| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1pukunuiDec 08, 2014 10:38:32 | Mearls has formally ended Legends & Lore and announced a number of new and/or returning articles for next year:
*Unearthed Arcana will cover design philosophy and rules variants (most likely including material cut from the DMG). *Sage Advice will return with Jeremy Crawford, one of the lead designers for 5e, at the helm. *A series of "campaign notebook" articles - some of which will be written by 'DM to the Stars', Christopher Perkins - will also be published. (I wonder if CP's will feature Valoreign or something new?)
They will also be starting up the errata survey next year.
This is good to hear: "The launch of fifth edition has exceeded our wildest hopes. Thank you so much for helping make the game a runaway success." |
| #2ChakravantDec 08, 2014 14:10:34 | I thought Mike Mearls was lead designer for 5E. Monte Cook said he was. Mike Mearls said he was. |
| #3KalaniDec 08, 2014 14:38:55 | They both are, although Jeremy is the go-to guy when it comes to the rules themselves.
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| #4ChakravantDec 08, 2014 14:46:58 | So I am right, and Mearls is the lead designer for 5E as a whole ruleset. Crawford is accredited in/for specific books only. |
| #5pukunuiDec 08, 2014 15:07:06 |
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| #6ChakravantDec 08, 2014 15:16:32 |
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| #7pukunuiDec 08, 2014 15:58:09 | I'll have to do some digging. Off the top of my head, an anecotal source would be the time I asked Greg a rules question on Twitter and he referred me to Jeremy rather than Mike.
EDIT: Interestingly enough, while Jeremy Crawford's Twitter account says he is "Codesigner and Managing Editor" of D&D, Mike's just says he is the "main dude" on the R&D team. |
| #8EmerikolDec 08, 2014 17:03:47 | I think philosophically Jeremy Crawford and I do not agree and that is probably why a lot of decisions didn't go my way on 5e. The tree top strategic goals likely came down from Mike Mearls but the implementation is likely more Crawfords.
I'm basing this on comments Crawford has made at varoius panels over the year. I attended one of the sessions at Gen Con and he practically endorsed LFQW thinking with some of his comments. I should have ran right then.
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| #9TheLyonsDec 08, 2014 17:56:38 | The semantics over if Jeremey is or is/isn't a/the lead/secondary designer....etc, doesn't really get us very far.
He's heading up the Sage Advice column, this is fact. Opinion, I find this a great idea. I am also very well pleased with the articles mentioned.
I sincerely hope they regularly update these columns. I used to LOVE reading the old columns, to the point that my wife would jokingly point out I wouldn't get out of bed until I read about dragons. This was actually true on days with an article. Some of us get a lot of entertainment out of these articles and I for one hope they come back at a regular pace. |
| #10Sands666Dec 08, 2014 17:57:47 | I for one am more excited about the topic of this thread than the Mearls/Crawford yawn of a debate.
I fully expect Perkins' Valoriegn campaign to be the topic of his "campaign notebook" articles. I'm looking forward to that one. After he released the rough draft, I used it during a one shot game where my group and I wanted to play and had nothing planned in advance. It was a cool way to utilize the play test rules at the time. Ultimately I really enjoyed the evolving concepts of this campaign that rooted it in true medieval culture, returning to many ideas that birthed D&D like: knights in shining armor, priests in abbeys, and things reminiscent of Arthurian legend. It also gave me something to consider while building my own campaign and was a lot of fun for that. I can't wait to see Valoreign in its final form and the game in action. I hope we get to see a campaign wiki for that!
As for Unearthed Arcana, not only do I expect to see things that they ran out of time or room to put in the core books, but I'm guessinh this will be one of the ways tgat 5th edition will maintain a "living" element. I can see the developers using it to drop in some cool optional rules, new monsters, magic items, sub races, sub classes and hey maybe even stuff on how to build your own class. I also hope to see Mass warfare, and I hope it's a little bit better than what we saw them developing in L&L. The mass warfare from L&L was too simplistic for me. I'm not hoping for a mega complicated system, but I am hoping for one that will consider that intricacies of large scale battle to the point that it can lend to great tactical battles and allow for points in the game where the system can inspire good story. I say all this because I've seen that they have done this in the DMG and I'm impressed. So im hoping the keep the great direction they've established for the core books while they unleash all this new optional content. I don't think we as fans will be disappointed.
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| #11EmerikolDec 08, 2014 17:59:28 | I do think the articles will be interesting. I don't care about Perkins campaign notebook but I would be interested in their thoughts on game design. |
| #12ZardnaarDec 08, 2014 18:36:53 | Doesn't really say that much but oveall its a good article I thought. Makes sense having Jeremy do sage advicealthough I miss Skip Williams in that role;). |
| #13pukunuiDec 08, 2014 18:55:28 |
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| #14ZardnaarDec 08, 2014 18:59:48 | LFQW= linear fighter, quadratic wiard usually used in reference to 3E. It applied more to 3.0 IMHO than 3.5 and 3.5 was more CoDzilla. |
| #15Sands666Dec 08, 2014 19:25:23 |
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| #16pukunuiDec 08, 2014 19:35:16 |
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| (Reply to #8)bawylie |
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| #18ankiyavonDec 08, 2014 23:06:50 |
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| #19ShasarakDec 08, 2014 23:13:52 | I must say that after months of silence I was expecting a little more then....waves hands indicating whole article....this.
Or to put it another way, where is the beef? |
| #20hunterian7Dec 09, 2014 1:56:15 | I'll be looking forward to reading articles from Chris Perkins. He's my favorite person working at WotC and his campaign articles will be very insightful on how he runs a D&D campaign with 5th. |
| #21Sands666Dec 09, 2014 1:57:12 |
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| #22hunterian7Dec 09, 2014 1:57:30 |
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| #23EmerikolDec 09, 2014 5:41:15 |
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| #24dmgorgonDec 09, 2014 8:00:27 | I do recal JC being very surprised that people wanted to play a simple fighter. As for the rules, it's largely RT and JC that worked on them. Of course, design team was bias the moment Cook and Steve Winter left. |
| #25bawylieDec 09, 2014 7:00:51 | I'm saying I think he did not take the 4E position nearly enough, if at all. I thought he was pushing back to caster supremacy. |
| #26MrHotterDec 09, 2014 7:08:34 | Was there any mention of Dungeon or Dragon magazine coming back? It would be nice to have some one shot adventures to look over. |
| #27EmerikolDec 09, 2014 8:12:44 |
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| #28bawylieDec 09, 2014 8:23:57 | Exceptions-based design is?
edit: NVM, it's another meaningless waffle-term. |
| #29AaronOfBarbariaDec 09, 2014 8:15:27 | I think it is interesting to see Bawylie and Emerikol each having the sense that Jeremy Crawford was on a particular side of the edition divide, and both sensing that side being "the other side."
I haven't met the fellow in person, nor have I read much that I know him to have taken part in beyond the 5e rule books and a series of tweets responding to rules questions, but there is pretty much nothing he has said that I didn't think for myself - including that I am surprised there are so many people that want to play a simple fighter, as I had come to believe that it was pretty much just me that wanted that. |
| #30EmerikolDec 09, 2014 9:13:47 |
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| #31LawolfDec 09, 2014 9:27:05 |
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| #32bawylieDec 09, 2014 9:28:42 | And I'm sick of our community gilding our truncheons.
Richard: King Richard III (I, iii, 336-338)
Under this ridiculous tautology, each spell is an exception, each creature, each immunity. Literally any game with greater complexity than Rock Paper Scissors is "exceptions-based."
but more than that, it doesn't describe anything. Rules for your RPG must cover the possible and the impossible (whether to ban or permit in each case).
If we can't use natural language to articulate our points of view, if we have to rely on waffle speak to make a point seem intelligent and nuanced, then we have nothing of value to say. And that's aside from our community's tendency to invent official sounding theories and terms just to beat on each other with. |
| #33dmgorgonDec 09, 2014 9:30:05 |
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| #34EmerikolDec 09, 2014 9:48:58 |
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| (Reply to #33)bawylie |
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| #36bonethug0108Dec 09, 2014 10:17:30 | Exception based simply means you have a baseline and then you have things that are exceptions to that. The simplest is the idea that you get one attack a round. Then certain rules are exceptions to that baseline. Every feat is an exception in some way, as is almost every class feature. Specific spells are not exceptions, same as monsters. Some of them may have or use a rule exception, but in and of themselves they are not. |
| (Reply to #33)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #38dmgorgonDec 09, 2014 10:28:45 |
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| #39dmgorgonDec 09, 2014 10:33:08 |
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| #40bawylieDec 09, 2014 10:33:42 | Kind of. It's combined several very good features. And it's pretty streamlined. As I've said, it's not my favorite but it is maybe my 2nd or 3rd. And for that, it's not bad. Avoiding the things I dislike isn't as sexy as including what I wanted, but it's still a powerful little game engine with a lot of possibilities. |
| #41dmgorgonDec 09, 2014 11:14:50 |
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| #42Plaguescarred4Dec 09, 2014 14:22:16 | Sad to see Legends & Lore go as i liked this column, but i'm happy to see Unarthed Arcana, Sage Advice and the Campaign Notebooks columns to discuss rules or concepts and introduce new ones. Looking forward to it... |
| (Reply to #39)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #44bawylieDec 09, 2014 23:50:13 | I don't think I can answer that. |
| #45dlwraithDec 10, 2014 1:26:05 | I'm going to have to break long-term silence on this one.
I've long been annoyed at Wizards running down of the content provided via this site and particulary angry about the complete travesty that is D&D Insider. I see this announcements (the new articles) as very welcome indeed and look forward to them and will be very sad to see Legends and Lore disappear.
I still don't quite understand why, with such a huge following with many voices lamenting the loss of things like Dragon magazine and the content that filtered to this site after it's printed demise, WotC aren't making more of an effort to provide content here for players beyond advertising new products and redirecting us to facebook every five minutes (something I freaking HATE, by the way and far too many websites are using 'Crack'book as their catch-all for logins and news distibution - we don't all use it, guys!). They have a large pool of talent (and access to more in the community than pretty much any other game system), a ready made platform to distribute content, and templates for the sorts of materials a large portion of their fanbase want to see. Surely producing (ir)regular continued content is a relatively inexpensive way to further promote the 5E productline and keep things supported and evolving? Or am I missing something here?
The public playtest of 5E was brilliant (despite the distribution problems at first) so WotC must understand the value that the online space has to 5E. I suppose I just feel that it hasn't been capitalised on in the way it was promised for 4E or even hinted at for 5E. Still, I'll be patient and hopeful things will develop over the next year.
Top and bottom of it, YAAAAY! More good content (can we please have more soon?) BOOOO! Legends and lore was ace, please don't kill it permanently
Hmmm....guess I need some Chamomile or something this morning. Sorry. |
| #46dmgorgonDec 10, 2014 7:03:04 |
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| #47MistwellDec 10, 2014 7:22:40 | The people most upset about 5e, are those who most strongly liked 4e. And yet, somehow, Emerikol, a 3e fan, thinks 5e is too much like 4e. And then he totally misunderstands exceptions based design, thinking it was more something about 4e than 3e, even though 3e is when the concept was most touted as a design philosophy (it was the entire point of feats as a concept, for example). It basically comes down to what it always comes down to - whatever your biases are, that's what you see everywhere you want to look for it. |
| (Reply to #47)LupusRegalis |
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| #49ZardnaarDec 10, 2014 8:31:40 |
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| #50ChakravantDec 10, 2014 13:04:48 |
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| #51pukunuiDec 10, 2014 13:20:41 |
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| #52ankiyavonDec 10, 2014 13:56:03 |
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| #53AaronOfBarbariaDec 10, 2014 14:32:18 | That's a decent explanation, ankiyavon. I guess I could see a personal bias of strong enough sort making a person see that 5 as something other than a 5. |
| #54OrethalionDec 10, 2014 14:40:36 |
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| #55CelticPaladinDec 10, 2014 15:05:02 |
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| (Reply to #27)Azzy1974 |
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| #57MistwellDec 10, 2014 17:27:18 |
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| (Reply to #57)LupusRegalis |
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| #59EmerikolDec 10, 2014 19:38:49 |
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| (Reply to #59)Azzy1974 |
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| #61EmerikolDec 11, 2014 6:19:39 |
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| #62MistwellDec 11, 2014 6:38:57 |
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| #63MistwellDec 11, 2014 6:52:38 |
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| #64iserithDec 11, 2014 6:51:27 |
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| #65RottleDec 11, 2014 7:45:57 |
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| #66MistwellDec 11, 2014 8:12:55 |
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| (Reply to #66)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #68bawylieDec 11, 2014 8:44:23 | It's a mismatch of expectations and what's actually there.
We heard a lot of things that were slated to be in the DMG and didn't make it in. We heard about Basic, Standard, and Advanced D&D and that didn't really get spelled out. We heard about dials (present) and big rules that change the whole game (mostly not present). Alternate casting options (present, spell points, but missing AED).
There are a number of good options in there. But (strictly IMO) a lot of wasted pages on cosmology and a conspicuous absence of things we had discussed in development that I would've preferred to cosmology.
So it's frankly less of a rumor and more of an opinion/perspective. |
| #69EmerikolDec 11, 2014 8:53:49 |
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| #70ElfcrusherDec 11, 2014 8:59:13 | I think folks are conflating the usage of "Lead Designer", meaning the formal job title, and "lead designer", meaning the person who provided the most creative input. Mearls is clearly the former; we'll never have perfect clarity on the latter, and therefore it's not worth arguing. |
| #71ElfcrusherDec 11, 2014 9:04:40 |
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| #72bawylieDec 11, 2014 9:30:36 | Proficiency dice. |
| #73GnarlDec 11, 2014 10:06:37 |
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| #74Brock_LandersDec 11, 2014 10:23:27 | Yeah, it seems many were expecting the DMG to be: Chapter X: Healing Module, Chapter X: Tactical Module, Chapter X: Mass Combat module, etc, etc. |
| #75dafrcaDec 11, 2014 10:43:06 |
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| #76Brock_LandersDec 11, 2014 10:57:21 |
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| #77pukunuiDec 11, 2014 11:22:23 | Has anyone actually gone through the book and compiled a list of all the optional and variant rules in it?
Also, if I have one complaint about the 5e core rulebooks, it's the way in which they've been organized (or not, as the case may be). |
| #78Brock_LandersDec 11, 2014 11:29:55 |
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| #79bawylieDec 11, 2014 11:36:01 | They make for poor manuals (in terms of org).
I'd like to break em down and reorder them then print em up like the digest sized essentials books. |
| #80Brock_LandersDec 11, 2014 11:50:22 |
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| (Reply to #80)bawylie |
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| (Reply to #77)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #83pukunuiDec 11, 2014 12:15:33 |
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| #84ElfcrusherDec 11, 2014 13:08:42 | Yeah, we need to distinguish between optional rules that are in addition to existing rules, and optional rules that replace existing rules. Firearms are an example of the former, the two variants for longer/shorter rests are an example of the latter. |
| (Reply to #83)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #86ORC_AnimusDec 11, 2014 14:35:42 | I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting and edition warring are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct You can read how to prevent edition wars here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28870729/ Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| #87pukunuiDec 11, 2014 15:02:11 |
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| (Reply to #87)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #89pukunuiDec 11, 2014 16:12:07 | Fair enough. To be honest, I was just fishing for a list as my DMG still hasn't arrived in the mail yet ... |
| (Reply to #73)Diffan |
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| #91EmerikolDec 12, 2014 10:36:00 | Listen folks. It is a fact that 4e was touted as being a departure from prior editions because it was embracing exceptions based designed. The success of magic the gathering was thought to be inspiration for their thinking at the time.
Just think about how you guys are thinking. You have a term which if defined the way you define it means practically nothing. It applies to every game ever made. Not a useful term at all. Your big mistake is the same one you make when you think the S in GNS is about simulation as it's defined in the dictionary. It is not and never has been but you can't get past the word.
The way I've used the term it actually means something and can be used in discusions about game design. It happens to be the way the devs use it as well.
Exceptions based design was touted as an advantage when 4e was coming out. It's nothing more than a description of a design approach. Whether you like more or less of it is entirely a matter of taste. For me I felt 4e had too much and was not as systemic as I'd like. Now I will admit that the term systemic is my own and it may not be a perfect way of expressing the difference. Still I know the difference.
If you object to every word I use then the conversation dies. Terms are invented to describe something. They are more often than not definitional. Just a tool for communciating an complex idea. Otherwise you are inserting these lengthy paragraphs every time you have a conversation.
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| (Reply to #91)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #93ankiyavonDec 12, 2014 13:25:47 | A few minutes with google found me an enormous pile of posts of people talking about how 4E uses exception-based design and how the developers talked about how it was this new and great thing for D&D.
For what it's worth, I distinctly remember them talking about it myself; although I also remember thinking that this wasn't really a new thing in 4E, they were just codifying it and using it in a more front-and-center role. |
| #94pukunuiDec 12, 2014 14:09:09 |
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| #95Chiisai_UsagiDec 12, 2014 14:47:27 |
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| (Reply to #93)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #97ReiusDec 12, 2014 15:01:49 | Whatever -- I don't remember any of this, so it obviously didn't happen. Fact. |
| #98EmerikolDec 12, 2014 18:26:43 | Maybe I remember better than you. As I've said countless times having one exception doesn't make your game an exceptions based design. The devs did tout 4e as a game that used exceptions based design which was a departure from the past. I read it so what more can I say. Its your right to doubt me. I'm just passing on what I read. It does seem very obvious to me that 4e was an exceptions based design and 3e was not. |
| #99pukunuiDec 12, 2014 19:01:37 |
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| #100EmerikolDec 12, 2014 19:04:37 |
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| #101pukunuiDec 12, 2014 19:11:16 |
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| #102ShasarakDec 12, 2014 20:40:24 |
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| #103DiffanDec 12, 2014 22:16:21 | 3e is rife with exception based design. Every feat that by-passes a standard rule is an exception and one of 3e's new fangled rules was feats. Then you have class features like a Rogue's Uncanny Dodge which is an exception to half-damage on a successful save. Then there's monster abilities that by-pass rules. |
| #104ORC_RagnarDec 13, 2014 0:06:54 | I have removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Comment button below the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| (Reply to #90)Samrin |
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| (Reply to #105)EzechielDantan |
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| (Reply to #91)Azzy1974 |
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| (Reply to #98)Azzy1974 |
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| #109EmerikolDec 13, 2014 10:40:17 | No Azzy that is exactly the problem. You don't get to redefine widely accepted terms. 3e was not an exceptions based design. Having an exception does not make your game exceptions based. The devs complained that in 3e they had to use a very complicated spreadsheet when making rules to insure they did not go against the system foundation. In 4e they said they were happy not to have that burden. |
| #110CriswellDec 13, 2014 11:12:38 | Shock of shocks, I'll agree with Emrikol on this one, and say, yeah, 4e does meet the definition of an exception based system. 3e basically does too, so I'm not sure why they touted THAT as a departure, but there you go.
The big thing is that 4e moved a bit closer to D&D being an effect-based system- they balanced abilities across different types of PCs by their effect, monsters are built on their output to the party (damage, AC, HP, etc.) rather than their inherent "qualities" (3e's monster generation had you start based on creature type), etc. But it wasn't quite FULLY that since there was some protection of various sources. (The Warlord isn't as good a healer as the Cleric.) |
| (Reply to #109)Azzy1974 |
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| (Reply to #110)Azzy1974 |
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| #113SamrinDec 13, 2014 12:10:09 | It's one thing to have exceptions within the rules, and another entirely to have the system designed around exceptions. 3e and 4e are basically designed around exceptions. |
| #114pukunuiDec 13, 2014 14:11:50 | I'm getting the distinct impression that you guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You all need to go in a timeout! |
| #115EmerikolDec 14, 2014 20:33:33 |
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| #116EmerikolDec 14, 2014 20:36:40 |
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| (Reply to #116)Reius |
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| #118EmerikolDec 14, 2014 21:01:23 |
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| #119MistwellDec 14, 2014 21:22:50 |
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| #120EmerikolDec 14, 2014 21:23:24 |
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| #121bonethug0108Dec 14, 2014 21:51:08 | The "problem" with 4e was that it was systemic with it's exceptions. All of the powers were exceptions, but they all followed the same system.
So the problem is you guys are arguing what 4e was when it was a systemic exception based design. Everything was extremely based on a core system, and then the exceptions were built straight off of the core system instead of being deviant to that system.
3e and 5e are deviant exception based. You have your core rules and then the class features and feats let you deviate in very different ways from those rules. |
| (Reply to #118)Reius |
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| #123ORC_KophDec 14, 2014 21:49:46 | I have removed content from this thread because baiting/harassing is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Comment button below the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| (Reply to #122)bonethug0108 |
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| #125MistwellDec 14, 2014 22:22:28 |
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| (Reply to #124)Reius |
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| #127bonethug0108Dec 14, 2014 22:11:14 | I definitely explicitly remember them mentioning feats from 3e as exception based and that they were trying to do more things like that. Only problem is when every "exception" is deal 1d6 damage + stun or deal 1d6 damage + sleep it wasn't really much of an exception. The whole exception based system in 4e was extremely systemic. |
| (Reply to #126)bonethug0108 |
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| (Reply to #128)Reius |
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| #130bonethug0108Dec 14, 2014 23:09:05 | Yeah it's hard to call 3e exception based. It's certainly filled with exceptions but I can't really say that the game is built off of them. I guess it could be called a bit system based and a bit exception based.
You can certainly see the difference between 3e and 5e with that approach as there is a very clear base in 5e and classes were built with exceptions to the base, whereas in 3e classes are built with the base and with exceptions. |