Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MechaPilot Jul 26, 2015 18:33:17	The discussion in the monstrous race PHB thread got me thinking about monstrous PC races, and it has inspired me to get back to work on my medusa PC race.  It's still a work in progress, and any constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated,      Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma scores increase by 1. Size. Medium. Speed. 30 feet. Darkvision. You can see in darkness within 60 feet of you as if it were dim light. When you do so, your vision is in black and white. Petrifying Gaze. When a creature that can see the medusa’s eyes starts its turn within 30 feet of the medusa, the medusa can spend a reaction to force it to make a Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature. The DC of the saving throw is 8 + her proficiency modifier + her Charisma modifier. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is instantly petrified. Otherwise, a creature that fails the save begins to turn to stone and is restrained. The restrained creature must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn, becoming petrified on a failure or ending the effect on a success. The petrification lasts until the creature is freed by the greater restoration spell or other magic. Unless surprised, a creature can avert its eyes to avoid the saving throw at the start of its turn. If the creature does so, it can’t see the medusa until the start of its next turn, when it can avert its eyes again. If the creature looks at the medusa in the meantime, the medusa may spend a reaction to force it to immediately make the save. Snake Hair. As an action, you may attack with your snake hair as if it were an unarmed strike. You are considered to be proficient when making this attack. The snake bites deal a total of 1D4 + Dex modifier piercing damage and inject poison into the victim. The target must make a Constitution save with a DC of 8 + proficiency bonus + Constituion modifier or else take 1d6 poison damage. The poison damage increases by 2d6 when you reach 5th level (3d6), 11th level (5d6), and 17th level (7d6). Languages. Common and one other language.           Okay, now let me give some reasoning behind the design.   Subrace.  I omitted a subrace.  My reason for this is pretty obvious.  I am trying to make this a fairly balanced racial option, and there is no real benefit that a subrace could provide that wouldn't make the race more imbalanced.   Snake Hair.  I reduced the damage and made it require an action to use so that it is roughly equivalent to a 2d6 damage cantip.  I have explained before in my racial write-ups that I consider cantrips a non-ability because they are roughly equivalent to the one-round damage output of weapon users (and they are naturally more equal to the one-round output of a caster using a cantrip).   Petrifying Gaze.  This is the biggie.  I have no doubt this will be the source of most of the balance issues with this race.  I kept it fairly close to the ability seen in medusa monster entry in the MM.  I did change it so the medusa character must spend a reaction to use the ability on a single target.  This reduces the ability so that it cannot affect multiple targets.  Naturally, an opponent can still avert their eyes to avoid having to make the save.   I am somewhat concerned by the save DC for the petrifying gaze.  After looking at the Con saves for goblins, hobgoblins, and gnolls, I noticed that there are a lot of +0s and +1s.  Even if the medusa has a +0 Cha modifier, it will have a DC of 10 for the save.  That means a result of five or less is instant petrification, and that means a 20-25% of instant stonage for goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, and presumably many other low-level threats.   I am looking at potential changes.  I have a few improvements that I am considering sequestering into racial feats, and one of them is the sequestering of the proficiency bonus to the petrification DC until the medusa is of a high enough level to be facing foes with higher Con modifiers.   I have also considered giving enemies advantage on the save, or simply reducing the base of the DC from 8 to 5, or 3.
#2 rampant Jul 26, 2015 19:44:42	Snake Hair: Two things: 1.) could it be made to be a reaction compatible attack? Because that seems like a good way to show off the idea that the snakes are partially automatic, which is the impression most snake haired beings give in various media, especially tv. 2.) Why do you need to hit with an attack and force a save that makes it pretty iffy?       The stone gaze, I'd reduce the requirements to for healing the effect lesser restoration or anything that removes the current condition. Also I'd advise that you use a track system. Slow->Grappled->Incapacitated->Restrained->paralyzed->Petrified. The Medusa from the book is very power and very old according to the descriptions, less powerful verions would probably need to work their way up to that level, and you can use racial feats to help with that. Even then I'm not sure it's suitable for an at-will power. Maybe install some sort of limit on the number or times it can be used or an HP cap on who can be affected by it?
#3 MechaPilot Jul 26, 2015 20:08:55	rampant wrote:
#4 rampant Jul 26, 2015 20:43:34	Have the gaze do low cantrip damage and slow, then if they fail a save it kicks up a notch, and if they're restrained by the gaze and their HP is below the threshold then they save vs. petrify. 5 hp per level sounds like as good a place to start as any,   The hair is a problem you could make it limited use (snakes need time to refill their poison sacs) and up the power, and then add the reaction option. You could kepe the damage the same and make it reaction only. You could make it a bonus action attack, but I'd have to suggest you alter the damage scaling in that case because normal action + cantrip as a bonus might be too much.    You might also want to set the gaze to run on the highest of the medusa's mental scores.
#5 MechaPilot Jul 26, 2015 22:05:27	rampant wrote:
#6 rampant Jul 26, 2015 22:09:01	Try d4s. since this is going to happen almost every round we don't want it to be dealing more damage than an opportunity attack.
#7 MechaPilot Jul 26, 2015 22:17:43	rampant wrote:
#8 LuisCarlos17f Jul 26, 2015 23:35:36	My own idea is a nerfed version of medusa, without total petrifying gaze but a magic ray from eyes with cold + poison damage. Only petrification after target below 0 hit points.    The snakes in the head would be a natural weapon, with poison + cold  damage but with short range attack... maybe with some monster feat she could spit poison, or longer snakes, like tentacles..  another option could be snake from head be used like animal companion, or grafts...    For me the origin of medusas is they were created to be guardians of (hidden secret) sacred temples, maybe some women were cursed by a punishment, or a divine blessing to take revenge againts men who raped her and profaned the sacred temple where they worked.    In the ancient times, the gorgoneion was a amulet
#9 Hebitsuikaza Jul 27, 2015 9:57:43	About these two abilitie...   With the snake hair, generally I don't think it is a good idea to grant additional attacks, additional unarmed strikes. It makes sense for "boss" monsters that are generally meant to be fighting multiple PCs at once, but giving extra attacks to PCs is generally something you should avoid.   Too often I see people equate an unarmed attack to being a single fist punching. And you seem to have done the same thing here. Unarmed attacks are the characters ability to damage their opponents using their entire bodies and any unarmed martial arts techniques they have. Punches with either hand, kicking, stomping, tail lashing, etc. Everything except for grappling. Given that the damage a general PC is physically capable of doing with their entire physical form is only 1 damage plus strength, the 1d4 damage for having snake hair is entirely unreasonable. Yes, snake bites are not fun and hurt... but having your head slammed between a wall and someone's size 12 boot is going to kill someone so much faster. And it certainly is not going to do the kind of damage having your throat slashed with a 6-8" dagger of having it plunged over and over again into your belly or chest over a 6-second period is going to do.   Usually when people go with "this creature has claws!" I would say that you should just increase the unarmed attack to 1d2 damage instead of just 1 damage or a flat 2 damage.   BUT, in the case of biting, or in this case hair attacks, there is another serious issue-- in a proper sword/mace/spear battle, your head should never be close enough to the opponent to be able to utilize that attack. If your head is 8" away from the opponent and their arms are free, they should be able to coup de grace you right there on the spot. But there is one case when you should be that close and their arms wouldn't be free-- grappling. When you grab ahold of someone and pin them down (or they do that to you), you can use your hair to attack them.   But the snakes also wouldn't benefit from your attributes. So it would just be "while grappling an opponent you may deal an attack for 1 piercing damage to them per round and can inflict the poisoned condition." And, yeah... that is sort of lame for a racial ability. Maybe that could be upped to being "damage equal to your profiency bonus" Its not fantastic, in fact it is only decent at level 1 and becomes rather useless beyond that, it almost certainly does not match what the monster version gets to do... but it is something. Consider it more a flavor ability.   The stone gaze is way too powerful. Its an ability that you get as a reaction that is guaranteed to have some effect on the target regardless of how powerful it is, can be used every single round and easily has the effect of a mid to high level spell and can pretty much out-and-out kill the most powerful opponent in the game, but you get it immediately at level 1.   The first fix is that you don't get the ability at level 1. Delay gaining the ability.   We want to find a spell that any character can get that is generally equivalent to this. The equivalent spell if Flesh to Stone. It is a 6th level Abjuration spell. (In fact, what you wrote is considerably more powerful and might well be worthy of being a 9th level spell that you wanted to give a 1st level PC the ability to do at will as a reaction). A wizard would get that spell at level 11, so the Medusa characters also gets the ability to use this at level 11. The DC is 11+your charisma modifier+your proficiency bonus. You need to use an action to use the spell and it recharge once per a long rest and follows the same rules for the Flesh to Stone spell as written except you get to ignore the Verbal, Semantic and Material components.   Given that the Medusa in the Monster Manual has 17 hit die, it is not unreasonable to posit that it might well be at least level 11. Until that level, your presence is too weak for your stone gaze to work.   Beyond this... well, you are going to want to give them a handful of minor advantages...   For instance, if you went back to the "lower body of a snake" thing rather than what is depicted in the 5th edition Monster Manual, we could support that first ability by making it so that you grapple as though you are a large sized character, and you get advantage on swim and climb checks, but you can't jump. They might also be trained in Diplomacy so long as they can disguise themselves and hide their monsterous features.   Anyway, it is way more important that the thing be balanced rather than remotely match what is written in the monster manual. Focus on creating something reasonable and just touches on the important points. In fact, it might be best to not even look at the monster manual because it will only serve to misguide you.
#10 MechaPilot Jul 27, 2015 12:38:48	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#11 Hebitsuikaza Jul 27, 2015 15:15:06	Tell you what. About the snake hair thing....   If I ignore the whole physical mechanics of someone being close enough to hit you with their hair... and make note that this sort of medusa doesn't have the snake body so building a cool little "wrap around the target and attack them with her hair" concept isn't going to work out...   If I just think of it just as a cantrip.   Well, the Warlock has Poison Spray. You are hitting 1 square instead of 2, so potentially 1 less target. And it does 1d12. So dealing 2d6+1d4 seems fair for what amounts to a melee cantrip, particularly since you are going to miss out on potentially a second target. And it gets the benefits of no verbal, semantic or material components. HOWEVER, the target does get a con save to cut that 2d6 damage in half.   But it is important to note that this would be your action-- same as if you cast a spell. It isn't a free additional attack you get every single turn along with your regular attacks. At least until Level 5. Given that the damage spray ability doubles in damage at level 5, so it'd be fair enough for you to be able to use it as a bonus action at level 5.   It will still be super strong, but you aren't getting much else and a lot of time there are going to be other, better things you will want to do with that bonus action and you only get one per turn.   This would also help so that by level 11 you are going to be much closer to the Monster Manual version. Less hit points, but a lot more cool class abilities.
#12 MechaPilot Jul 27, 2015 18:46:02	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#13 MechaPilot Jul 27, 2015 19:17:54	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#14 Mistwell Jul 27, 2015 20:59:47	I don't think petrifyng gaze should ever cause damage - that's just not in the theme of the medusa. The progression of Slow->Incapacitated->Restrained->Paralyzed->Petrified seems more in line with a younger medusa.
#15 arnwolf666 Jul 28, 2015 2:53:37	If I am every going to use a Medusa, it is going to be dex save to avoid seeing her or turned to stone immediately.  Why bring a badass critter into an adventure if you are not going to use it as intended.  Otherwise just create a new weaker monster with the abilities you want.  Oh well, I'm being negative, I don't understand this generation of roleplayers, I'll run back to my 2E/5E hybrid.  Interesting design though, have fun with it.
#16 MechaPilot Jul 28, 2015 12:26:45	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #16) arnwolf666	MechaPilot wrote:
#18 MechaPilot Jul 28, 2015 13:07:54	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #18) arnwolf666	MechaPilot wrote:
#20 ShinQuickMan Jul 28, 2015 14:43:27	MechaPilot wrote:
#21 MechaPilot Jul 28, 2015 14:58:27	ShinQuickMan wrote:
#22 Dwarfslayer Jul 31, 2015 7:41:29	I would probably make the stone gaze a standard action to use. Having an infinite use reaction that can take people out of combat is crazy powerful. Medusa as a whole really weren't meant to be a PC race, mainly because it's expected you're going to counter them by closing your eyes, using mirrors, or doing some kind of other adventurer tricks. Most monsters probably aren't going to be that smart. Also in 5E specifically, monster AC is much lower than PC AC. So closing your eyes and taking disadvantage is a lot easier for a PC than it is for a monster. Also keep in mind the PC medusa is going to have class levels so it's going to be way more formidable than the monstrous variety.   Even as a standard action instead of reaction, the gaze is extremely powerful and probably better than any of the abilities a PC race gets. I'd probably remove the stat bonuses too honestly. It's way better than a normal PC race and would probably need the equivalent of required racial HD levels or 3E style Level Adjustment.
#23 MechaPilot Jul 31, 2015 13:18:50	Dwarfslayer wrote:
#24 Hebitsuikaza Jul 31, 2015 13:36:13	I think I have another idea for you that might work. It'll be a bit... simple and counterintuitive, but...   First, it needs to use an action. No question there.   Range is 60' Target must make a reflex save or take 1d8 force(?) damage and its movement will be reduced to 10 feet until the start of your next turn. This damage increases at 5th (2d8), 11th (3d8) and 17th (4d8) level. If the target reaches 0 hit points as a result of this ability, it is turned to stone.   That will make it effectively a cantrip and you can use it every turn without it being more powerful than your proper class options.   And you will still have room to give the race some proficiencies or other noncombat abilities or possibly a 1st level spell once per long rest gained at 3rd level and a 2nd level spell gained at 5th level once per long rest.