This is my homebrew Kensei Class and Associated Martial Arts rules.
Balanced as you want it to be (read this first)
If a DM believes that a particular option is too much for their campaign, I suggest they put that option on haitus
and have the kensei use some other option. There are plenty of 'safe' options in this rules set. There's some
special goodies to making your own magic items or re-enacting Fist of the North Star, but there's also plenty
of down to earth practical low magic setting themes. Use what you like, skip what you don't. No pressure.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B498kH-Pzam_a0t1aUhldlNKT2c/view?usp=sharing
(this is version 1.4, updated based on testing and feedback, for clarity, formatting, and typos)
it is for public view, in PDF format, as far as I can tell.
This homebrew class brings some new concepts to the table.
Kinda like a Paladin Variant
The kensei is a hybrid of samurai and monk, much in the same way the paladin is a hybrid of knight and cleric.
When i looked up the history of Miyamoto Musashi, it turned out he was born into a samurai family, and then
after his parents had a divorce, went to live in a Buddhist Monastery before becoming the legend we know now.
Homeless Bum with Sword; Will Work for Food
The kensei eschews warrior standard magic items, including armor, shields, and weapons, which means the loot
distribution requirements for a kensei are very low, and can go to the other warrior classes. I think that can probably
make a lot of other players very happy. The stereotype "monk with a sword" is ok - I am not offended.
There are several abilities introduced that monks do not have, and several abilities monks have that kensei do not.
In retrospect, I probably pulled more rules relevant material from the Barbarian than the Monk.
Flavor Text Optional
There are text boxes. Generally, if there's a text box with a tiny font and blue background, that normally means
it is an optional rule. The only time this rule of thumb is less true is when I'm using a text box to make the words
visible in front of an image, I think that only happens once. This homebrew class also makes light references to
the Mystic class. If you do not use the mystic class or plan on doing so, you are free to ignore those sections.
Introduces DIY Martial Arts for Everybody!
This rules set allows Non-kensei to use feats to purchase martial arts styles. The "Do it yourself martial arts"
are vast and come in many varieties and flavors, and act like mini-classes unto themselves. With this system
you could probably build a whole portfolio of different monk variants with different schools.
The martial arts introduced here use something i call a "movement based economy". You spend portions of
your movement to do a variety of different attacks or combos, and once it's all spent, you can only do moves
that cost no movement. This was a particularly different way of managing potential balances that I experienced
in previous editions, where people with multiple attacks would just use their strongest attacks over and over
with no legitimate reason to use a weaker one. Some attacks actually inflict "movement" damage, in a sense
and you are probably familiar with most of those concepts already, like spells that knock a person back a
number of feet.
Really fricken huge weapons
it's hinted at early in the document but goes all out in the martial arts section. There are rules presented here
for people to wield those absurdly over sized weapons you see in various films and novels.
Occidental and Oriental
The kensei is broken into two subclasses, the Pure Weapon master, and the Martial Arts Master. The martial
arts rules include ways to use weapons, but they are flavored more like a dojo. The Pure Weapon character
is just focused on what they can get out of their chosen weapon. This is where the two deviate heavily, because
the Weapon master is more like the 3rd edition enchanted blade with special effects class, and the Martial
Artist is more about throwing in some punches, kicks, and flips in with whatever (if any) weapon they use.
Basically, the Weapon master is occidental, like European Fencers, unarmored Knights, and so on, although
this is not always the case. Many would argue Europe has martial Arts, not just guys with swords. Thumbs up
to you guys.
Likewise, not every oriental kensei will be a martial arts master. Some might have to spend feats to acquire
the slots to use them like everyone else, especially if their sword or whatever weapon has really peculiar
special effects.
For low magic Campaigns
If the sword saint enchanted aspect bothers you, delay the +3 to 11th, and the +2 to 7th, as per the Magic Weapon spell. If it still bothers you, it may be too powerful for your campaign.
it's 18 pages long, i can understand if it's a bit daunting to examine, but for those with the time, feedback would be most welcome!
IMO it's too powerfull. Gaining a +3 weapon at level 9? That's artifact level 20 characters are not guaranteed to ever get such a weapon in 5e. Not to mention that the kensai cann add rare/very rare/legendary enhancement of his choice on top of that at certain level.
On top of that they get +1 higher proficiency than everybody else and add half of that to all saves?
And three extra attacks like a fighter?
And bonus feats like a fighter?
And a second fighting style like only the champion gets?
Is there anything that the kensai is not flat out superior to a fighter (or every other class)?
There are a few interesting concepts, but all in back to the drawing board (unless you deliberately wanted to create a high power class for a high power campaign without the standard classes)
Mirtek wrote:
shintashi wrote:
you were definitely right about the typo. I didn't notice it until now. I'm fixing the commas right now. They had listed too many ability modifiers... probably because i was using that text space to keep track of level based abilities or something.
the new upload should be done in about 25 minutes. (it only lets me convert the word to pdf once every 25 minutes), in the mean time, i will attempt to address further questions, and hopefully you can find more errors ^_^
burnt to a crisp is true. however, with the shield feat, your base bonus is +2, and up to +5 with enchantment. So if you had a 20 dex fighter at 20th level, with a shield +3, that would be +10 saves vs. fire breath or fireball, with success reducing damage to 0, and failure still reducing damage to 1/2. To back that up, he has a 20 constitution +5 base, and +6 proficiency granting +11 to constitution saves. Outside of martial arts kensei (who don't get the magic swords of shiny special effects) Kensei will typically not have high constitution, simply because they are stuck prioritizing dex and wisdom, although it can theoretically happen. A 20th level kensei probably has their 20 in dex and wisdom, and maybe something like 16 in Constitution, which is +3. With their special abiltiy, +3 more puts them at +6 saves for constitution, vs. the fighter's +11. The fighter averages 21, the kensai averages 16.
Green dragons are poison saves. So are purple worms. Actually, a lot of saving throws are constitution saves, so losing the constitution save and getting the Dex save is about par for course. My first dragon in AL was Green. ^_^
10 rounds per day? Well, more like 50 rounds per day. They have 27 points to spend 
i've not yet been in an adventure where i had more than 5 consective combats in a single day, and can't think of a fight that lasted 10 rounds, so i think that's a game master dynamics issue.
on the flip side, it could be argued that while the kensei only has a +2 weapon at level 5, instead of a +3, there will be combats, somewhere, at some point, that take more than 50 rounds, and then
they can finally brag about having a better weapon than the Mystic, until sundown at least ^_~
but that's an old argument about game design. Ammo vs. unlimited. I had a player who had a jacked up Champions character with ammo, but his ammo was sufficiently high enough that he never ran out in any of the battles, so the net result was he simply did more damage for less costs, and that's how the mystic will outshine the kensei. I'm fine with that.
i should probably mention just about anyone can do a psychic duel. The actual class feature the kensei gets isn't psychic duel, it's advantage during a psychic duel. Never did figure out whether I should make additional notes for psychic classes or races. I would presume a mystic, illithid, and githyanki all are treated as having advantage too. Anyone have ideas on that?
Also been thinking about treating the kensei's weapon/martial art focus as their Attunement. This is a unique 5th edition feature that allows us to build in a disadvantage for the kensei that previous editions simply didn't have. Since we are normally limited to 3 attuned items, this means the kensei would technically have a max of 2 attuned magic items instead, and those two items would not be allowed to be a weapon, shield, nor armor, nor armor simulating items like Bracers of Defense.
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Mystics are still being playtested, and many people find them too strong already. Best not to use them as a benchmark for anything.
To say that one class is stronger than another because it has whatever save proficiencies is just to say that different cases yield different results. Generally, CON=DEX=WIS, and STR=INT=CHA. CHA will feel like the best save when you aren't banished to another universe, but overall gets less mileage than DEX. It's a moot point.
Bringing in feats is another thing one shouldn't do, unless comparing specific feats against each other.
Magic items are so tangential to class balance that I wouldn't try tying them to it. No one gets a +3 weapon for free. Who will have them and when is highly dependent on the DM; some will allow players to get one randomly at low levels, some will never give them, some will give them as story-based rewards much later on. Then, it feels a bit like "minmaxed" class design: giving the class a minor weakness, then using that as a reason to add extra power to it that also entirely negates the weakness.
Still reading through the document, but this is my reaction to the discussion so far.
I wonder if anyone would be willing to playtest the class, say, levels 1-5, and let me know how it worked out.
I'm especially curious to see how it pairs up with the Mystic and how it feels in actual play.
I probably spent 3 weeks writing and formatting it. Here's a sample 1st level character.
Raphael, Human Kensei
str. . .14. . .. . . int. . .9
dex. .16. . .. . ..wis. .15
con. .13. . . . . .cha. .11
saves: str +3, dex +3, con +2, cha +1, wis +2
Special attacks: max damage (13), 1/long rest
Immunities: Fear
Initiative +4, Advantage on Initiative Rolls
Hit Points: 11
Armor Class: 13
Attack: Rapier (finesse) +5 to hit, 1d8+5 to damage (dueling style)
Challenge Rating 1/4 (50 XP)
I think the +3 is going to be the thing people argue with the most. It will probably be another year before the dust is settled and people see lots of abilities in that range, probably because there actually aren't any dungeons out yet for level 16+.
Sorry for the lengthy feedback post, but it's a lengthy class.
One skill proficiency. Please don't do that. Even barbarians get two. You need non-combat utility. Maybe you're trying to convert a skill proficiency to a tool proficiency with the artisan's tools or instrument? Those aren't valued at the same level. Tool proficiencies are basically fluff; they should be left to backgrounds.
This is also a general problem with the class. You have meditation, but everything else is intensely combat-centric. This makes for a somewhat crippled adventurer. The DM has to tailor a campaign to this character, or a lot of their features have to be shoehorned in to justify their existence. A campaign backdrop and a character class should, ideally, be separate things. Lose some of the more intense flavor stuff, add some more general non-combat options.
Dexterity and Wisdom are both "primary" saves. This is too strong. Everyone gets one of CON/DEX/WIS and one of STR/INT/CHA.
What you've summarized in two class "features" is actually 6 unique bonuses, all worthy of being independent features, all at level 1. (Plus Martial Arts later, it seems like.) Some of these need to go, or be moved to specific later levels. Asking the user of your class to do it themself is asking them not to use your class. If I have to do extra work balancing a homebrew class before I'm comfortable using it, I'm just going to skip the whole enterprise.
Fearless: not sure why you specify "whether conscious, hallucinating, or dreaming." Just say they're immune. Further, "being intimidated" is not a status effect one makes a save against, so you can't be immune to it. Leave it at the "frightened" effect, as let roleplay handle it from there.
Psychic Duel: what DC are you saving against? It would make more sense to make Wisdom checks, and see who wins. Inspiration is a tool for the DM to encourage RP and such, class features should never give it out. "Advantage on next attack" if you want. Losing inspiration is similarly an absolute "no." Honor is also RP-based, and shouldn't be given point-by-point for exercising a class feature by rote. Comparing level is clunky, especially since most enemies will come from the Monster Manual and don't have a level. Finally, penalties that basically make you useless for the entire battle, essentially on a coin-flip, are a no go.
A much smoother way to do this is to have the loser become Frightened, and give conditions for when it ends. Of course, the kensei is immune to being frightened, but you could just as easily get rid of that.
Not sure why it should protect against Compel Duel. If anything, a duel-driven honor-hound should be especially vulnerable to that spell. I would lose this passage, as well.
Natural Defense: Remove the interaction with Defensive Duelist. Also not sure what "similar features" you're talking about. I don't think you need that sentence. DEX+prof is actually better than what monks and barbarians get, because it lets you beat an armored character's AC with minimal investment. I'd make it DEX+another stat, probably WIS, to match up.
Ki Focus: Using ki to maximize damage is tricky. Multiclass Assassin or Paladin and this can explode out of control. I would do nothing more than add dice of damage.
Void Soul: monks get omni-proficiency at a much later level, and it's a big deal. Paladins add their bonus to everyone near them, so they raise the floor for the whole party, rather than surpassing everyone. Half proficiency as a level 1 effect alongside a fistful of other effects is too much. I don't see this as necessary to the archetype, so I'd cut it. Also, saying that it doesn't stack with Diamond Soul is superfluous, it already specifies non-proficient saves.
Zen Awareness: this is the Alert feat. Lose this feature, let them spend resources on it.
Sword Saint: not sure what the value of magical attacks is, but surely level 3 is a little early. Static bonuses to damage, as a class feature, are probably not too OP, but I'm not sure why they scale to level 9 and then stop.
Lose the entire Honor and Dignity sidebar. I have big problems with all of those effects, some of which I've already outlined. Mainly, you're using combat mechanics to enforce roleplay. Just let that play itself out.
No problems with Meditation, except that it happens at the same time as an ASI. Move it to level 2, maybe.
Frightful Presence: being permanent and automatic in a 120ft range is nuts. Look at Draconic Presense, a level 18 feature for sorcerers. As a suggestion, I might let the character spend ki after an attack to frighten the target, or someone nearby. Or, a frighten AoE after you win a Psychic Duel, to intimidate the other riffraff.
Whirlwind Attack: oddly limited. You can save page space by not forcing all attacks to have the same "properties." Just have it make an attack against each target. I wouldn't have this expend movement, since this creates a really annoying action economy trap where you have to reach a perfect spot, but you have to move on the previous turn and hope everyone's still in position afterward, since you can't move and then attack. Expending all ki might be pretty steep too; very rarely will this give you 20 attacks or whatever. Maybe 1 or 2 ki per target.
Also, Extra Attack itself is a class feature. Whirlwind Attack should be at a different level.
Duels, Death, and Dishonor: this is a very lengthy heading, basically codifying what should be story-based elements into combat mechanics. If the DM wants to make a story about kensei finding and dueling each other, they can do all of this without class features. If they don't, this is forcing a lot of RP baggage into the class, and the DM may well ignore all of it. Honestly, I would cut all of this stuff. You can make a separate homebrew supplement that expands on these ideas to give DMs ideas for fun ways to run "wandering duelist" games, but including it in this class makes it feel like sloppy design.
Weapon Style: lose the superfluous note that a weapon style must be compatible with your weapon.
Balestra Lunge: separate the mechanic and flavor text. "You can leap forward and back in the blink of an eye while attacking. While wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, your weapon gains the Reach property." But you don't need the flavor text, really. Let the player describe it. Maybe their attacks make ripples of razor-sharp wind or something. I don't think you need the initiative bonus.
En Garde: consolidate. "When wielding any weapon with the Finesse or Two-Handed properties, you have a +1 bonus to AC."
Weapon Master: just let them take any feat they want. This shuts out other homebrew feats or future releases, and encourages the player not to take a feat they really want until they get this feature, because they can't reassign feats.
You have subclass features coming at level 3 and 7, but you already have base class features at those levels. In your class progression table, count "subclass feature" as class features alongside everything else, and place them between other features.
Spiritual Enhancement: couldn't say if magical enhancements are equal to class features. What I would say is that magical items are impossible to balance against character progression. If anyone else gets a good magic item, the bulk of your subclass features are now playing catchup, and you lose identity.
A more elegant solution might be to allow the character to meditate with their chosen weapon and a magic one, transferring the enchantment into their weapon or copying it. This doesn't tie together the totally incompatible economies of magic weapons and class features. The DM can ensure that you find weapons of other kensei or your ancestors for copying, to keep RP justification.
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There's a bit too much to Martial Arts for me to comment on. It's extremely complicated for 5e's paradigm, but that isn't a bad thing if there's an audience for it. Just a couple things I picked up on:
- Another feature to add to the pile of things you get at first level. You seem to want a well-trained, iron-willed, iconic character at level 1, but that's not how it works. You need to earn that badassery. A level 1 kensei of this class feels like a level 3 or 5 character, at least. These features really need spreading to later levels.
- If I take a Soft style with the Block method, that's +5 AC. That + maxed DEX + proficiency + 10 = 26 AC, with barely any investment. You note that AC doesn't stack with WIS bonuses for some reason, but conveniently the kensei gets proficiency added instead. If you're going to modify AC, avoid go beyond +1 or +2, or just make it an alternate AC formula that doesn't "stack" with Unarmored Defense and the like.
- Dojos and students: these have no place in a class's features. This is all background. You even talk about quest hooks.
- The entire Martial Arts section is especially guilty of heavy flavor text and listing the Japanese words for various terms. Boil this down to the effects. The player can imagine how something looks just fine. As is, it's incredibly long and dense, which makes it really hard to glance through the class and see if I want to use it in my home game, or shop around and compare options quickly when building a character.
That's it for now. In short: the biggest issue is separating flavor text and class mechanics. A lot of stuff in there is tied up with stuff that should be background details or free-formed during roleplay.
depending on the edition, some classes got a big ability dump at level 1, and then floated scant abilities later on. The original kensAI (AD&D kensei) got everything except their 'more attacks than a fighter" power by level 12. They got the 'better than fighter' at level 15, the last anything they recieved. Like Barbarians, they could strike as magical weapons up to +5. Unlike barbarians, they also got a +5 to hit and a +5 to damage. I never really understood why it was written the way it was, and i ddin't like that everything was crunched into the first few levels, but some aspects are more iconic than others. One of the odd things about the 1st edition kensAI was the lack of proficiencies. The OA book even had a little speech about how few slots they had left because they spent their whole lives dedicated to their 1 weapon.
I have the following slots open:
2nd
6th
13th
14th
17th
feel free to suggest which powers that pop at 1st level or other low levels, should be moved to one of these other level slots.I think if we move roughly half the level 1 powers into these other slots, it would probably be cleaner for 5e multiclassing, although you might have noticed this article is very self aware of which powers don't cross over with other class abilities.
The kensei fear is tweaky. I set it at CR 1, so it has a huge radius but its practically flavor text for all the good it does. Kensei cannot be intimidated or frightened. That's probably one of those "only the kensei has this feature WTF mate?". I'm fine with that. The kensei introduces a number of mechanics that have not been seen before, like the proficiency growth based Armor Class, which is literally "no bonus" at level 1-4.
You are pretty close with that calculation for the 26 Armor class, except, they don't add +10, they add +8. So the level 17 kensei has 6 +8 base +5 from Dex, is 19, +5 more from wisdom, is 24 max. That 24 at super high level is for a style that does between 1d3 and 1d6 damage and doesn't get a bonus attack like the other styles. (not to mention no flaming vorpal weapons)
Barbarian, 24 constitution, 20 dexterity, using a shield: 10 + 7+ 5 + 2 = 24 AC as well. ^_~
that's not a coincidence.
I recently added another flaw which will appear in the next version. Attunement. you are attuned to your weapon style as if it were a magical item, and it counts against your maximum total (of 3) attuned items. This means the kensei loses 33% access to magical items they might find useful. Coupled with the lack of magical armor, magical shields, magical defensive armor-like items, and weapons, definitely.
kensei flavor text is akin to the oath flavor text for paladins.
I also want to point out, using DMG page 231, non kensei could learn all sorts of martial arts without using their basic feats, following the "training' rules.
Kensei get their proficiencies on the "back end" through backgrounds and certain martial arts, that let them spend maneuvers for skills and tools. The guys with the funny holy vorpal swords don't get martial arts and would have to use feats to get more skills.
kensei aren't OP, they just present a different way of looking at balance. My wife thinks they are too weak, actually.
depending on the edition, some classes got a big ability dump at level 1, and then floated scant abilities later on. The original kensAI (AD&D kensei)
This is awesome if only just for the martial arts conversion you've done.
On a related note, and not necessarily applied to this class, a way to model the "psychic duel" would be to have either an ability or feat that let you use Intimidate foe vs. your opponent's Charisma (same mechanics as a Shove) but only if you have at least one round to do so before combat begins, and only against sentient opponents. On a success, your opponent has Disadvantage against you for the next minute. So sort of like Fear, but doesn't have to run away from you.
Or not.
EDIT: I will point out that the argument "In D&D edition X the Kensai had Y ability" probably isn't going to be very persuasive.
Ok first off you've got this wierd formatting quirk that makes your chart a lot less useful.
Samurai Heritage and Zen Master for example are actually 2-3 abilities with their own names and effects, but for soem reason you grouped them up and put the name of the group on the chart instead of the name of the powers. Unless the intent was that you'd pick some of the abilities under a heading, and not get the others, there doesn't seem to be much point to this.
Right now all this does is make it look like you're trying to hide how OP the class is by condensing all the abilities.
Elfcrusher wrote:
The problem isn't that you're using past editions for inspiration, it's that you're not updating to 5e standards.
For example this class is pretty frontloaded, making it easy to multi-class for a level or two and grab a ton of bennies. There's a reason you need to be careful with the low level powers in 5e and thats because they brought back 3e style multi-classing. Pre-3 editions didn't have to worry about that kind of thing as much because multi-classing didn't work like that, but 3e style, and thus 5e style, multi-classing makes sniping low level class features easy.
rampant wrote:
cbwjm wrote:
No see you need to break those powers up and spread them out accross the progression more. Just saying "oh the fighters won't be able to do X with Y because Z" doesn't help.
BEcause of the need to avoid cherry picking most of the classes are a lot less powerful at low levels. So that means that even if cherry picking was somehow not a problem for Kensai you're still OP because you've frontloaded all those features. Why did you group them up like that? anyway Why not let the separate abilities be separate? Furthemrore The fighters can benefit form dipping. Dex fighters especially since prof bonus to AC is better than any non-heavy armor so going without armor is not abig deal, loosing shields hurts a bit but honestly the offensive builds don't use them and dex fighters have a lot of offensive builds. Multi-weapon comes to mind.
Also a fighter doens't loose the ability to ranged weapons and such when he multi-classes, he just can't use kensai powers with ranged wepons. So they'd be able to do just fine with their other weapons should they fele the need to use them.
Try to make the features say things like 'don't stack with similar abilities' or such nonsense doens't work because 1. You haven't defined similar abilities, and 2. because new stuff will come up as the edition goes on. Basically you have to use the level system to keep the good powers away form the delliatantes rather than trying to play stupid games with trying to make everything not stack.
Basically you're trying way to hard to make it like an oldschool class rather than a 5e class.
Question: Which features would you delay to which levels?
i think perspective is important when deciding class features. I agree some starting features should be bumped around, and the dipping of other classes needs to be mitigated. I have recently added the Zen feature aspect to a chain of abilities, and tied them all to the unarmored defense. When you are wearing armor/shield, not only is your unarmored defense shut down,
but the following whole tree:
natural defense/ki focus/void soul/zen awareness/meditation/whirlwind attack.
I haven't commited yet to setting up the Samurai heritage tree, as similar restrictions are largely in place already.
I think stopping with the trees at this half way point, and picking one or two powers from first level to move further down might work.
When taking Kensei, from the perspective of another class, here's what I notice:
Kensei/Rogue
first of all, having even 1 level in any other class except fighter (yay fighter!) will 86 your 4th attack.
So if you had the max damage ability combined with sneak attack, you might have 3 attacks and the
backstab would be +1d6, or you might have 1 attack and using thief's reflexes, could perhaps backstab
for max damage (60+8+5 = 73), and follow up with a second attack, such as d8+5,
putting your damage output at 79-86, once per day, before it went back to 1d8+5, plus 10d6 during regular
sneak attacks. A fighter with 4 attacks per round is looking at maybe 1d10-12+5-17,
or about 24-116, and 48-232 once per day possibly 4d12 more with maneuvers or using them to hit better.
Thus taking a single level dip for the rogue seems like it might provide a neat once per day advantage,
plus fearless, in exchange for losing their "automatic hit/natural 20 ability check" once per short rest. I
could see how this might benefit a rogue sort of, like, ok, they get AC 19 at 20th level, which is still hit by
almost every high level monster in existence, but its lighter than leather, I suppose. What would be a
real impact might be the 1/2 saving throw bonus. The 3rd level assassinate ability, only works on surprise,
which rogues are really good at getting, and that critical hits their sneak attack, which instead doubles dice.
You would lose the "twice actions' thief reflexes ability, but could get death stroke instead.
kensei/assassin
I think if you death stroked a critical hit with a ki strike, that would be double damage double dice maxed,
so in theory, 20d6+2d8+5 maxed is 120+16+5 doubled is 240+32+10 is 282 in one hit. The ki thing
might be nice, but i don't see how it's having a real impact on someone who is already rolling
40d6+4d8+10... unless i misread "death strike".Which is entirely possible.
assassin vs. kensei vs. evoker
Actually, the ki strike is vaguely similar to the Evoker Overchannel, except that spell is designed for
fireball, which does like 8-10d6, to around 10-20 foes, which is like a distribution of 80d6-100d6,
whereas ki strike was intended to turn d8s into 8, and 2-4 attacks at d8+8 into 2-4 attacks at 16.
kensei/eldritch knight
As a kensei, taking any non fighter class to supplement your own will have to compesate for a loss of 25% of
your attacks. I could see how combining a kensei with an eldritch knight might work. The guy could have
a bonded Daisho katana/wakizashi (long/short sword) combo that couldn't be disarmed, could be summoned,
and could be combined with casting cantrips. a 13 Eknight/7 kensei would have a +2 sword, 7 max
damage attacks per day, 4 attacks per round, and fireball. i'm cool with that - reminds me of my
ranger/cleric of light.who had a +2 bow and could also cast fireball.
Clearly we are failing to communicate.
shintashi wrote:
shintashi wrote:
Right, so, new stuff.
First, non-combat. Most classes get lots of stuff they can do in general adventuring, aside from combat. Fighters probably get the least, but you should get at least as much as them.
I would make the second subclass ability, which I've placed at level 7, a non-combat effect. Maybe for weapon users, you can enter a state of heightened awareness once per day. You get something like advantage on DEX and WIS saves, ability to walk on walls and water (but must be on solid ground or fall at the end of your turn), limited blindsight, and increased jump distance.
For martial artists, it's hard to say, because I don't understand what they gain and when. A simple chart of everything stuff would be really helpful. Or is maneuver slots all they get? Because if so, they need some distinct features at specific levels, to make a Kensei martial artist meaningfully different from any other. (Otherwise just let them access the feat chain like everyone else, and give them unique stuff.)
Anyway, you could adapt and simplify some stuff from Duels, Death, and Dishonor. Use an action to open your awareness. You can "see" everything within 200ft or so, but not all at once. You still need to make perception checks to notice certain things (like traps), but you're aware of the general locations of creatures, and can try to identify specific people within your awareness. Have it cost ki maybe, like 1 or 2 per minute.
Frightful Presence should be reworked and promoted to a full feature. As I said before, you could spend 1 ki when you hit with an attack to target an enemy (within 30ft or so) and make them save against frighten. Or make it a social bump. You have advantage on Intimidation checks against humanoids. If you choose, you can focus your will on a target (like a shopkeeper or guard); on failed save, they're dominated by your presence, though they're not sure why. Mechanically, they are Charmed, since they're intimidated into doing what you say.
For one of those empty levels, you could build on Psychic Duel. Let's assume that normally, both participants in the Duel roll WIS checks, and the loser is Frightened. Now, you can also move up to your speed toward the enemy, and the enemy can move toward you if they want. If within reach of each other, the winner also makes an attack against the loser, which is a critical if it hits. The player should have advantage on this (or something) to swing things in their favor for most fights. Make sure this happens before anyone takes a turn, so it doesn't go wonky with Assassin and such. Or you can simplify it, just say that whenever you win a Psychic Duel, the enemy takes some amount of damage.
Or don't tie it to the Duel. Whenever you roll initiative and aren't Surprised, you can move your speed and smack something.
What else...a generic power to disarm would be good for a duelist. But instead of disarming, you could use ki and vibrations and stuff to shatter weapons. Beat a certain DC to destroy a normal weapon as a reaction to being hit. If it's a magic weapon, the intense vibration doesn't hurt the weapon, but hurts the user and makes them drop the weapon. If the attacker is unarmed, just do damage, and maybe stun. Probably spend ki to do this.
I have updated the File to the 1.3 version. I will not be updating it again for a while excepting typographical errors or layout loading issues.. If some aspects still bother you, I would recommend you edit the placement of powers or simply skip the class and go to the martial arts section (monk levels count as kensei levels for prerequisites)..If you have a concern or a question, I will do my best to answer and find a solution, especially for unforseen multiclass dipping power issues.. It is balanced for my campaign now, but you may find it OP for your campaign, especially if you discard flavor text or roleplaying aspects as inconsequential or too punishing to implement.
Thank you all for your input!
P.S. Thinking of adding a martial arts/asian weapons section, if anyone would like me to do that.
I have updated the Kensei:
Link ---> My Homebrew Kensei version 1.4
In this version, I have added a Weapons Appendix and a brief list of sample Martial Arts. I have also added some rules modifications to prevent potential rules abuse for high damage combos and bring them more in line with the number of times other classes can expect similar damage spikes. Martial Arts weapons and style theories have been integrated more organically into the maneuvers, and a section on high quality steel Martensite/Pearlite metallurgy has been added so people can have their Masamune blades and Toledo Steel Rapiers-- and give Alchemists something to do *_*
Most notably, I have clarified the title and difference between Weapon Masters and Martial Artists. These are the two Archetype Subclasses of the Kensei, and it is important to understand the differences. The reason the table doesn't display their features is because they have mismatching feature numbers and levels, as follows:
Weapon. . . . . Martial
Master. . . . . . Artist
1st. . . . . . . . . .1st
3rd. . . . . . . . . .N/A
N/A. . . . . . . . . 5th
7th. . . . . . . . . .7th
N/A . . . . . . . . .9th
10th. . . . . . . . .N/A
N/A. . . . . . . . .12th
15th . . . . . . . .15th
18th . . . . . . . .18th
The Martial Artist receives 2 maneuvers at 1st level, and a total of 8 maneuvers at 18th level. The Weapon Master abilities are a little stronger than the Maneuvers, so the martial artist gets a few more features. Very powerful combinations and maneuvers requiring high level exist, and collectively some of these combos are competitive with the Weapon Master features.
I was tempted to make an MMA martial art, and a Mac-Do-Jo style, but I'll leave that fun for others :D
P.S. I've already found one typo (has = have) and fixed in it my base document, but ill let this version float until 1.5 in the hopes that other errors and necessary corrections can be made. If any of you know of a good artist, or are one, and would like to collaborate on making this document and cover with original art, please let me know!
anyone have any ideas on whether i should switch the saves from Dex & wisdom to Dex & intelligence?
shintashi wrote:
Macv - thanks for replying!
The over sized weapons can be introduced a couple of different ways - i pulled the mechanics from the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide. The Oni ogre in mythology uses an over sized weapon, but in the monster manual, uses a weapon not traditional to oni. So basically, to add that "oriental authenticity" I added a weapon specific for the Oni.
Normally, wielding oversized weapons has all sorts of complications, but some people want to do it, and i wanted to build a ladder so people could. The Anime character Sanosuke was my archetype for figuring out a way to let people "earn" the ability. In previous editions, I think they had something similar called Monkey Grip - i saw that at every convention.
You are right that there's some "interdependencies that don't seem immediately obvious", and i think that's a good thing. Like with wizards and multiclassing, there's interdependent combinations that can be really useful, but I think in some ways I took it to another level. Some abilities are "aware" of themselves in the context of others, and require a bit of study to see the possibilities. Things like throwing giants and wielding absurd weapons being just the tip of the iceberg.
The relic of honor and the inspiration mechanic were difficult to write.
Kensei are supposed to be built weirdly like Paladins, but instead of falling from grace, they can suffer great depression for losing.
What is the difference between the martial arts kensei and the weapon master kensei?
The martial arts kensei starts with a style and 2 maneuvers, and by 20th level has 8 maneuvers.
The weapon master gets two fighter-like moves, 1 weapon feat, and 3 steps of magic weapons.
When you upgrade the magic weapon effect of a weapon master, the previous effect is lost. So when you go from flaming to sharpness, you lose flaming. If you go from frost to holy, you lose the frost.
Both martial arts sensei and weapon masters are considered +3 weapons with what they do. For the martial arts, that means if you do a 1d8 kick, you do 1d8+3 damage instead with your style. For the weapon master, it means if you have a flame or frost effect, they are still considered +3 to hit and damage, even though flame tongues and frost brands are normally considered magical with no bonuses and simply add fire (2d6) or cold (1d6) damage. That basically means the Weapon Master's version of these weapons is just better. These dont stack with previous bonuses, though. A holy avenger effect or vorpal effect, are already +3 to hit and damage, so the weapon master actually gains less from upgrading to these effects. For that reason, many weapon masters just stick with whatever effect they like. Vorpal is nice, true, but perhaps a +3 version of a flame tongue is more useful?
Anyone can buy martial arts with feats, and with 5 feats you could approximate the same thing the martial arts kensei has (minus their other kensei abilities). Of course, you are losing 5 feats/10 ability score improvements to do it. The training outside of adventuring is where this is really important. A kensei or non kensei could spend 250 days earning feats, with DM permission, to obtain all sorts of maneuvers. The key advantage of kensei over non kensei is the ability to learn maneuvers with a prerequisite above level 7. Anything above level 7 can be pretty spectacular, on par with high level monk abilities or wizard spells. That's why it can compete with things like Frost Brand wielding weapon masters.
On Fighters...
fighters are pretty badass actually. Some will see the fighter as better, some will see the kensei as better. I prefer to think of the kensei as a variant of fighter - the one with no armor, with variant paladin honor restrictions.
Macv12 wrote:
RaulTesla wrote:
Here's the link to the improved save system, if you're interested:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4107836
Macv - to be honest, i am used to earlier editions where every medium to high level character had more than 11 magic items. You can infer this from the text of the paladin, because being set up with "only" 10 magic items was considered a limitation. So the idea of only 3 magic items seems crazy. Like, if I read from the old paladin list of "you may only have"
included
1 amor suit
1 shield
4 magic weapons (bows and magic arrows were considered one weapon)
and 4 other magic items
i would like to get rid of the attunement, but they should be attuned to their weapon, if that makes sense
The only mechanical effect of attunment is limiting items per character, though. AFAIK it doesn't do anything else you might expect a thing called "attunment" might do, it doesn't make it impossible to steal, disarm, or lose, it doesn't let you track it, it doesn't give bonuses to using it, etc. Since you're buying it with a class feature, it's not putting your character above others necessarily, in the way that finding a random weapon would; they have their own class features. Requiring attunment is requiring the character to pay a class feature and a potential magic item for this weapon.
If you think that on balance it's the equivalent of a magic item boosted by a class feature, paying both makes sense.
Of course it's not only 3 magic items, since many still don't require attunment. A paladin with that many magic items can be done in 5e:
Armor suit: Armor of Invulnerability (attuned)
Shield: Sentinel Shield
Magic weapons:
- Holy Avenger (attuned)
- Vicious Weapon: bow
- Arrow(s) of Slaying
- Giant Slayer: axe
- Javelin of Lightning
Other:
- Ioun Stone (attuned)
- Deck of Many Things
- Wand of Magic Detection
- Horn of Valhalla
They could have more than that even, if they avoid things needing attunment. Worth noting that +3 weapons and armor are still unattuned.
I forget what it has to do with the discussion exactly but hopefully you'll get my drift :P
The idea of attunement is the morning routine they do with their weapon or style is taking the place of attuning to something else, particularly weapons. If i could phrase it so it said they cannot attune to other weapons, that would make the most sense.
I'm guessing people imagine themselves with a great deal many magical items. Do you think there's a way to set it up so they have 3 attunement slots but none can be for weapons?
Shin you are making to big a damned deal out of attunement, it doens't represent any special connection or effort, it's just a way of limiting how many of th ereally good items you can use. Furthermore it's a sub-system that only actually exists in games with powerful magic items which is not a garantee, it's not something class should be mucking around with.
shintashi wrote:
Class really shouldn't be mucking about with DMG magic items at all. 5e doesn't have them built into the core game system the way 3 and 4 did, so it's just impossible to balance a class feature around them.
Attunement is a new feature in 5e, similar to the Concentration mechanic. Some people won't have a use for Attunement because their games don't reliably use magic items. Kensei here are not intended to really be balanced against an availability of magic items, but rather against creatures they might encounter. Like wizards, kensei are capable of reaching level:CR parity solo, but like wizards, you could choose a lot of bad options and get no where near that. It is telling that the Solar Aasimon, Avangion, and 99% of all gods in the Deities and Demigods books could be struck by a 12th level kensei. I suppose you could think of it like Auron from Final Fantasy X, if you are familiar with it.
if I do the math correctly, let's say we have a 20th level kensei, and a CR 20 encounter. like a Pit Fiend.
White rooming it, we can assume 6 hit points plus 3 or 4 per level, so around 190 hit points for the Kensei, the Pit Fiend has 300, which means the kensei would have to kill the Pit Fiend faster than the Fiend was damaging the Kensei. AC base is around 19 for the kensei and 19 for the Pit Fiend, unless we do something funny to their Armor Class. The Fiend has +14 to hit, so that's a 75% chance of hitting the kensei, the kensei has 5+6+3 or +14 as well, which is also a 75% chance of hitting. Both make four attacks. Both radiate Fear. Both strike as magical weapons, and have some unusual list of immunities or special attacks. So the real question is the HP barrier. The Fiend is clearing 78/round, and will take out the kensei in 2.43 rounds. To reach parity, the kensei needs to clear 300 in the same time, which is 123 damage per round, or about 31 per hit.
Assuming a +5 from relevant attribute, and a +3 from class, we need to account for an additional 23 average damage per attack. Can a kensei do that? I think so. Most certainly. Is it easy? Certainly not. Here's an example of how to fail trying.
You could take the "answering" weapon trait to get past the fact that you would miss by taking the -5 penalty to get a +10 damage bonus with a weapon that does 2d6 damage. That gets you "22" additional max, with an average of 17, so you are 6 shy of parity, but it's an example. If you happen to be good aligned you could take the Holy trait and get +2d10 damage, which while you might miss more, maybe 2d6+2d10+10+3+5 clears you 36 per hit, but you only hit 50% of the time.
I suppose if you really wanted to kill a pit fiend, you would be better off taking martial arts... or dumping lots of points into Constitution and taking the Tough feat for bonus HP. I guess one of the two methods above might also work if you took Lucky, and spent all your points in the battle.
Winning initiative might help too... but no, i can see from my own quick experiments that taking your kensei solo against a monster with a CR equal to your level is foolhardy more often than hard.
Attunement is not at all similar to concentration.
Classes and monsters are made with different parameters, a class needs to be balanced as and against classes, it needs to give you the ability to beat monsters but you can't take you rmath cues from a creature designed to solo parties.
Basically with rampant here.
A CR 20 monster is supposed to be a match for four level 20 PCs, without deaths. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a problem that the kensei can (but won't always) beat it, but I would agree that it doesn't really tell you anything. Basically it's a big unknown. 4 PCs can beat this without deaths; does that mean one PC should get 1/4 of the way to beating it before dying? 1/2? All the way with full resource expenditure?
I would compare to the fighter. The kensei and fighter are both pure combat classes, and closer to each other than the kensei and barbarian. The kensei shouldn't beat what the fighter can manage. In this comparison the fighter will have action surge, but the kensei has +3 to hits and damage; lets say the fighter closes that gap with a magic weapon, but we can also assume that the kensei gets an equivalent item (an Ioun stone) that enhances offense or defense. Both can have GWM, or whatever other feats. I think the fighter gets the edge from its subclasses, which can add more criticals, a handful damage dice + debilitations, etc. The kensei might have the edge in longer combats; it's hard to judge the breaking point when those extra +3's surpass the value of a single round of Action Surge, and the longevities of the fighter's subclasses really vary.
So at a glance, I wouldn't say you've clearly surpassed what a fighter can already do, and you may have fallen short (which is good; err on the side of caution).
Attunement is a new feature in 5e, similar to the Concentration mechanic. Some people won't have a use for Attunement because their games don't reliably use magic items.
i think you are on the money when you compare a fighter. I was playing around with the notion of CR parity just to see if i put some effort (similar to what a DM might expect from most people actually trying, without also trying to break the game), would the Kensei with decent gear and stats win or lose? i dunno. It came out as a probable. That made me happy. If it was really easy to solo high level monsters with the class, it would be too powerful. A high amount of effort can allow a fighter to defeat the same monsters. Does the 20th level fighter have any magic items? Depends. In some examples, I've heard no. But I'm not about to say a 20th level fighter has no magic items, it just makes things easier for the fighter. Can a fighter clear 19AC? hellz yes. Full Plate and the Armor technique +1, right? No magic there, still AC 19. With Action surge, plus the tactical d12 bonuses, and a second weapon with a dual wield feat, we might see something like 9 attacks at d8+5-17, or d8+12-24 with magic items in the first round, so maybe 150-225 damage in the first round, and maybe 50-100 in the second round. There's some Parity between the Fighter and the Kensei struggle against the Pit fiend.
The solar/gods/etc. telling comment - in 1st edition, the kensai class (At 1 million exp) and barbarian class (at 2 million exp) could strike extraplanar beings that even most magic items couldn't hit. That no longer matters in 5e. But it used to be pretty spectacular when you entered a dead zone and these guys could still attack pit fiends and get in "bar fights" with archangels. Kensei, along with Monks and Druids all had to duel for their next class rank, with a great emphasis on the kensei duels. Like showdown at the OK coral, the wind picks up, tumble weeds, cue the Spaghetti western music...
I think Rampant was confused by my confusing phraseology. Concentration and Attunement are new mechanics introduced in editions later than AD&D. The way concentration is used in 5th edition, as far as i can tell is unique to 5th, and I've never seen Attunement till 5th edition. I added Attunement mechanics to Kensei because they are 5th edition mechanics, so it seemed appropriate as an update to the new edition. Apparently some people find that unpleasant.
The question is what is the role of a kensei? What should they Feel like? How should other characters look at them? If it was mere fluff, there would be no reason to write the class. That's important to keep in mind. Mechanically, how can they be written as to not appear as clones of another class? I'm not the first person to write a 5e kensei. I've probably written the least broken one so far that is also most similar to the original readings. Culturally, though, I don't think others have really dug into what the class is supposed to feel like. They are stat blocks with no narrative. That seems like a disappointing approach.
I also wanted substance to go with the style - not like 4th edition where mechanics are woefully inadequate to support the flavor text.
I think it would be funny to go through all the different class features based on existing classes, to determine what the total level and mix would be to imitate a kensei. The rangers for example have a whirl wind attack.
well, i did some research to see wherabouts a character would need to be to emulate the various kensei traits (although some aspects would still be missing, too weak, or too powerful). Here's the list;
Kensei power approximations/similarities by class
Class Power Level
Barbarian Unarmored Defense (AC) 1st
Barbarian Frenzy (bonus attack) 3rd
Barbarian Mindless Rage (fear immune) 6th
Barbarian Feral Instinct (initiative) 7th
Barbarian Intimidating Presence (fear) 10th
Fighter Action Surge 2nd
Fighter Extra Attack 5th
Fighter Extra Attack (2) 11th
Fighter Extra Attack (3) 20th
Ranger Ambuscade (initiative) 1st
Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting 2nd
Ranger Steel Will (fear resist) 7th
Ranger Whirlwind Attack 11th
Monk Unarmored Defense (AC) 1st
Monk Ki 2nd
Monk Ki-Empowered Strikes 6th
Monk Stillness of Mind (fear resist) 7th
Monk Diamond Soul (save bonus) 14th
Mystic Celerity: Seize the Initiative 1st
Mystic Celerity: Rapid Reaction 1st
Mystic Psionic Weapon: Concentration 1st
Mystic Iron Durability: Iron Hide 3rd
Mystic Celerity: Surge of Action 5th
Mystic Psionic Weapon: Augmented 5th
Paladin Oath (Courage, Honor, Duty) 3rd (not an actual power)
Paladin Sacred Weapon (hit bonus) 3rd
Paladin Aura of Protection (save bonus) 6th
Paladin Aura of Courage (fear immune) 10th
Paladin Improved Divine Smite (damage) 11th
Rogue Slippery Mind (Wisdom Saves) 15th
Rogue Thief's Reflexes (initiative) 17th
Rogue Elusive (defenses) 18th
Sorcerer Draconic Resilience (AC) 1st
Sorcerer Draconic Presence (fear) 18th
Warlock Fey Presence (fear) 1st
Warlock Armor of Shadows (AC) 2nd
Warlock Pact of the Blade 3rd
Warlock Thirsting Blade (bonus attack) 5th
Warlock Lifedrinker 12th
Several abilities overlap, such as variations on defense or special weapons. Particularly telling is the lack of Bard, Cleric, Druid and Wizard powers, although the druids do have a vaguely similar power to attack as magic in animal form. Mushing it together, we get something roughly like this:
Level 101: Barbarian 10/Fighter 20/Ranger 11/Monk 14/Mystic 5/Paladin 11/Rogue 18/Warlock 12
Trimming Fat, Level 47: Mystic 5/Warlock 1/Ranger 11/Paladin 10/Fighter 20
fiddling about we might be able to cut it down to 26. Basically, Kensei needs its own class. It is most similar to a Fighter/Mystic that both radiates and is immune to fear, with minor save bonuses. In theory, since we don't know what level 6+ mystics look like, it may be possible to get 99% close to a kensei using mystic rules. This was more or less true in AD&D as well - a psionicist could imitate a kensai in various ways, much like the wizard could duplicate thieves using various spells like knock, spider climb, and invisibility.