Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Goodiebox Aug 11, 2014 7:32:16	At 11th Level, we currently see a lot of the other Martial classes reach a new tier in combat effectiveness. For the Monk, we instead see them become a class more focused toward personal Utility, but as a result falls drastically behind the others in combat effectiveness.   I've opted to Houserule in what I'm calling 'Martial Arts Master' at 11th Level for Monk, which instead allows the Monk to treat any bonus unarmed strikes granted from Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows as Free Actions. They cannot make use both mechanics following a single Attack action, and must choose one or the other.   Any sooner then 11, and it would make Monk's far too strong at the early levels where they actually do compare quite well. The idea behind it is to keep them close to on par with the other Martial Classes who continue to gain combat oriented bonuses.   I also think this opens up a lot of windows and options for a Monk player by giving them back their Bonus action slot, as well as keeping them more relevant in higher level combat. Things such as Two Weapon Fighting or Polearm Master would become much more enticing options as feats, which were previously unusable with Bonus Actions being completely dedicated to their primary damage mechanic. Think of a martial artist stabbing twice with a spear, swinging to hit with the blunt end, and then a jumping into a graceful spinning double back kick. No off-hand weapons would be able to exist on Monk as a result of their current Flurry mechanics.   How do others feel about Monk progression at 11+ compared to other Martial classes? Do you see any problem? And if so, do you think this houserule will help remedy it?
#2 Proletheus Aug 11, 2014 7:40:52	Let me say one thing first: If you don't go the Way of the Open Hand you're screwed anyway when it comes to combat effectiveness.   I noticed the missing damage increasing stuff at level 11, too. However, since your Ki Points progress lineary and your save DC increases, you'll be able to flurry and stun + knock prone every round for a single combat, recharging on a short rest. I think the monk will stay competitve because of this. Additionally, the level 17 increase (10d10 on a succesful save every 2 rounds, instakill otherwise) is so immensely powerful that I can live with the lackluster level 11 progresion.
#3 Goodiebox Aug 11, 2014 7:57:07	Proletheus wrote:
#4 ClockworkNecktie Aug 11, 2014 8:44:15	I think you're overthinking the houserule a bit; if your main goal is to increase monk damage at higher levels, just give them an extra bump in their unarmed damage die.   Now, is this even necessary? After all, monk damage was actually reduced since the alpha (where they started with d6 unarmed damage and ended at d12). Why might this be?   Let's compare a level 15 monk to a level 15 dual-wielding fighter.   We'll give the fighter the Dual Wielding feat and two rapiers (silly, but probably the best finesse DPR available). At level 15, he is doing: 3 main-hand attacks for 1d8+5, and one off-hand attack for 1d8+5.   The monk is doing: 2 main-hand attacks for 1d8+5, and one off-hand attack for 1d8+5.   Uh-oh! The monk is way behind. Unless, of course, he uses one of his 15 ki points, which brings them back to exact parity (4 attacks for 1d8+5). The fighter can blow him away for a single round with Action Surge, though.   Now, this isn't taking into account subclass abilities, but let's just call them a wash. I'd wager overall that the monk subclasses have less of an impact on damage output than Battlemaster maneuvers, but more than the Champion's improved crit.   So overall, the monk is a bit behind on DPR unless he spends his ki points to keep up (a resource the fighter doesn't have). But he can also use those ki points to stun enemies, move around in combat, or boost his defenses (plus more with subclasses). In addition, the monk gets some pretty powerful defensive abilities the fighter doesn't, while the fighter gets one really powerful offensive ability (Action Surge) that lets him do amazing burst damage, along with a few more hp.   I'd say that these two classes are already pretty well balanced. The monk is a more broadly defensive and control-oriented class, with lots of stuns, trips, etc. built in, while the fighter can surge his way to a quick kill and just relentlessly pound enemies without worrying about ki points. I also would dispute your claim that monks fall behind in "combat effectiveness;" you seem to mean "damage," while I'd argue that Stunning Strike, added mobility, and the myriad defensive benefits of the monk are just as important to effectiveness as raw damage output. So if you're going to boost the monk's damage, you'd better nerf some other aspect of the class. (Maybe let the player trade in Diamond Soul at 14 for Diamond Fists or something?)
#5 souldoubt Aug 11, 2014 10:41:48	Well said, ClockworkNecktie.   I think the monk is working as intended.  Being more mobile and better at avoiding damage and status effects, the monk will be better able to get to targets and keep on attacking, meaning any lag in damage that appears on a spreadsheet is largely going to made up for in actual gameplay.
#6 malisteen Aug 11, 2014 11:23:38	souldoubt wrote:
#7 TheMattyLee Aug 11, 2014 11:46:49	malisteen wrote:
#8 Lokiron Aug 11, 2014 12:25:20	And the fact that everyone can "full attack" AND move will help the monk avoid some of the issues it had in 3.5. That said, its reliance on the bonus action for damage might turn out to be a problem.
#9 Lokiron Aug 11, 2014 12:34:43	TWF also uses the bonus action for damage, but a fighter who needs that action for something else, just for one round, still has 3 regular attacks (at level 11). And a rogue, who needs to use cunning action instead of an off-hand attack (should he go with that in the first place), still has a lot of potential damage from sneak attack. I'm not sure my point is coming across here, but what I'm trying to say is that with the bonus action used for something besides damage, the monk seems to lose more than comparable classes. I'm not sure that's the case, but time will tell.