Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bamfbmf Dec 12, 2014 9:25:24	I was surprised not to find any discussion of this on the forums yet.  I'm trying to assess the game balance issue - do people think that the racial abilities (when added together) are equivalent in power to a single first level spell?  For large size characters, I'm guess we will never be able to account for unique differences between trolls, ogres, bugbears, etc., but would it be reasonable to have a large race that simply gets the benefit of a constant Enlarge spell?  If you consider that a human gets a feat for free at 1st level, I think a feat is roughly equivalent to a 1st level spell in relative power.  What do others think?   I do agree that it's a slight problem that you can't have access to other differntiating abilities / attributes, but I think it's worth it and that flavor can come from other places.
#2 rampant Dec 12, 2014 9:28:05	I don't really see it as a viable racial feature. I's too specific as to what classes and builds benefit from it. We had somethign like the pathfinder games where you can trade out features for varient features of a race, or maybe as a feat, or a class thing, but not as a hard-lined built in racial feature.
#3 bamfbmf Dec 12, 2014 9:32:32	"too specific about which classes and builds benefit from it" ... really?  I don't see how that's not true of most of the existing racial options, human being the biggest offender since a feat is extremely powerful and you can select from any on the list.  I would say it's strictly less powerful, the only question is whether the Enlarge spell is equal to the power of a feat or not.  From looking at the spell and the feat list, I would say they are very close.
#4 bamfbmf Dec 12, 2014 9:33:59	In particular, being large is not extremely different from having the Polearm Master feat.
#5 Lawolf Dec 12, 2014 10:03:20	A feat is not worth a level one spell at will. Just imagine at-will shield for a permanent +5 AC or At-will healing for infinite healing.   In fact, there is a feat that gives you a level one spell just once per day.   Enlarge permanently is too potent of an ability. An additional d6 damage on all melee attacks is simply broken on any melee class.   Instead, I suggest creating a race with this trait:   Powerful Build You count as a large creature for all rules related to shoves, grapples, and carrying capacity.   If you really want to emphasize their stature also give this feature:   Giant's Might You may add your proficiency bonus to all Strength ability checks you make. If you already get to add your proficiency bonus to a Strength check, add double your proficiency bonus instead.
#6 bamfbmf Dec 12, 2014 10:19:26	Thanks @Lawolf, I guess I was talking about other spells, but you raise a great point and you're absolutely right about 1st level spell being too powerful for racial traits.  I like your suggestions as well, I think those two together could cover the flavor.
#7 Karnos Dec 12, 2014 10:42:49	bamfbmf wrote:
#8 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 10:53:16	Another thing about being large, is the extra amount of food. 4x as much food. that means you eat four rations as day. The cost of one Rations is 5sp. You have to spend 4 times as much, 2gp, to survive. Then the potiental extra cost of armor. I only have PHB and MM(still reading through), so idk if the bost of armor for large characters is ever covered. In the PHB, the cost of barding is 4 times that of a humanoid. Is a half-giant/golaith large enough to qualify that kind of cost? Then what about weapons? Even though you might be able to get more damage by weilding large weapons, a large creature should be able to get that d10 out of a versitale weapon in one hand. and what about greatswords/axes/hammers? If you let them weild large sized weapons, they are doing way more then that extra d6.   Being large is damn hard on the DM, expensive for the PC, and over all a pain in the butt in my opinion.
#9 ShinQuickMan Dec 12, 2014 10:59:12	Well, if you're talking about just using a race that's large sized, there's not too many problems I could think of in terms of power. Unlike in previous editions, there are few assumptions on size in general this time around. Large creatures, for instance, don't all have automatic access to a higher strength score, greater reach, or access to larger weapons simply for being large (if they could use weapons at all). The only mechanics that change with size are space, carrying loads, and grappling. Clothing and armor is likely also assumed, but not spelled out entirely. If that's the only significant trait to a hypothetically large race, I really doubt it being OP.   A race that's basically an empty slate with the Enlarge spell cast permamently on them is simply right out, as others have pointed out.
#10 bamfbmf Dec 12, 2014 11:09:14	Karnos wrote:
#11 Melwick Dec 12, 2014 11:17:19	There are several problems associated with large size. For one thing...as cowleymen said, being large means one has to eat more food and wear larger more expensive armor than the smaller and medium sized races would. Large creatures would also need a stronger metabolism and greater stamina because of their size.  There are also problems with entering smaller spaces such as buildings and dwellings built for smaller people. A giant humanoid creature would seldom be able to fit in a building built by and for humans and demihumans. Giant humanoids would find it almost impossible to fit through a medium sized door, and they could bump their heads on the ceiling at the very least. It depends on the size of the giant creature.
#12 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 11:27:45	Well being large size to me is less about height and more about over all mass. Height is apart of that. A large race should be at least 6' tall as a base, but its more about your bulk. Avarage width of adult human is what, about 2 1/2 feet? at the shoulders.  A large race should easily double that, maybe even a little more. your stance should also be much wider. to cover a 10x10 area and be able to stop easy movenment through your "squares". But yeah, in 4e goliaths are described as being  like 7 feet tall? plus or minus a few inches each way. They cant fit in anything built by a human, and a dwarf building would be neigh impossible. While it would be nice to see the option, as it stands, I think there needs to an extra size between large and medium creatures.
#13 Stormborn20 Dec 12, 2014 12:00:24	I wouldn't grant the effects of a permanent Enlarge spell.  Think about it, if you were to take a human and scale them up, they would be terribly weak and frail, struggling to even support their own weight.  Any sort of combat bonus from the Enlarge spell is surely a result of the magic and not the increase in size.
#14 Hebitsuikaza Dec 12, 2014 12:09:03	Why does large have to require any more mechanical impact than being small size?   What is even the mechanical impact of being small size? Can't use heavy weapons? Maybe being Large size means you can't use any light weapons?   Otherwise I really don't see any significant mechanical differences in the game from a character being 3' tall or 7' tall (we have both Gnomes and Dragonborn as official PC races, so this can be demonstrated), so I don't see why there should be any more inherent impact from being 12' tall. Honestly, we are talking about the same difference in scale and size there.   Bugbears aren't even all that much larger than Golliaths, Warforged or Dragonborn anyway.   With Trolls or Ogres? Well... I would assume one would aim to interpret them much akin to EverQuest or WarCraft (at least the smaller Ogres in World of WarCraft), in which case they too aren't much different in size from Bugbears (in fact, WarCraft Trolls are Hobgoblin size).   Now, if we are talking REAL D&D Trolls and Ogres.... I would be hard-pressed to think that even a functional character. I don't know that they have enough intelligence to learn from experience and mistakes and gain levels through traditional means.