Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Elfcrusher Dec 04, 2014 8:58:15	So now that I've read through the magic items in the DMG, which is really an important part of the book both in terms of impact and what a lot of us get the biggest thrill from, and I feel...let down.  The part that disappoints me is their decision to honor the first DMG by including essentially the original list of magic items, with (as far as I can tell) relatively few deletions and insertions.   Many of those items are, let's face it, just silly.  I've always assumed that Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson or one of that gang invented these items for their own campaigns, for specific situations, and then when they were compiling the first DMG they just threw in all their own nutty inventions.  If you were going to sit down and create a list from scratch, covering a range of abilities and types and levels and situations, it's hard for me to imagine that Apparatus of the Kwalish, Ioun Stones, Iron Bands of Bilarro, etc. would make it into the list.  (Prediction: I'm going to regret naming specific items...)   All through the playtest and into final release my inner grognard has been very happy about D&D's "return" (for the most part) to its older roots.  But even as a grognard I don't have any emotional attachment to many of those original items.  Sure, there a few truly iconic items that give many of us a nostalgic thrill (e.g. Deck of Many Things, Vorpal Sword), but they could have sprinkled just a few of those in there.   I would much rather have had them put the effort into a list of items that will get used in a large number of campaigns, and for a Christmas present they could have put all the silly ones into a free PDF.   In fact, 5e is supposed to be the best of all the previous editions, but the magic item list is almost 100% AD&D.  How hard would it have been to sit around the table with some beers and go through 30 years of magic items voting yea or nay?   Yes, yes, yes....I know that some people are going to say, "OMG Apparatus of the Kwalish is my favorite item ever!  I'm glad it was in there!"  But I find it hard to believe that item gets used in many campaigns.   I suspect...and it's a measure of my dissatisfaction that I'm turning to corporate greed conspiracy theories given that I've been defending WotC all this time...that their plan is the opposite of the free PDF.  The "useful" magic items, including lots of Legendaries and Artifacts...will be in a book we have to buy.
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 04, 2014 10:19:17	I find your post to be confusion, Elfcrusher. You say that these items are not really hitting the spot for you because they seem like they were invented for a specific campaign in which they were genuinely useful and interesting to have... so why have you not chosen to view the list of items present as inspiration to do that very same thing for your own campaigns, whether by inventing new items to fit your campaigns or devising campaigns with this items in mind so that they are as useful and intersting as you want them to be?   And for a bit of intersting coincidence, the apparatus of Kwalish, and ioun stones actually are some of my favorites, and make appearances in many of the campaigns that I have run over the years (the apparatus noticeably less so than the ioun stones).
#3 OrwellianHaggis Dec 04, 2014 10:41:43	Apart from Vorpal sword I've no idea what any of these items are (yet! My wife is getting me DMG for Christmas).   While I second Aaron's suggestion, I know it's disappointing to not have an official list for what you want.
#4 BoldItalic Dec 04, 2014 10:45:32	You are allowed to invent your own ...
#5 dmgorgon Dec 04, 2014 11:51:43	I have an emotional attachment to all of those items.
#6 pauln6 Dec 04, 2014 11:54:25	Most items are taken from classic fairy stories, poems, and fantasy books.  I like that.  They feel mgical from a story perspective and not just number crunching like 4e.    Downside is that someof the items that are clearly unbalanced could have been tweaked to make them awesome but not as unbalanced.  Attunable items should have non-attuned minor benefits to prevent attumement disappointment.  A bit more guidance on building items would have been nice too.  This is basically a teaser for one or more magic item supplements.  I'm ok with that but given the number of unbalanced items in this short section, it doesn't bode well for the editorial process in the future.
#7 Ath-kethin Dec 04, 2014 11:55:54	Elfcrusher wrote:
#8 dmgorgon Dec 04, 2014 12:13:02	There is no need for the DMG to balance magical items.   If you think it will work in your campaign use it.    I've often read through the magical item list just looking for items I can use in my game.    I've used all the items you've mentioned.  Heck, I even recal playing dungeon magazine adventures that made use of them.
#9 Elfcrusher Dec 04, 2014 12:35:29	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#10 Lawolf Dec 04, 2014 12:40:24	I've never really liked D&D magic items. This is just more of the same.    I'd rather have rarer more interesting items than the same old dreg we always get.
#11 Gnarl Dec 04, 2014 12:40:51	What other magic items from the 3e or 4e era would you have liked to see in the DMG? I don't remember any magic item from 3e or 4e being anything else than munchkin food. But maybe I didn't notice the nice fun colorful magic items created during that era because I was too busy looking for the powerful ones to spend my wealth per level on.   As a grognard, I don't have any particular attachment to any item either. I have found memories of characters dying because of decks of many things but that's about it.
#12 Mistwell Dec 04, 2014 12:56:54	I can't believe you called Ioun stones "silly" and not part of a balanced group of items.   They've:   1) Been in every edition of the game, including PF (except I think B/X); 2) Predate D&D, coming from Jack Vance in 1973, author of the source material for other things like Vancian Magic; 3) Are mentioned as part of many settings, and were the subject of numerous Dragon articles, and introduced in Issue #1 of Strategic Review, and were in Kobold Quarterly; 3) Spread power across a lot of levels with one magic item entry; 4) Cover a lot of both in-combat and out-of-combat issues with just one magic item entry.   How on earth can this be one of the things on your list? This is one of the most iconic, and one of the most utilitarian, magic items in the game.  Lemme tell yah, any vote, by pretty much any group of game designers working on a new version of D&D, would vote "Yea" on Ioun stones when it came up at the magic item discussion meeting.
#13 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 04, 2014 12:59:12	I wasn't meaning to say you couldn't make your own items, but I was meaning to point out that you weren't appreciating the value of such an extensive list of examples to help you with making your own.
#14 Elfcrusher Dec 04, 2014 13:06:47	Mistwell wrote:
#15 Elfcrusher Dec 04, 2014 13:08:11	Oh, and none of my criticism has to do with balance. Just aesthetics.
#16 Elfcrusher Dec 04, 2014 13:10:05	And I guess I have to acknowledge one change I really like: charges replenishing daily.
#17 Ath-kethin Dec 04, 2014 13:13:24	Gnarl wrote:
#18 Psikerlord Dec 04, 2014 13:16:23	I think the magic items are one of the best parts of the book. Most excellent!
#19 Uchawi Dec 04, 2014 15:11:15	I find it hard to pick any edition and state this magic item is the ultimate representation of <insert the edition name>. With that stated, I would like to see examples of different types of magic items from mulitple editions (the spirit of D&D), versus just choosing AD&D and calling it a day. Or with the limits placed on the DMG, then please develop a magic item creation book, complete with spells, rituals, and martial practices, to make magic items rich and varied, and to introcude something completely new (a 5e tradition).
#20 Eberronknight Dec 04, 2014 16:33:05	I like the old school magic items listed in the DMG because I can work off of those to create my own magic items.  I look at them as templates, sure they could have added new magic items we have not seen before but it's easier to create new things off the old ones.  My opinion of course.
#21 seti Dec 04, 2014 16:36:31	I like magic items I'd never use. They're great for inspiration. I usually make up my own, or significantly tweak existing ones anyway. The only thing sad about magic item lists (in any D&D edition) is players and DM's honestly thinking that's all you can use, make, find, buy, or get.   Also, I'm sure an item book is on their short list of something to publish in the future...Not to mention making up items that are only statted out in their published adventures. Because: money.
#22 guachi Dec 04, 2014 18:40:22	Elfcrusher wrote:
#23 EnglishLanguage Dec 04, 2014 19:50:52	pauln6 wrote:
#24 JohnLynch Dec 04, 2014 21:29:05	Apparatus of the crab got used in my last Pathfinder game and my current 5th ed game will likely feature two of them (modified to work in the Underdark rather than in the ocean).   In Pathfinder ioun stones are used for almost every character (home games have embedding rules, PFS have wayfinders).   They may not get use in your game, but they do get a fair bit of use in some people's games at least.
#25 Mecheon Dec 05, 2014 3:43:25	Heck, Ioun Stones are used the point of absurdity on a Neverwinter Nights PW I play (The maker of the server likes to make custom stuff, y'see. So they made an ioun stone system that works really well)   (I just stack the healing ones because oh god lowbie sorcs in 3E, so squishy)
#26 FFSAA Dec 05, 2014 9:14:47	If you don't like the DMG magic items, a splat book will likely be along soon to remedy that.
#27 Elfcrusher Dec 05, 2014 12:44:33	If they are just being used for "inspiration" then a 1981 copy of the DMG would serve just as well.   But...nevermind...I think I only saw one response that sort of agrees with me.  I'm in the minority here.   I'll go through Dungeon World supplements for magic item inspiration, I think.
#28 Orethalion Dec 05, 2014 13:15:21	Elfcrusher wrote:
#29 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 05, 2014 18:17:12	I think the benefit of seeing familiar items with revisions to their mechanics to match the 5e paradigm is being under valued by stating a different book would serve as well when crafting your own items meant to be used with 5e.
#30 Akodo_Akira Dec 05, 2014 19:23:02	If you can find a copy of MERPs Magic Item book: Treasures of Middle Earth: A comepndium of Magic Items, it has a ton of different magical items, from weapons down to simple tools, all with various magical effects. It's a totally different system, but they include a lot of Lore on the items and the history of each. Very cool, and could be transported with only a little modification.   I'm sure you could find a few PDFs somewhere.
#31 Zardnaar Dec 05, 2014 20:52:18	I thik AD&D had the best magic items and fits the spirit of D&D the best anyway even if I like d20 mechanics better than THAC0. 3E and 4E items were mostly just building blocks for powergamers and munchkins to spend their wealth on.
#32 ankiyavon Dec 05, 2014 21:48:08	I haven't read the list yet (getting DMG from Amazon), but I am actively happy that the list is mostly silly or utility items rather than grid-filling power items.     I really don't like the idea of seeing a list of magic amulets, a list of magic swords, a list of magic armors, and so on, all of which are explicitly designed to be useful to PCs.   Admittedly, though, my opinion may be colored by the fact that I intend to use my AD&D Encyclopedia Magica as a source for magic items in 5E.  I've always preferred items that feel like they were invented for a very specific reason; they have specific powers and aren't just generically useful.
#33 Grazel Dec 06, 2014 18:25:42	There's a good mix of utility, silly, and practical items. They removed needless iterations of increasing plusses on many items, and it's a wide enough mix to give a good basis for designing your own items (they even have some tables for sentient items and other options as well).   If you're curious about the list you can look at the magic item tab in my indexes spreadsheet  here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HXDqVa4plilwR4DQWJ1KYZUrinC3p5T3Sq8P9Bj76jo/edit?usp=sharing   It doesn't give a lot of details but gives the basics in a sortable way so you can get a feel for whats there, and where to find it.
#34 hunterian7 Dec 06, 2014 19:17:02	dmgorgon wrote:
#35 hunterian7 Dec 06, 2014 19:21:55	Mistwell wrote:
#36 Emerikol Dec 06, 2014 19:26:57	While I don't like everything they did with magic items in 5e, I do think they had some good ideas.   Just take the item from 1e and translate it to 5e.  My guess is it won't be that hard.   Oh and I love all the old time 1e magic items and I'm very emotionally attached to them.   But flavor and fluff is something I can steal.
#37 Ahglock Dec 08, 2014 12:03:38	I'm looking forward to my DMG arriving now. Yeah +x items might be needed to keep up on the power curve but they are boring as hell. Give me the silly items.
#38 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 08, 2014 19:55:52	Ahglock, the +x items aren't included for any "power curve". They are included because playtest feedback indicated a large enough portion of players like to have them
#39 Grazel Dec 09, 2014 0:07:51	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#40 Shasarak Dec 09, 2014 1:53:38	hunterian7 wrote:
#41 Arithezoo Dec 09, 2014 5:02:36	I completely understand, and I agree with you, Elfcrusher.  I think it would have been much better to include a wider spread of items and then release a pdf of Classic Magic Items (tm).  The rest of the system is a great melding of old plus new, and I think that makes the magic items stand out even more as a part that doesn't quite fit.    On the other hand, a very common complaint I hear about a certain edition is that it didn't have the Classic Magic Items (tm).  So it could be that for the majority of players, these items are part of what makes D&D, well, D&D.   The good news, for people like you and me, is how easy it is to just make your own items!  My current campaign has been going on for well over a year now, and I haven't used a single magic item from the book.   A few examples: - Sword that deals extra radiant damage on a critical hit, and extra radiant damage on every attack vs. undead - Staff that can enhance a spell 1/day (cast as if you used a spell slot 1 higher than what you actually used) - Red dragonscale cloak, grants resistance to fire and advantage on saves vs fire - Ring of force, can be used to create a globe of force that absorbs damage, or a blast of force that deals damage - Spiked Bracers that deal damage when you start a grapple, get grappled, or escape from a grapple - A mace whose head is crafted in the shape of the five chromatic dragons, all facing out.  It deals random elemental damage with every attack, more on a critical hit.   Oops, I lied, I have also given out a Ring of the Ram, because I have always loved it.  And Boots of Speed, because they are pretty cool.  But my point stands: just think about what magic items you find interesting, and make them!
#42 Emerikol Dec 09, 2014 8:18:22	Arithezoo wrote:
#43 ChrisCarlson Dec 09, 2014 12:04:02	Of the three magic items I handed out in the last adventure I ran (which came to a satisfying conclusion last night), all three were custom written-up by me*.   (*Influenced by, and garnered from, examples after browsing through my shiny new DMG.)     Hammer of Hephaestus Weapon (warhammer +1), legendary (may be attuned).   Thought to channel the divine skill of the god of blacksmiths himself, this all metal hammer is intricately carved and emblazoned with dwarven runes and celestial hieroglyphs. It disappeared nearly three decades ago and thought lost forever.   This hammer functions as a +1 magic warhammer to anyone who picks it up. But once attuned, it becomes a +2 hammer to its owner and grants the following additional properties: You gain resistance to fire damage. You gain expertise is blacksmith’s tools. Limitation: While attuned to this hammer, your base speed is lowered to 25. If it was already 25 or less, there is no effect.     Mask of the Serpent Lord Wondrous item, rare (requires attunement).   This mask appears to have been fashioned from the head of a very large, poisonous snake. Complete with imposing fangs.   While you are wearing this mask, you gain the following benefits: You have advantage on saving throws against poison and you have resistance against poison damage. Moving while prone does not cost you extra movement. As an action you can make a bite attack that deals 1d4 piercing damage. You can use Strength or Dexterity for attack and damage rolls, and you are considered proficient with the attack. Once per day, when you hit a creature with the bite attack from this mask, you can force the target to make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target becomes poisoned for 1 minute and suffers 2d6 poison damage. Side Effect: While you are wearing this mask, and it is attuned to you, you speak with a lingering hiss. You suffer disadvantage on Charisma skill checks, other than Intimidate.     Tortoise Shell Armor Armor (medium, breastplate +1), uncommon.   Finely crafted from the shells of sea turtles, or perhaps exotic tortoises, this breastplate makes its wearer at home in the water.   While wearing this breastplate you do not suffer the normal armor penalties to swimming checks, and you gain advantage on all skill checks made while swimming.
#44 MechaPilot Dec 09, 2014 22:50:00	@OP: You did mention one of my favorite magic items, the Apparatus of Kwalish.  That said, I can definitely see how it's too mech-y or steampunk-y for some campaigns so you won't get any real argument about it being silly or out of place in some campaigns from me.   Also, I share your aversion to orbiting Ioun stones.  A stone that orbits one's head would be very distracting as it floats through one's field of vision or peripheral vision.   I also like the change to charges that replenish daily.
#45 Grazel Dec 10, 2014 2:11:36	MechaPilot wrote:
#46 Bluenose Dec 10, 2014 23:01:49	Shasarak wrote:
#47 Cerakay Dec 10, 2014 21:56:32	I started playing with 2nd edition and went through 3.0.  Now I'm playing 5th and one thing I have noticed is that it feels like magic has been decreasing in every version since 2nd.  I still remember feeling like like my 2nd edition wizard character was weaker upon conversion to 3rd, and now I just converted him to 5 and he feels less powerful again (at the very least he has way less items he can use, thanks attunement.)  I miss the vast list of magic items from 2nd and well as some spells, like permanency.  Now in 5e, we have less magic items, less spells, more restrictions on magic items and a trend I keep seeing in forums of people arguing toward low magic campaigns.  For me personally, magic is what got me so fascinated with D&D and I primarly play a mage character.  I am really hoping that Wizards releases expansions with more items and spells.  I expect replies like "create your own"  or "DM your own rules", but that only works when I am running a game, which means I don't get to play with them.  With the rules leaning toward less magic, and the attitude of gamers who keep saying "magic is hard to balance so lets nerf it" , I have had a lot of trouble finding other gamers who will DM a high magic campaign.  Maybe thats just bad luck on my part.  What I do know is I've played with DM's who want to severly restrict magic, and DM's who use the books as a guide and dont want to relax rules, but I haven't played with a DM who is willing to allow more than whats in the books.  Except for me, but then I don't get to play (oddly enough this also applies to playing epic level campaigns).   I think that has more to do with the fact that it is easy to not use stuff from the books, but for fear of balance issues, its a lot harder to convince people to let you use your own custom stuff.  So long story short, I agree with the original post (except the silliness, i like specific unique items) and really hope Wizards adds more magic, both spells and items.  For those who don't want them, they can simply ignore them, and for those of us that do want more we can at least assume they are mostly balanced.  On a side note, since 1990 I have never heard any low magic DM's complain about, or throw away, all the cool magic stuff they get when I DM a game.  Funny how that works.
#48 Grazel Dec 11, 2014 15:00:59	Cerakay wrote:
#49 dmgorgon Dec 12, 2014 18:10:55	Cerakay wrote:
(Reply to #48) Cerakay	Grazel wrote:
#51 Grazel Dec 21, 2014 18:56:34	So you will never play a fighter because of the limited options?   I'm DM'ing HotDQ right now and here's the typcial combat for my PC's:   Fighter - swings with greatsword, maybe uses his second wind if really hurt, maybe uses action surge if desperate, if he can get a good lineup of enemies he'll use his breath weapon (he's a dragonborn). Barbarian - Swings with his battleaxe, for boss fights he'll rage Cleric - uses a cantrip, maybe a heal if another PC is low on hp Druid - mostly uses vine whip (cantrip), maybe a non-cantrip spell in limited situations.   Note that no wizard (or rogue) but they still mostly do one thing every round of combat, now the flow of combat is such that most of their combats last less than 4 rounds, with only a handful taking longer. They even took out one of the bosses in 2 rounds due to a creative use of the druid's spells (gust of wind knocking her back and down the chute in her room to the rest of the party).   So far the only magical items they've gotten is healing potions and they're fine with that. They're kicking serious butt without a single magical item.   I think you also missed my point. I'm saying that with 5e removing sale prices on magic items and putting them in the DMG it puts their distribution back in the DM's hands. 4e's method meant the DM had little control over how much magic was introduced unless he kept the PC's poor since they could just buy a magic item the way they bought any item.   I'm not saying the DMG is JUST for DM's but it's targetted at DM's and traditionally always has been. The PC player's really don't need to buy ANY book but if they do they should only need the PHB. The MM and the DMG are aimed at DM's and I'm sure WotC realizes that on average sales of the PHB will outnumber the other 2 about 4 to 1. It's actually a good move because unless you plan on being the DM you have a minimal financial investment to play (one book compared to 2-3 plus any adventures the DM feels like getting).   The world is the DM's world, but the player's should get some say. There's a balance that is needed though. If you cater too heavily to the player's you get PC's like the ones I ran into (back in 1e days and I let some friends bring in PC's from another DM): they were untouchable gods loaded with arsenals of artifacts and were only level 5. I ended that game after 1 session because they refused to even follow the published rules because their previous DM gave them anything they wanted. Of course it can go the other way with an unflexible DM with a set story in mind and who greatly limits the player's choices (stripping away most of the race and class options in the PHB, etc.). Both extremes are bad. A DM can still control their world and magic item distribution without alienating players. It works best if the DM puts forth the limits before play starts, so player's don't have expectations that end up unmet (like finding hoards of treasure, lots of magic items, earth-shattering wizard duels, a dragon around every corner, etc.) Ideally a DM will ajdust their world to fit the desires of the players within reason (I've quietly and gently shut down 2 of my player's constant attempts to build a kobold army by intimidating and capturing every kobold they fight).   As for attunement. It's a rule but the books already say that a DM CAN choose not to use it if they really want a high magic campaign. Also there's a LOT of magic items that don't require attunement to use. It's not like you get 3 attunement slots and that's all the magic items you can use. The default rules is also only one magic item per "slot" on the body (2 for rings) to keep players from piling up too many items. Attunement is to help maintain bounded accuracy since the rules are balanced towards no magical items at all. The tweaking of these rules should be in the hands of the DM and not the player. To say the players should have the ability to alter the rules for the table is like saying football players should be able to set the rules for a game. There's a printed ruleset for a football game, then there's the referees to make judgement calls on the actual game itself utilizing the ruleset, then there's the players who live with the referees judgements even if they don't agree with them. In D&D that's the PHB/MM/DMG (and in 5e most of the actual rules are in the PHB with the DMG giving the DM ways to tweak the base to fit the game they want to run), the DM is the referee and judgement maker, and the players are the players. They don't have to agree with the DM's choices but the DM is the 'giver of the rules' and does get final say. If it overly disrupts a game it'll end. If the players had the say of the rules then there's no purpose in a DM other than to dish out the players every wish, which may sound great but will kill a game (and even friendships) faster than a railroading "fascist" DM.
#52 sleypy Dec 22, 2014 5:32:02	The magic item section was wasted page count for me, but the art work makes up for it IMO. I'm looking at it from the perspective of they put some fluff text to go with the awesome artwork. Honestly, I only bought the DMG to complete the three book set. While I played 1e/2e I have not emotional connection to any magic item in particular. The mundane equipment, like grappling hook or oil flask, has been more of a source of nostalgia than any magic items.   There isn't anything much in there that I find useful beyond the monster building. I only keep the player handbook and monster manual in reach, the DMG is put away most the time. I have been using of 3e/4e feats for the mechanical inspiration, and books and tv for the fluff. The art is really the only thing inspiring about magic items in the DMG.