Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 spelley Sep 19, 2014 11:29:46	Was looking at another thread (the Common Sense thread) and the discussion of modifying crossbows came up. I figure the best way to handle this would be to make it a downtime activity, with a monthly time scale. Here is the rough outline of what I came to and how it could be used as a template for other inventions:   Downtime rules for altering the weapon to have (limited) automatic reloading for dual-wielding purposes, probably a decent cost (for the parts for experimenting) that would be fairly expensive. I'm thinking something like:   Customize Handcrossbow: Cost: 200g/month for parts and tweaks INT Checks Required: 3   New Invention/No Blueprints: At the end of each month you spend working on your invention, make 3 DC15 Woodcrafting Tool checks. For each successful check beyond the first, reduce the cost this month by 10%. You must succeed at least once to make Intelligence checks to determine successful invention.   Roll 3 DC15 Intelligence checks. If you succeed at 3 of the checks, you succeed at altering the crossbow. You also create a blueprint that can be used for making future inventions. These checks are cumulative between months.   With Blueprints: Make your Tool checks as normal, but no INT checks are required   ------------------------------------------------------------   Things You Can Change: The main "dials" you can change are:    - Cost: this could be higher or lower, depending on wealth guidelines/your world's economy - INT Checks Required: determines how "smart" you need to be to figure it out. Can be set as X/Y. Can be cumulative or not.  - Blueprints: Blueprints remove requirements (usually the X/Y INT Checks) and the blueprints themselves could be sold, assuming there is a market.  - Tool: these could be made into something else depending on what is being invented.   Any ideas/opinions are most welcome!   NOTE: My prices and number of checks might be wonky, I am doing this while on a break at work and not looking at books etc. to make sure my prices / effort are reasonable.
#2 Captain_Kobold Sep 19, 2014 16:39:13	Use of the correct tools would be more appropriate than sleight of hand. You aren't trying to conceal or misdirect.   What would be the actual result? You're after a mechanism that will reset the trigger release, be able to draw back the string, and feed a bolt into the firing groove? Without requiring a hand to operate.   Would there be an actual game effect, or is it just making it easier to accept that its possible to dual-wield hand crossbows?
#3 ClockworkNecktie Sep 19, 2014 17:22:37	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#4 Sailing_Pirate_Ryan Sep 21, 2014 11:51:09	In past editions, I've made a "gnome crossbow" that uses clockwork and pneumatics to replace the "bow" part of the crossbow. This essentially turns it into a speargun, but does little for it mechanically other than making it easier to conceal (as in, able to conceal it at all). The fact that rock gnomes actually have a Tinker ability now just fits it perfectly, though it means a greater mechanical benefit would be in order. Not sure what, yet.
#5 rampant Sep 21, 2014 12:05:54	YOu need a non-magical weapon modification system, not a single weapon with screwy rules regarding reload mods.   Take a few pages from the tephra rpg, each weapon can be modified by a craftsman who knows the appropriate skill and mod, Each weapon can have up to three mods, unless you have a master craftsman who can push it to 5, although weapons constructed of poorer quality materials have less mod slots.    So there should be a feat that lets you mod melee weapons, another for armor, one for ranged weapons, I dunno if splitting bows and and cross-bows is needed. Shields and ammo might be tricky.   But the feat allows you to add x mods to your chosen wepaon set, and gives you a few mods to choose from.    Then there can be a mastery feat to give you a few more options and push the number of mods up.
#6 ctrl_alt_belief Sep 21, 2014 13:01:27	I've had players asking about compound bows, and I posited that it would be a pretty rare Gnomish treasure (a shortbow that has the mechanics of a longbow without being classified as heavy, invented by Gnomes for defense against larger creatures' forces). This seems about in line with that concept. But what I'd really like to see is a unified downtime system for player characters to be able to invent anything, from weapons to spells to poisons to potions, with varying check types (tools used, resources consumed, etc) folded in. The DMG might include something for player invention, but you can bet it won't be allowed in Adventurer's League.
#7 MrCustomer Sep 21, 2014 13:08:38	Compound crossbow would be redundant, the compound mechanic is simple to allow a person to be able to pull the bow back, there is a lomit on how many pounds tension a human could pull a bow back otherwise, crossbows being purely mechanical can pul back significantly more force, so a compound mechanic would be redundant.
#8 rampant Sep 21, 2014 13:09:29	The problem with inventing anything is that they might invent anything. If you thought spell casters could get out of hand wait until the PCS start riggin up electric lights and gunpowder grenades.
(Reply to #7) ctrl_alt_belief	MrCustomer wrote:
#10 Captain_Kobold Sep 22, 2014 11:36:09	ctrl_alt_belief wrote:
#11 ctrl_alt_belief Sep 22, 2014 18:26:47	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#12 rampant Sep 22, 2014 18:56:31	I wanna look at the monsters and the magic items before I start coming up with a mundane crafting system for 5e, but I think I could pull it off using the feat system, and stealing concepts form the tephra RPG.   The question is gonna be what kinds of things are acceptable as mundane mods, I don't wanna go making a bunch of mods to make it more accurate or damaging because then those start messing with the math.
(Reply to #12) ctrl_alt_belief	rampant wrote:
#14 rampant Sep 23, 2014 0:24:47	Weapon and armor mods are one thing, those tend to be semi-persistent at least.   Consumables are a bit different they generally have built in use limits that make it harder to pin down just how good they should be.   Furthermore I'm not sure What I'm envisioning counts as an invention system since instead it'd be a way to customize stuff that's already there for the most part.
#15 Captain_Kobold Sep 23, 2014 15:44:41	ctrl_alt_belief wrote:
#16 BW0222 Sep 23, 2014 16:55:57	There is no historical 'repeating crossbow' which magically reloaded an existing crossbow. The Chinese versions of the device consisted of a lever which was pulled for each shot and only provided a limited amount of force. It was never widely used because it couldn't penetrate armor. There was no historical mechanism to hold enough energy/force to recoil a period-based crossbow until the invention of forged steel springs in the 17th-century. Even then, they were heavy could only hold three bolts and took forever to crank the springs back into position. They also had the unfortunate tendancy of snapping the wood and metal firing mechanism -- and of course firearms were in wide use by then.   If you want to come up with a variation of the Chinese Zhuge crossbow... sure. Two handed, heavy, 15 lbs, range (60/150), only a d6 or so for damage, holds ten rounds. Reloading is an action.   However, I'd no more allow anyone in most D&D settings to make a repeating crossbow... than I would allow them to make a revolver or a compound bow. There is no reason to think any person in the D&D university would even have a clue of how to construct such things. They would have to look at finding magical ways of getting it to reload automatically -- which while a good plot for an adventure path, isn't something which could be crafted using mundane means.    D&D is a game (generally) based on 12th-century (or so) technology. Even then, firearms are typically not permitted.
#17 rampant Sep 23, 2014 20:38:51	Um what? I mean they have the materials, so why couldn't someone come up with the idea? I mean there was a repeater in 3e. Furthermore historical accuracy with weapons is prett durned close to zilch in this game.   Also If I make them spend a feat to craft weapons they are sure as heck gonna be better than the PHB version, I'm just not looking to make huge alterations to accuracy or damage, things like installing quick dosers for alchemical concoctions and poisons, springloaded weapons for surprise draws, adding barbs, chains, or ropes to add little tricks and nasty surprises, I'm not looking for +3 damage every hit.
#18 ChrisCarlson Sep 23, 2014 21:11:23	ctrl_alt_belief wrote:
#19 seti Sep 23, 2014 21:46:30	I've allowed a lot of magical and mechanical inventing, as well as straight up discoveries in my homebrew campaign...But it's a steampunky world.   Creating explosive or elemental/alchemical bolts/arrows/sling bullets, rapid fire weapons, spring-loaded what-evers, collapseable canoes and poles...None of that was out of bounds.   Of course, this was all easy with 4e rules, as AEDU powers could cover 90% of that. The other 10% were utility items, one use items, or just fell under heavily re-fluffed 'magic' as far as the game mechanics were concerned.    Anything that doesn't have a massive game mechanic impact is fluff as well. If you want to make weapons and armor that are a little better, just make them cost more money, time, a creation feat, or whatever. A serrated blade = a slashing weapon that is +1 to damage, but not +1 to hit. A scoped heavy crossbow would be +1 to hit, but not damage. Keep it simple. Fire proof armor would be heavy armor that was only +2 or +3 to AC, and gave reseistance to fire attacks, but still had all the penalties of 'heavy armor'. An explosive bolt is one use, alchemical, and either does more damage (copy an appropriate single target spell) or does damage in a 5' or 10' radius/save for half. Same with a grenade...It's a 'fireball spell'. But does piercing damage, with save for half.    What I'm trying to say is, just re-fluff magic and magic item creation, and be done with it. Or, just say you built an X with a Y attached, and be done with it.
(Reply to #18) ctrl_alt_belief	ChrisCarlson wrote: