Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Oniguma Aug 27, 2014 13:18:10	First of all, I'm in love with 5 ed. My group (my elf druid, a fighter, a paladin and TWO warlocks) had two sessions of play, and we are at 3rd level. Even at 1st level, each class had a very unique feeling, and was very different from another (well, maybe not the aforementioned warlocks…)   I’ve read all the classes, and think that this is true for all of them, except one: the Ranger.   A 1st level Ranger gets Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer, but his Favored Enemy feature does not makes him any better in fighting that type of monster. In fact, only in the 20th level (!) the Ranger gets something that makes him better at fighting his favored enemy: Foe Slayer, that makes him add his Wis mod in the attack or in the damage.   That should be in the Favored Enemy description! Or at least, something that makes the Ranger more usefull.   Think about it: a 1st level Ranger is worst in combat against his favored enemy than a 1st level fighter. The Ranger can track them, smell them, even talking to them. But not fight them better. No, that’s only for the Big League.   The favored enemy feature is one that the player does not control. It’s up to the DM to put them in the adventure, and the player may take one or two sessions of play before he finally encounters some of his prey. And then he can’t do anything about it! There is nothing in the class (aside from the 20th level feature) that makes it more powerful against its favored enemy.   The Ranger was one of the fewer playtested classes, and I believe that this result reflects this.   One fun thing to do would be giving the Ranger a “dice pool” that he could use to increase the damage against his Favored Enemy. At 1st level, he could have 2 d4, that he could use to boost his damage against his favored enemies. Once expended, he would have to take a short or long rest. At higher levels, he would gain more Hunting dices, and the dice wound go up to d10.   Dammit, I think I will houserule that. Better that an underrated fighter that can track gnolls. What do you guys think?
#2 tehsquirrely Aug 27, 2014 15:47:46	The hunter's features are sort of the replacemet for the old rangers flat damage bonus vs favored enemey, which wasn't nearly as exciting. Personally I really love the concept of the horde breaker ranger and would love to play one with a greatsword cleaving swathes through groupes of enemies. That said if the ranger got say a small sneak attack bonus (2d6 maybe?) vs his favored enemy I don't think that would be too crazy.
#3 Saelorn Aug 27, 2014 15:56:18	Favored Enemy just isn't that much of the Ranger's identity in 5E. They still have it, for tradition and thematic reasons, but they didn't want to make it affect combat because that would make it too unpredictable based on whether the DM includes it or not.   That they then gain a massive bonus at level 20 is kind of weird, but not that big of a deal, given how little play happens at that level. (And, by the time you do get there, you should have three favored enemies and plenty of fore-knowledge about what sorts of enemies you will be facing for the last few encounters.)
#4 GladiusLegis Aug 27, 2014 16:02:20	I'd hardly call the Ranger capstone a "massive bonus."
#5 tallric_kruush Aug 27, 2014 16:03:48	Yeah, I like the concept of the 5E Ranger, but it doesn't feel finished, to me. It isn't nearly as mechanically interesting as the other classes, in my opinion.   We have a Rogue in our party that easily could've been a Ranger, based on flavor and intent. The Rogue's mechanics, though, allow you to build a more effective and versatile Ranger than the Ranger class does, in our opinions.   I don't think either Ranger path feels particularly complete. They feel weak enough, in fact, that I bet they could be merged, with minor tweaks, into a single build without breaking the game. I basing this off of no experience and early opinions, though, so it could be better than I believe it to be.
#6 Einlanzer Aug 27, 2014 19:40:41	It's hard to not feel like they're on the weak side just from reading through the classes.  Their features seem too.. controlled.. relative to other classes.  I.e. "You can do this, but only here" or "you can do this, but not this" type stuff, with little net gain on a lot of them.  Whirlwind attack is a great example - it sounds good on paper, but how consistently are you going to be surrounded by more than 3 enemies, which is about the only time it's worth using over a regular attack, especially if you took Horde Breaker?   Even their ultimate "Foe Slayer" is not really that great despite how situational it is - it should give you +wis mod attack bonus and + dex score damage at the same time or something. They do have a few useful spells, moreso than in previous editions, but they all in all just seem like a weaker re-flavored paladin.   Maybe they play better than they appear to on paper, but I'm a little skeptical.
(Reply to #6) seti	Einlanzer wrote:
#8 THEMNGMNT Aug 27, 2014 21:28:55	The ranger as published definitely feels like a first draft. Overall, the classes and ideas that were publically playtested feel very strong, while those that got less of a test drive are uneven in quality. The core mechanics are great, and most of the classes are compelling, but the subclasses are inconsistent. This is my opinion from a read through; I haven't played the game yet.
#9 sugar_high Aug 27, 2014 22:56:47	They aren't really all that weak in combat, though they typically are worse skill monkeys than bards and rogues.  Up until around 10th level they can put out some of the best sustained damage that you're likely to see (though, the polearm fighter or barbarian might outperform them) and they still remain competitive up until around level 16 or so.  What sucks is that their class features are so situational and they have next to no nova capability.  These things combined with a general lack of scaling into upper levels limit the ranger quite a bit.   On one of the other ranger discussions, Dracones suggested allowing a ranger to learn new favored terrains and favored enemies in the same manner that any character can learn new tool proficiencies and languages using downtime, and I'd say that solution is the best stop-gap that I've seen for it so far (you'd need to more or less redesign the class, or at least the subclasses, from the ground up to really fix the problem as a whole, in my opinion).   I might also suggest that one allow Foe Slayer to function on every attack made against a favored enemy rather than only once per round.  That way it at least has a chance to compete with some of the other capstone abilities.
#10 1eejit Aug 28, 2014 1:42:36	A large part of the ranger's strength comes from the class specific spells, which are easy to overlook. Surely being less dependant on running into a favoured enemy to do your top damage is a good thing?
#11 Eerongal Aug 28, 2014 7:13:55	1eejit wrote:
#12 mellored Aug 28, 2014 7:23:32	1eejit wrote:
(Reply to #11) Garydee	Eerongal wrote:
#14 Forgember Aug 28, 2014 13:04:13	Sheesh I just re-read Foe Slayer and wow it just seems awful for a cap stone, I thought it was +Wis mod to attack and damage vs Favored Enemy but instead its once per turn add +Wis mod to Attack or Damage. I'm playing a Ranger reguardless but for those that think them underpowered I kinda think you could just give them Foe Slayer at level 1, maybe add that for Beast Masters the once per turn buff may be used by the Ranger or his Beast. At level 20 make it work how I thought it did, +Wis mod to attack and damage vs Favored Enemy always active for Ranger and Beast.
#15 h347h50 Aug 28, 2014 13:04:18	1eejit wrote:
#16 Orzel Aug 28, 2014 13:07:43	The spells art good. Not very good but good. Hunter's Mark and Swift Quiver are good. But they also have little competition for their slots. Cordon of Arrows doesn't kill anything with its pitiful damage. Lightning arrow, Hail of Thorns and Conjure Barrage are weak AOE. Not bad but weak at the level you get them. Conjure Volley is decent AOE but ain't great . But the truth is ranger combat spells are not bad. They are just something to burn slots on. HM/SQ and burn slots on minor AOE at whim. Ranger Exploration spells. Now THOSE ARE GREAT.
#17 mellored Aug 28, 2014 15:15:38	Orzel wrote:
(Reply to #10) Oniguma	1eejit wrote:
#19 Orzel Aug 28, 2014 16:28:58	mellored wrote:
#20 Oniguma Aug 28, 2014 16:59:17	My point is that the ranger have nothing special about it BESIDES spellcasting. The core Ranger (as I will call the class without the archetype) is only a spellcaster that can track. Hell, it gets less ability score improvements than the Rogue, for exemple, as his spells were as good as the Sorcerer's. A Paladin can heal, and can uses his spells solts as fuel to Smite. Rogues have sneak attack. Monks have ki. Barbarians have Rage. Fighters gets lots of extra attacks. All this are core class mechanics, without the archetype. What does the Ranger gets? An extra language, advantage on track, don't get lost sometimes. At higher levels, they gain: 6th - Awareness (OMG there is a type of creature in a Mile. I don't know what it is, or even how much they are. Let's look/avoid them. Oh, and I have to burn a spell slot for that) 8th - Land stride (OMG I now can walk over difficult terrain, and advantage against plant-type pokem... I mean, spells) 10th - Hide in plain sight (It's sound good, but it takes a minute, and you must stay motionless) 14th - Vanish (first cool ability, and that is useful in combat, provided that the ranger can take cover). 18th - Feral senses (second cool ability, you don't have disadvantage against invisible creatures, and senses then at 30 feet) 20th - Foe slayer (HEY, remember that Favored Enemies that you chose? NOW you can add your Wis mod to attack OR damage, once per turn). So, the Ranger don't get anything combat-usefull until much later in the game, and only at top-level he is more effective against his favored enemies. If he could burn spell slots to cause extra damage against them (like an Smite FE, as I've said somewhere before), it would be something unique to the class. But as it is, it just seems underpowered and generic, specialy at lower levels. My point is that the ranger have nothing special about it BESIDES spellcasting. The core Ranger (as I will call the class without the archetype) is only a spellcaster that can track. Hell, it gets less ability score improvements than the Rogue, for exemple, as his spells were as good as the Sorcerer's. A Paladin can heal, and can uses his spells solts as fuel to Smite. Rogues have sneak attack. Monks have ki. Barbarians have Rage. Fighters gets lots of extra attacks. All this are core class mechanics, without the archetype. What does the Ranger gets? An extra language, advantage on track, don't get lost sometimes. At higher levels, they gain: 6th - Awareness (OMG there is a type of creature in a Mile. I don't know what it is, or even how much they are. Let's look/avoid them. Oh, and I have to burn a spell slot for that) 8th - Land stride (OMG I now can walk over difficult terrain, and advantage against plant-type pokem... I mean, spells) 10th - Hide in plain sight (It's sound good, but it takes a minute, and you must stay motionless) 14th - Vanish (first cool ability, and that is useful in combat, provided that the ranger can take cover). 18th - Feral senses (second cool ability, you don't have disadvantage against invisible creatures, and senses then at 30 feet) 20th - Foe slayer (HEY, remember that Favored Enemies that you chose? NOW you can add your Wis mod to attack OR damage, once per turn). So, the Ranger don't get anything combat-usefull until much later in the game, and only at top-level he is more effective against his favored enemies. If he could burn spell slots to cause extra damage against them (like an Smite FE, as I've said somewhere before), it would be something unique to the class. But as it is, it just seems underpowered and generic, specialy at lower levels.
#21 mellored Aug 28, 2014 17:34:15	Orzel wrote:
(Reply to #21) Orzel	mellored wrote:
#23 The_Jester Aug 28, 2014 18:13:42	Favoured enemy combat bonuses are tricky.    If the bonuses aren't factors into your base combat effectiveness you're super good when fighting your chosen enemy. Too good. So the DM is not incentivized to use those foes.  If the bonuses are factors in, then you're less effective when not fighting your enemy.
#24 Elenduin Aug 28, 2014 22:10:37	I just noticed that Rangers only get 11 known spells at level 20, that seems to limit a lot of versatility.  Hopefully I'm misreading it.
#25 UnknownMourner Aug 29, 2014 21:43:11	I'd gladly take double proficiency on a couple skills like Survival, Nature, or Perception in place of favored enemy and favored terrain.
#26 Psikerlord Aug 29, 2014 22:47:47	Orzel wrote:
#27 Dane_McArdy Aug 30, 2014 7:23:14	Saelorn wrote:
(Reply to #18) Lord_Phobetor	Oniguma wrote:
#29 Psikerlord Aug 30, 2014 16:07:13	Lord_Phobetor wrote:
#30 darkrequiem Aug 30, 2014 17:55:41	I can understand some of the views of the OP but we will need time so see how much fun the ranger is too play.   Having read all the classes in the PHB, I like them all. And I love the flavoursome subclasses for all the martial classes (they have even made the fighter interesting), including those of the Ranger. Personally I am glad they shifted damage bonus away from being a feature against favoured enemies, because as others pointed out if those enemies don't appear it hurts the ranger's comabt capability too much, which has happened in our games. I agree with the others that I don't like the ranger as a spellcaster, and the magic focus should have been a subclass, but since the class does have a magic aspect I am happy with the limited number of spells they know (only 11 maximum). The Paladin has far more spells they know, which makes it harder to downplay their magic if you want that to be a less significant focus - another class where more magic spells known (not the number they cast) should have been a subclass choice. Having said all that I do like the ranger spell list a lot.   I know there is some flak about the Beastmaster subclass combat effectiveness, which its too early for me to comment on, but the Hunter subclass looks very combat effective (Horde Breakder can have 3 attacks at 5th level or Colossus Slayer weapon damage +d8 - both are great options) and I like that you get a range of choices at different levels to reflect your type of ranger (Multiattack is potentially very nasty since it doesn't cost ki points/superiority dice/limit of once before a rest etc!!). From a story perspective you can link these choicesis to your favoured enemy type and your fighting style.   The 20th level ability is the one feature that does look very weak compared against other classes. Fortunately it won't come up in any games I play as we never go past around 11th level.   Natural Exploer looks good to me, more useful overall than favoured enemy. By 10th level you'll have 3 favoured terrains, in most games that should pretty much cover all the environements you are likely to visit. It suits the way I envision the ranger, but obviously helps to have a DM who takes your abilities into account and tailors some situations to let you play up on them. I've probably been spoiled by having a core DM over the years who is really good. So tracking foes to their lair is useful, spying on the enemies before attacking is useful. Sneaking up to the lair is useful.   So overall I don't have a problem with the ranger class as presented. Maybe some things I would have done a little differently (less magic and add 2 handed weapon fighting style), but I am still very exicted to play both types of ranger subclasses when I have the chance. Lots of flavour there that has multiple character concepts springing too mind.
#31 Veleria Aug 31, 2014 1:29:34	Those wanting a non spell casting ranger that is pyre damage like 4e ther is the fighter class. Literally no difference. For those wanting a more flavored class the ranger has a lot to offer.
#32 Marandahir Aug 31, 2014 6:19:53	Oniguma, Primeval Awareness is level 3, not 6, so you get it pretty much from the get-go.  And it's REALLY good.  Sense Aberrations, Celestials, Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, and Undead, within a mile?  Within 6 miles on your favoured terrain (which you get more of as you level up)?  For 1 minute per spell level expended?  It's a really potent exploration feature.  You don't know WHERE it is within the local area, but feeling the a disturbance in the Force of Nature is great and can really help with setting a course if you know what the 1/6 mile radius around you is like.  It doesn't translate to raw combat abilities, because the Ranger is the Exploration pillar class.  It does Exploration stuff better than everyone else.  And it's good at killing things too. For the first time, I feel like the Ranger really emulates Aragorn as he's tracking the Uruk-hai (who would be either Fiends or Fey, due to the different nature of Orcs in that setting).  From the spells that don't feel TOO magical (so the Ranger doesn't feel gishy, it feels more like a warrior-tracker enhancing his or her abilities with the spirits of nature), to the exploration abilities to the animal companion or hunter power options (an obvious nod to 4e players who got choices at various levels), this Ranger feels AWESOME and plays AWESOME.
#33 DrFistington Mar 05, 2015 14:08:32	Honestly, Overall I'm loving my ranger so far in 5e.  I started off with a rogue, and he ended up dying in a campaign, so I created an alt ranger until my rogue could get a rez.  Truth be told, I'm going to stick with my ranger over the rogue, he's only 4th level, but he's still a beast.  The ranger really shines with large groups of MOB's, but is also good with one on one damage.  I've gone the Archery/Hunter route, so my longbow attacks get +7 to hit, making misses rare.  Combine that with AOE spells like hail of thorns, and Hordebreaker, and you've got a powerful combination.  Last night we had 7 enemies coming at us, 4 frogmen in a group, and 3 lizardmen.  I had top initiative, popped hail of thorns, railed one of the frogmen, rolled a 10 on my hail of thorns, all but one of the frogmen failed thier saving throws, so that was 3 dead from that one shot, but then I used hordebreaker to attack the one that was left standing, and took him out as well.  My group is about 5th level now on average, and I'm the only one that could take out 4 guys in one combat turn.  Combine that with powerful ranged attacks, and the ability to ensaring strike and the ranger is a powerful ranged DPS class.  I find myself doing far more damage with my ranger than my rogue.   My only complaint about the ranger (well more a complaint about the nature skill in 5e) is that the Nature ability uses intelligence, while ranger builds/spells tend to rely more in wisdom, so I somehow have a ranger, someone who's a master of the outdoors and lived in them his entire life, who has +0 to nature because I raised his wisdom rather than intelligence.  It seems like Nature should be wisdom based.  I mean when I think about a book-smart, intelligent person, I don't immediatly assume that thier booksmarts help them survive in the wild.  On the other hand, when you think about a wise old farmer, or a hermit, or a druid, it would make sense that thier wisdom has taught them a great deal about nature, even if they can't read and do math (which I think of as more intelligence based skills)
#34 mrpopstar Mar 05, 2015 14:49:38	DrFistington wrote:
#35 abs1nth Mar 05, 2015 15:33:22	Marandahir wrote:
#36 Coredump00 Mar 05, 2015 19:34:10	My problem with Rangers is they keep Necro-ing threads that are 6 months old....
#37 The_Jester Mar 06, 2015 10:30:13	Oniguma wrote:
#38 Noon Mar 06, 2015 20:44:56	Don't you get to know the language of your favoured enemy (if any)?