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| #1Xeviat-DMJun 24, 2015 0:51:11 | Hi folks! I'm still working on my new Wildshape rules, and I will post them as soon as they're done. I've been running a game with a moon druid in the group, and I'm still finding it's HP to be an issue (we're 4th level now), but I think the terrible AC of the animals makes up for the high HP past 2nd level.
At higher levels, though, everyone seems to agree that the wild shape forms become big bags of HP that can't really deal damage without resorting to beast spells, and they don't get those till level 18. So, I came up with a little fix that I think solves a lot of problems.
Why don't we improve Primal Strike? What if, in addition to making your beast natural weapons magical, it also let you do "smites" with your spell slots? Just like a paladin, it could let you expend a spell slot to deal 2d8 damage, plus 1d8 per level beyond 1st. This would allow them to deal more damage, but it would keep them on the same resource mechanic other druids deal with for their increased damage (minus cantrip damage: Poison spray is doing 4d12 damage, or 26, while the mammoth is doing 29 plus the occasional trample ... seems fair. It has +10 to hit, while a weapon user could have +11 to hit without magic items, so fairly close.
i'm still concerned about Archdruid, but that's a separate issue. |
| #2melloredJun 24, 2015 4:32:15 | If they got a big bag of HP, full caster slots, AND smites, they would probably be too powerful. Their allowed to have a weakness.
If they want to do damage, they should cast a spell. If they want to tank, they can wild shape. |
| #3Hurin88Jun 24, 2015 7:49:49 | Are you seriously suggesting that Moon Druids need buffs? |
| #4Cyber-DaveJun 24, 2015 8:29:38 | ...I'm with Hurin. I don't see any reason why Moon druids need a buff. |
| #5Xeviat-DMJun 24, 2015 18:38:12 | Word is that they are simply ignored at high levels. |
| #6kalilJun 24, 2015 22:20:54 | Word is that they are still a FULL CASTER CLASS in addition to having an ignorable hit point sink with awesome utility. |
| #7MistwellJun 24, 2015 22:32:25 | Uh, it's arguably the most powerful class in the game, at any level, and you want to make them more powerful? |
| (Reply to #5)Nevvur |
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| #9LordCorwinJun 26, 2015 8:05:52 | Moon druids are way buff already. If anything they could use toning down. |
| #10Thoughts_My_AimJun 26, 2015 12:33:17 |
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| (Reply to #10)Xeviat-DM |
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| #12NoonJul 12, 2015 18:49:39 |
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| #13GladiusLegisJul 14, 2015 15:48:37 | On a scale of bad ideas, giving Moon Druids a Smite feature ranks as among the worst I've ever seen. If you want Smites that badly, get STR and CHA 13 and pick up 2 Paladin levels. You're more MAD and, assuming you're going up to Lv. 20, you'll give up that sweet Druid capstone, but that should be the price you pay.
But, really, pure Moon Druids are plenty powerful at high levels, simply because they're full freakin' casters who STILL get free bags of hit points.
Higher-level Moon Druids can summon 16 wolves (5th-level slot) or 32 wolves (7th-level slot), then on the same turn, Wild Shape as a bonus action. Or start a fight with Reverse Gravity, then Wild Shape on the same turn. Come to think of it, who needs a Smite with those kind of things? |
| #14ZardnaarJul 15, 2015 5:39:46 |
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| #15ChrisCarlsonJul 15, 2015 7:37:55 | That sounds an awful lot like an eating your cake and having it too argument.
Not buying it. |
| #16RCanineJul 15, 2015 9:55:45 | I agree about the problem with the OP: moon druids just aren't that fun. Big bags of HP are boring for both players and DMs, and their shapes at high levels are just the same thing over and over again with higher numbers. There's also a pretty high cost of using your wild shape for the exploration pillar of the game
Were I to issue a "fix" I'd try and make the druid more like the 4E version:
If at-will wild shape is too strong, keep the same CR pool that the current druid has (e.g. at 2nd level 2 CR (1 * 2) per short rest) and let them spend that pool in any combination (e.g. 8 wild shapes into CR 1/4 creatures). |
| (Reply to #16)Xeviat-DM |
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| #18Jared711Jul 17, 2015 14:02:41 | I would like to see a Barbarian/Druid combo that gives the druid disadvantage on AC or some other weaknesses but allows them to do more damage. But that is a different topic as it would be some sort of home brew class.
That said, giving smites to a druid is not a good idea. As others have said they have a lot going for them, they don't do the damage but they have other options. If they have Paladin 2, then they can smite...
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| #19Xeviat-DMJul 17, 2015 20:50:22 | I'm open to being convince otherwise, so please, convince me otherwise. A druid with smite is going to be choosing between dealing more damage, healing themselves, or using their spells. Considering trading between healing or casting spells for defense or damage is the trade off that clerics and bards have, I'm still not convinced that such a trade off would be bad for Druids, especially when high level druids are able to cast spells in their wild forms to begin with. |
| #20KangodoJul 18, 2015 2:03:38 | Because they are already on the border of being overpowered. That's why it's a bad idea. |
| (Reply to #20)Xeviat-DM |
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| #22randlJul 18, 2015 10:46:50 | If your really feel the Druid needs some more DPS to go with its great survivability, just giving the Druid Smite is a bad idea. First, it is taking a major feature of one class and giving it to a subclass of another. It would make being a Paladin pointless. Not only would you be giving the Druid the Paladin's major feature, it will be flat out better with more slots and faster progression as a full caster. A closer example should be more along the lines of a Cleric getting extra damage on an attack at 8th level. Otherwise, maybe if you reduced the damage significantly from Smite and used it as a replacement for the spell slots to heal ability and not an add-on. |
| #23GladiusLegisJul 18, 2015 13:23:33 | Moon Druids already step pretty hard on the toes of several other classes. They don't need to have the Paladin's melee burst damage in addition to that. |
| #24VulfJul 18, 2015 15:10:10 | If the hitpoints are a problem, increase the number of enemies that have lower attack, but can still hit low ac targets. Like a half dozen goblin short bows. After seeing a couple of their arrows bounce of the more heavily armored adventurers, they turn their attacks to the larger softer target.
Also make their increased size in bear form an issue. Narrow corridors mean squeezing gives enemies advantage.
Don't allow them short rests inside dungeons, but spread the encounters an hour apart. Make a reason for them to leave beast form, such as the only way to proceed is through a hole in the ceiling, a chain dangling through it and bolted to the floor.
The chain goes up several stories through a smooth vertical passage where it is bolted finally to the ceiling in a small alcove. You have just enough room to place your feet, because opening up before you is a dangerous looking room. The floor of the new chamber has fallen away and a filthy bubbling acid oozes a dozen feet below. The only way out of the room is a precarious treck along the wall where remnants of the floor offer toe holds, and some dried vines offer a few chances for grip. You definitely need hands with opposable thumbs and small clawless toes to survive!
Have damaging terrain that smaller characters can jump or walk around. Have ledges only 5 feet wide that they have to "squeeze" on to prevent from falling. Have difficult terrain that is waist deep water, except smaller creatures like cats have to swim in. And later they find:
The only way to proced is through an underwater passage, but the current poses a problem. Luckily there seems to be the remnants of something similar to a ladder. If you can pull yourself along the ladder, you should be able to reach a point where you can breathe air again. You can definitely make it if you have hands with thumbs to pull yourself along, or if you were a crocodile and succeeded on several endurance and athletics tests. This passage is large enough for a large crocodile to pass through, but what if the next one narrows?
Create opportunities for them to waste their wild shape to become small creatures like a cat or a bat to gain some kind of advantage for a future encounter, or to open a door for the party from the other side, something a familiar or mage-hand couldn't do. |
| #25ZardnaarJul 18, 2015 15:44:33 |
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| #26KangodoJul 18, 2015 18:11:16 |
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| #27Xeviat-DMJul 18, 2015 21:58:23 | Wait, Vulf, you're saying to take away the moon druid's entire schtick by not allowing them to utilize it? Do you rob the land druid of their additional spell slots, ability to ignore difficult terrain, and defensive bonuses?
I've run a game with a moon druid from 1st through 5th level. The game was combat heavy, so I feel safe in saying that we had enough fights to judge the strength of the class at that time. It was fine then, if not a little overpowered at first (we balanced things by restricting them to CR 1/2 forms at level 2). If I were to go and give them smite, it wouldn't be until 6th level (when they get their magic natural weapons).
I ran some quick numbers, and smite does make the druid deal more damage than a rogue at 6th level. It was only by about 5 damage per round more, but that's a sizable difference at level 6. This is assuming, though, that the druid uses all of their spell slots for smites instead of self healing or any other thing. This was also using the polar bear as a comparison, who has AC 12 vs the rogue's AC 16, and their HP is rougly the same (rogue has 39 or 45 depending on a Con of 12 or 14, polar bear has 42 hp). If they're really blowing through their spell slots for smite damage, they're going to have to fall back on cantrips when they drop down to druid form (but I already think reverting to druid form with basically no damage is terribly unfair).
The fighter can choose to take lower AC to deal more damage (shield vs. great weapon), so why not the druid?
The current druid, though, could be a bear, who deals about 2 damage per round less than the rogue, and burn all of their spell slots on healing every single round, ontop of still turning back into a druid if they're knocked down to 0.
Heck, I'd go as far as saying that a druid should take damage equal to the max hp of the for they changed into when they drop to 0 in beast form (or the amount of damage it had taken so far if they drop out early), rather than just having overflow damage hit them. That would cure my issue of their endless HP, and Arch Druid would go back to being a partially utility power (switch forms willy nilly, rather than getting endless healing).
I was generous with the comparison; I'll do a comparison of the rogue vs. a mammoth at level 18 and see how things look then, later. |
| (Reply to #27)Jared711 | I would never give smite to a druid.
Give a different ability such as
Blood rage - d8 + 2 * spell level. This ability can be used after a hit is determined.
When you use this ability you take damage equal to the blood rage damage dealt.
Lets you trade your hit points for extra damage.
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| #29VulfJul 19, 2015 2:23:54 | I'm not saying that techniques to deny the party resources should be used ALL the time. Just a few times to make it more interesting and force the party to be more creative.
And if you want the Druids to be be better in combat, they can take a multiclass dip into a combat focused class.
Like it is suggested, 2 levels of Paladin would give them Smite and a Fighting style. They could take Mariner for +1 ac and a swim speed + climb speed for any of their forms.
Or They could take a few levels of Barbarian. While shapeshifted, they can add their constitution to their dex for their AC. Rage increases the damage they do on all their strength based attacks, and halves the damage they take with their shapeshift hitpoint pool. A little further and they can pick up extra attack (letting them attack twice with the claws instead of claw and bite) and Bear Totem to have resistance against magic damage while raging too. With a slight increase in the bonus rage damage, along with wreckless attack.
Don't worry about druid capstone, no adventure goes to level 20 anyway. Taking levels of Paladin will mean you take less of a hit to your caster level, and you have access to a lot of paladin spells that give you bonus damage on a hit. You can also get the aura that increases all your saving throws by your charisma modifier, which may not be high, so take spells that don't require high charisma. |
| #30ZardnaarJul 19, 2015 3:56:07 |
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| #31GladiusLegisJul 19, 2015 5:38:28 |
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| #32ElfcrusherJul 19, 2015 7:27:12 | How about an option to burn spell slots for more Wild Shapes? |
| #33cassi_brazucaJul 19, 2015 9:08:45 |
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| #34VulfJul 19, 2015 11:02:03 | A level 15 circle of the moon Druid can wild shape into a Triceratops.
That thing has 22 strength, 95 hitpoints, and a Charging multi attack that knocks an enemy prone after a gore and then gets a stomp. If the target is already prone, you can do the stomp without them needing to fail the strength save.
4d8+6 gore and 3d10+6 stomp.
Is this not good enough at higher levels? You could cast spider climb before changing, and the triceratops could walk upside down along the ceiling. or use stoneskin to gain resistance. The elementals you can change into already are resistant. |
| #35edwin_suJul 19, 2015 11:49:47 |
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| #36ZardnaarJul 19, 2015 12:21:17 |
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| #37VulfJul 19, 2015 12:54:24 | Well, this is around the same level the druid learns Tsunami, right? Cast that, then turn into a Triceratops, then keep chasing the wave ramming the enemy, lol. |
| #38GladiusLegisJul 19, 2015 13:02:37 |
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| #39edwin_suJul 19, 2015 13:15:11 |
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| #40Xeviat-DMJul 19, 2015 13:52:28 | The druid in my game was careful to not use two wildshapes in a single encounter unless either they felt it was very tough or if they still has their wildshape active from an earlier fight (she once also used it twice to escape a grapple, which wasn't in the rules but I ruled it was okay).
As for not giving a subclass a base class's ability: the immortal mystic has an ability that is functionally smite. I know it's new and I know a lot of people won't play with paionics, but there it is. Taking one thing from a class flr another is also shown in the UA variant classes, the DMG section on customization, and in many (albeit more gineric abilities) like extra attack and combat style. I think that's hardly a reason to discount it. |
| #41GladiusLegisJul 19, 2015 14:22:16 |
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| #42GladiusLegisJul 19, 2015 14:35:52 |
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