:15:45 | Play regular D&D, just don't give them detailed character sheets or have them build characters. They don't need to know all the detail to have fun telling you what their characters do and then rolling when you tell them to. |
| #16ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 14:20:51 |
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| #17pukunuiNov 09, 2014 14:30:43 |
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| #18ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 14:31:49 |
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| #19pukunuiNov 10, 2014 0:16:31 |
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| (Reply to #19)seti |
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| #21pukunuiNov 10, 2014 1:14:14 |
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| #22ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 1:26:57 | How about a very basic ad hoc gsaame with somehitng like +2 to hit, 1 number for the saving throw, no rela mechanics vs baddies that di in one 1, 2 if thye are tough and 3 if they are a BBEG.
Fighting man (PC) AC 16 (chain +shield) Saves +5 At 1 +2 to hit Hits 5
Kobold AC10 Saves +0 At `1 +0 Hits 1
Bandit AC12 Saves +1 At 1 +0 Hits 1
Evil Wizard AC 14 (magic vestments) At 1 bolt of energy 30' 1 to hit Hits 3
3 or 4 classes, no class features that can't fit in a sentence, no skills. Do you have any of the old fighting fantasy or Lone Wolf game books from the 80's? |
| #23pukunuiNov 10, 2014 1:28:57 |
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| #24ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 1:53:06 |
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| (Reply to #17)Timborama |
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| #26TimboramaNov 10, 2014 10:00:44 | Also, Zard, those books are SO 80's that it's AMAZING |
| #27dave2008Nov 10, 2014 10:08:05 | I started my sons (and their friends) on 4e when they were 6 and 8 and they had a blast (we played for 4 years and have been on about 1 yr break to start back up next year). I might suggest the essentials line of 4e as there are some simpler options that require less character choices.
4e really is kid friendly, the color coding, key words, icons, are all readily accessible to children and your basic choice comes down to what power to select, you can even get rid of feats and provide auto bonuses to attack and defense as you level to make it even more simple.
Also 4e makes it really easy to improvise. I ran a 4e session with my sons were we ditched powers just to see what it was like. They just described what they wanted to do (even spells) and I told them what to roll and what the damage and/or effect would be. With the table in the DMG it is pretty easy to keep that fairly balanced. FYI, my sons (and friends) ultimately preffered to have the actual powers, but it was a good exercise and new children might prefer the free-form approach. |
| #28ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 10:34:44 |
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| #29LashanNov 10, 2014 10:36:27 | Hard to get simpler than 5E. Just ignore feats. If you need simpler, then go with just the free PDF that came out. There are limited classes and such. That's probably the best bet. Maybe Ranger was too much? Make it a Fighter. |
| #30ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 11:07:50 |
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| #31Neptune0923Nov 10, 2014 12:22:44 | Kids 8-12 should be able to pick up D&D very quickly.
For younger kids the issue becomes ethics. Are they ready to "kill" things? I ran games for my kids when they were very young. The objectives were non-lethal, like rescuing a pet, or helping to find a missing friend that left clues. I have a problem with a 7-year old saying he/she wants to kill orcs. |
| #32pukunuiNov 10, 2014 13:05:42 | I found a game yesterday called "Faery's Tale". Very Tinkerbell-esque. Uses Mind, Body, and Spirit for the stats. The setting looks fairly rich and has both light and dark fey - the authors appear to have done their research. The only naff thing is the dice mechanic, which is basically just "roll 1-3 d6s and compare odds vs evens. If you get more evens, you succeed; more odds, you fail". There's an alternative, but it's just "1-3" is a fail while "4-6" is a success. You might as well just flip some coins instead. Sigh ...
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| #33ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 13:11:40 |
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| #34pukunuiNov 10, 2014 13:18:40 | I'll think about it. Those CYOA books are basically solo efforts, though, right? They don't seem like things you can play together as a group.
BTW, I do recall being into CYOA books back in the day. It's possible I read some fantasy ones, but I think they were mostly more of the Hardy Boys variety and that sort of thing. Possibly some sci-fi ones. Can't really remember. |
| #35ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 13:27:15 | Yes they are solo books but the AD&D ones are for 1 DM and 1 player. IDK if they are any good or not I picked them up earlier in the year for $20 and thoguht I would add them to the collection. I often have look at 2nd hand book stores for D&D stuff, picked up a mint condition OA Kara Tur boxed set with 3 adventures in near mint condition for $20. I do not even like OA.
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| #36pukunuiNov 10, 2014 13:43:39 |
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| #37ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 13:50:56 |
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| #38SynjinNov 12, 2014 8:51:42 | Kids are smarter than most people give them credit for. I'm currently playing a game with 8-14 year olds, and the 8 year olds are keeping up just fine. Kids these days are raised knowing how to work iPads, Tablets, XBOs and PS4s. Their games level up with crazy amounts of customization and controls have numerous button combos. Not saying every kid is this way, and your mileage may vary of course, but so far so good over here.
That being said, if the DM has to remind them of what they can do each round, that's fine too. Print out cards that have the 10 actions available listed for them, etc. |
| #39IxidorRSNov 12, 2014 9:53:08 | Consider Dungeon World and other Powered by the Apocalypse games (but not Apocalypse World itself, it's got some age-inapproriate material). Dungeon World quickly became one of my favorites and is fairly intuitive. I've not tried it with anyone under 16, though, IIRC.
As far as 5E D&D being reworked, I think it's possible. Drop each race and class to have one ability at the start of the game. Don't worry about proficiences, just use the modifiers. Drop ability scores and use only ability modifiers. Gain one new ability per level. Spellcaster classes I'm not sure how to handle off the top of my head, but keep it simple.
EDIT: Actually, a good way to deal with spellcasters is a much smaller spell-list per class and all spells get better as you level. Gain one slot and spell per level, no spellcasting levels.
So you can grab Bless at level 1, and when you cast it, it boosts one creature. Each level, add a creature and/or increase boost. Maybe even more powerful spells could have less powerful starts. Wish at level 1? Sure, why not. A Wish is an easy concept to understand. But instead of getting crazy benefits Wish gives, you can only be granted smaller wishes instead.
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| #40pukunuiNov 12, 2014 12:05:55 |
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| #41MrHotterNov 12, 2014 14:43:59 | My daughter started at 8 with 4E. I had to 'dumb down' the rules to avoid things like blodied, AoO, flanking, and things that started to get too complicated. She liked the spell cards and since she was a Harry Potter fan she insisted on being a wizard. She loved the miniatures and dungeon tiles so she insisted on keeping them when we started 5E. I prefer the 5E since the combat goes faster and our games did not involve dungeon crawls or much combat.
She realy dosn't care about the character sheet much, so she lets me make her character and I level her up. She just needs to know where to look to find her skills when trying to figure out how to solve something.
I thought about using the DnD adventure system rules for monsters and players, but the characters only have two levels in that game. Looking back that probably would have worked since she has 3 characters and none have gotten past level 3.
Another game that is pretty easy to pick up and play in the Fantasy Flight Star Wars games. They have beginner boxes that make it easy to pick up and the rules are pretty much 'decide what to do and then roll the dice'. Of course it also has some mechanics to figure out with specialized dice. In our game with that I did not even buy anything besides the two Beginner Boxes (they have one for the smuggler type of game and one for the rebels). The beginner rules for that work well for a simple game.
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| #42pukunuiNov 12, 2014 15:04:26 |
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| #43NoonNov 12, 2014 16:35:28 |
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| #44pukunuiNov 12, 2014 17:24:14 | Yeah, it's not a bad idea. The Dragon Age RPG box sets include reference cards with the various stunts and the basic moves and such on them. It would be cool if WotC (or someone like GaleForce 9) did something similar for 5e. |
| (Reply to #42)Emanuele_Galletto |
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| #46pukunuiNov 12, 2014 19:59:03 |
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| (Reply to #46)Emanuele_Galletto |
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| #48pukunuiNov 12, 2014 20:18:09 | Oh OK. That does sound better. Thanks. Fantasy games definitely need levels. Sci-fi games, on the other hand, possibly not. After playing SWSE for several years, I came to the conclusion that the level-based d20 system was not a good fit for Star Wars, for instance. |
| #49sleypyNov 13, 2014 1:01:16 | I was doing the playtest with my 6 year old. maybe take a look at the first few playtest packets after they released the character creation rules.
Really though I don't think D&D is a good system to start if you think 5e is too complex. I would suggest fate core or savage worlds. They have much simpler and more uniform rules. Character creation is quick when you already have a character concept in mind. The character choices are straight foward and decisions can be made using natural language. |