Necromancy in 5e - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jaden.Shadowcraft Jul 31, 2014 9:43:28	According to a link on EN World - Wizards of the Coast released a bit of information about the various classes and their specialties. We weren't quite satisfied, and gathered some more information from an anonymous source involved in late stage playtesting of the new edition. After running the information by Wizards of the Coast to ensure that it's accurate to the new book, we've got a bit more information to share about the specializations and their abilities. These are the classes and their specializations, along with descriptions of some of the abilities that each gets. Necromancy Wizards gain power from the souls of those killed by their magic and command and create the undead. Why on Earth is this the ONLY way people see necromancers? Why do people have to be so narrow minded, that the only wizard they can imagine having necromancy merely wants to create and command an unstoppable army of the dead? What about wizards who study the connection between life and death, merely for the academic knowledge? Sorry WoTC, but if your intention is to have all necromancers be this type of wizard, one in which their entire power structure is derived from killing people to trap their souls to power their magic, you really missed the mark.
#2 Grifford Jul 31, 2014 9:59:05	In D&D, the power of "life and death" is split into two powers of "life" and "death". You're just going to have to adapt to that or MC your necromancer with a life cleric.
#3 Novacat Jul 31, 2014 10:02:13	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#4 Marandahir Jul 31, 2014 10:07:21	Not to mention, there are plenty of Necromancy school spells that AREN'T about murder and animating an undead army and such. Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Speak with Dead, Gentle Repose… all of these are NECROMANCY school spells.
#5 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 31, 2014 10:10:16	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#6 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 10:11:03	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#7 Novacat Jul 31, 2014 10:11:05	Marandahir wrote:
#8 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 10:20:41	Novacat wrote:
(Reply to #7) Marandahir	Novacat wrote:
#10 Hebitsuikaza Jul 31, 2014 10:29:45	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#11 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 10:32:57	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#12 Hebitsuikaza Jul 31, 2014 10:46:33	Mephi1234 wrote:
#13 Kalani Jul 31, 2014 11:07:37	Novacat wrote:
#14 gaminggirl Jul 31, 2014 10:56:12	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#15 thewok Jul 31, 2014 10:59:24	Marandahir wrote:
#16 eberg Jul 31, 2014 10:58:39	Did I just read a thread where Wizards of the Coast was accused of being insensitive to necromancers? That's awesome.
#17 Novacat Jul 31, 2014 11:01:31	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #11) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#19 Xeviat-DM Jul 31, 2014 11:08:29	Some people here are taking this a little too personally. D&D's definitions are their definitions. Though, I too would rather see healing spells back in necromancy and allow the wizard to use them (or at least be able to give enough temp hp to function as a leader ... I mean healer).
#20 Wuzzard Jul 31, 2014 11:13:11	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#21 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 11:13:34	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#22 Kalani Jul 31, 2014 11:24:44	In respec to the OPs statement, they are correct. From a RW perspective, most necromancers throughout history (and in archaic literature) were more interested in communicating with the dead. In today's world, we would consider them spiritual mediums, but in actuality - Spiritual Mediums are just a type of Necromancer. With that being said however, there are many literary references to "white" necromancers, those who aid the dead, use their powers to put down abominations, and prevent dark wizards from raising the dead.
#23 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 11:23:30	Ashrym wrote:
#24 Phobos Jul 31, 2014 11:38:23	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
(Reply to #23) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
(Reply to #11) Azzy1974	Mephi1234 wrote:
#27 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 12:34:00	Bards in general are dabblers. Taken as a whole. Just as nothing stops an individual red mage from learning only healing and protection spells, so it is true of individual bards. That's the thing with generalities. They talk about wide groups of things and averages, not specifics. Individuals do whatever they like. Hells, there's even Dirge Singers, which will probably end up as a bard subclass at some point. I'm not arguing that the bard can't do it. I'm just saying that its kind of immaterial since you can argue that there are bard builds to do or be anything, especially since they steal other classes' magics. Anyways, it is more than a bit of a cleric versus wizard debate, which really cuts into the heart of what defines their individual magics. "White Necromancers" rely on channeling spirits and divine beings for their power. Its how they act as mediums, its how the divination works. You are pretty much a conduit for other powers in the world. That is pretty much the definition for divine magic in D&D as well. Meanwhile, Arcane magic is more academic. Its all about learning and training impartial forces. The wizard controls them through arcane formula, the warlock is taught by a being but still uses said formula, sorcerers practice using energy that's inside to their bodies or the Weave lying around. As wizardly magic relies on seeing impartial forces and soulless arcane mathematics, they don't have a great track record of dealing directly with spirits as equals or superiors, but rather as tools around them. You can use the arcane formula to rig up a telephone call (as a fifth level spell!), but its not easy. You can try to study the boundries between life and death as a purely academic exercise, but it doesn't really take into account dealing with sentient souls nicely, and that is what "white necromancy" is really all about. Dealing with spirits. That's why wizard spells tend towards the darker aspects of necromancy - because white necromancers need to treat spirits well, and arcane magic just doesn't care one way or another. It sees dead bodies that can be animated like flesh-golems - cold, impartial. It sees how to lock your life energy into a philactory. You can manipulate life energy as a raw energy. But all that doesn't take into account anyone's actual feelings, or the fact that most of the afterlife still involves sentient souls. Very easy to abuse without the wizard's own moral compass.
#28 Mephi1234 Jul 31, 2014 12:53:28	Azzy1974 wrote:
#29 Luis_Carlos Jul 31, 2014 14:11:22	The dread necromancer is a interesting archetype for fans of gothic fantasy... but... in the game can became in something like a ghost pokemon trainer. My suggestion is to add a potential nemesis, the tainted wizard from Far Realm. If the abominations can hunt and eat most of undead there would be a balance of power. Undead need a natural predator, an archenemy, for example the werewolves fro the vampires, or the alienist for the necromancers. About the idea of a good "necromancer" (I like that name, necroscope) I suggest the background of the manga/anime "Bleach". * The deathless monster subtype should come back. (deathless is undead healed by positive energy and hurt by negative energy). * Another option could be some sentient creatures when die don´t become undeads or petiotioners but fays... spirits linked to primal forces. Let´s imagine the surprise for players when they discover the blood-sucker witch isn´t a vampire but a fay hag. Incorporeal fays and abominations can be a good monster for Ravenloft players who use too especialised item to hunt undeads.
(Reply to #27) Ashrym	Mephi1234 wrote:
#31 Gnarl Jul 31, 2014 16:11:45	@OP: For most people, necromancer means evil depraved wizard that wants an army of undead. Do you really think that it would have been a good idea for the necromancer subclass to be something similar to the anatomist kit of 2e? Seriously, this is useless whinning. If the anatomist you like so much is popular enough, it will be available as a different subclass that isn't called necromancer. And if not, you can always make your own subclass...
#32 FallingIcicle Jul 31, 2014 16:22:33	Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:
#33 quindia Jul 31, 2014 17:12:05	eberg wrote:
#34 DLfan Aug 01, 2014 3:13:14	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#35 TiaNadiezja Aug 01, 2014 3:30:51	The various subclasses speak to specific character archetypes - virtually all of them archetypes present in earlier versions of the game. The Cleric is a lovely example of that - we have the AD&D "heals and maces" cleric in the Life cleric, the Third Edition "Clericzilla" buff-and-stab cleric in the War cleric, and the Fourth Edition "lasers from Heaven" cleric in the Light cleric. The iconic D&D Necromancer calls up armies of the undead and unleashes them on her foes. I wasn't expecting anything else.
#36 Luis_Carlos Aug 01, 2014 4:52:09	One of the many archetypes I have suggested in the past has been the Haruspex from the ancient History. I like the idea of a necromancer who usen´t negativa energy but he is more a "crazy surgeon" creating abominations. The point weak of necromancer is that she is too specialised in negative energy. * I like the idea of a "evil" deathless to surprise the PCs, for example an anti-villain reverant who wants revenge. If it isn´t hurt by positive energy, the PCs should look for another way to beat it. * I say it again; I love the idea of undead like potential preys of abominations monsters. I don´t want to see too many miniatures PCs who are necromancer-warlords with a army of undead minions. Once time is right, too many it is annoying and boring. We need variety of enemies, sometimes abominations from far realms or dark fays. * In some of my settins the goblins and orcs are humanoids who survived a zombie apocalypse, because there were infected but not become undeads, only wilder. * What if the shaman is a "necromancer" who summon fay spirits instead undeads?
#37 Bitharne Aug 01, 2014 12:51:45	One character concept I am going to run with in 5e, after PHB drops so I can iron it out, is a "D2 Necro". Like others in this thread, i've never quite been comfortable with the idea of "people are considered evil if they do X"...kinda similarly to my outlook on Vampire's in assorted fiction and whatnot. In essense, you are not what you use. Spells do not make your "evil", your nature does not make you "evil", what you do is what is important. As such, I will have a True Neutral Wizard who is a Necromancer Scholar who fully appriciates the balance of life and death (Following the "newly" minted Death god of Kelemvor). He will favor necromancy spells, yet I will not follow any of the silly tropes that using such magic makes you a bad person. Of course my character will be aware of peoples' aversion to Necromantic magic and avoid exposing them to needless discomfort, but he will not shy away from raising an army of undead to defeat what he needs to defeat.
(Reply to #15) Marandahir	thewok wrote:
(Reply to #38) AaronOfBarbaria	Marandahir wrote:
#40 Incendavis Aug 01, 2014 14:01:14	Bitharne wrote:
#41 Shasarak Aug 01, 2014 14:19:43	gaminggirl wrote:
(Reply to #39) Marandahir	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Jaden.Shadowcraft

Jul 31, 2014 9:43:28

According to a link on EN World - Wizards of the Coast released a bit of information about the various classes and their specialties. We weren't quite satisfied, and gathered some more information from an anonymous source involved in late stage playtesting of the new edition. After running the information by Wizards of the Coast to ensure that it's accurate to the new book, we've got a bit more information to share about the specializations and their abilities. These are the classes and their specializations, along with descriptions of some of the abilities that each gets.

Necromancy Wizards gain power from the souls of those killed by their magic and command and create the undead.

Why on Earth is this the ONLY way people see necromancers? Why do people have to be so narrow minded, that the only wizard they can imagine having necromancy merely wants to create and command an unstoppable army of the dead? What about wizards who study the connection between life and death, merely for the academic knowledge?

Sorry WoTC, but if your intention is to have all necromancers be this type of wizard, one in which their entire power structure is derived from killing people to trap their souls to power their magic, you really missed the mark.

Grifford

Jul 31, 2014 9:59:05

In D&D, the power of "life and death" is split into two powers of "life" and "death". You're just going to have to adapt to that or MC your necromancer with a life cleric.

Novacat

Jul 31, 2014 10:02:13

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

Marandahir

Jul 31, 2014 10:07:21

Not to mention, there are plenty of Necromancy school spells that AREN'T about murder and animating an undead army and such. Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Speak with Dead, Gentle Repose… all of these are NECROMANCY school spells.

The_White_Sorcerer

Jul 31, 2014 10:10:16

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 10:11:03

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

Novacat

Jul 31, 2014 10:11:05

Marandahir wrote:

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 10:20:41

Novacat wrote:

(Reply to #7)

Marandahir

Novacat wrote:

#10

Hebitsuikaza

Jul 31, 2014 10:29:45

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

#11

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 10:32:57

Hebitsuikaza wrote:

#12

Hebitsuikaza

Jul 31, 2014 10:46:33

Mephi1234 wrote:

#13

Kalani

Jul 31, 2014 11:07:37

Novacat wrote:

#14

gaminggirl

Jul 31, 2014 10:56:12

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

#15

thewok

Jul 31, 2014 10:59:24

Marandahir wrote:

#16

eberg

Jul 31, 2014 10:58:39

Did I just read a thread where Wizards of the Coast was accused of being insensitive to necromancers?

That's awesome.

#17

Novacat

Jul 31, 2014 11:01:31

Kalani wrote:

(Reply to #11)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#19

Xeviat-DM

Jul 31, 2014 11:08:29

Some people here are taking this a little too personally. D&D's definitions are their definitions. Though, I too would rather see healing spells back in necromancy and allow the wizard to use them (or at least be able to give enough temp hp to function as a leader ... I mean healer).

#20

Wuzzard

Jul 31, 2014 11:13:11

Hebitsuikaza wrote:

#21

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 11:13:34

Hebitsuikaza wrote:

#22

Kalani

Jul 31, 2014 11:24:44

In respec to the OPs statement, they are correct. From a RW perspective, most necromancers throughout history (and in archaic literature) were more interested in communicating with the dead. In today's world, we would consider them spiritual mediums, but in actuality - Spiritual Mediums are just a type of Necromancer. With that being said however, there are many literary references to "white" necromancers, those who aid the dead, use their powers to put down abominations, and prevent dark wizards from raising the dead.

#23

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 11:23:30

Ashrym wrote:

#24

Phobos

Jul 31, 2014 11:38:23

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

(Reply to #23)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

(Reply to #11)

Azzy1974

Mephi1234 wrote:

#27

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 12:34:00

Bards in general are dabblers. Taken as a whole. Just as nothing stops an individual red mage from learning only healing and protection spells, so it is true of individual bards. That's the thing with generalities. They talk about wide groups of things and averages, not specifics. Individuals do whatever they like. Hells, there's even Dirge Singers, which will probably end up as a bard subclass at some point. I'm not arguing that the bard can't do it. I'm just saying that its kind of immaterial since you can argue that there are bard builds to do or be anything, especially since they steal other classes' magics.

Anyways, it is more than a bit of a cleric versus wizard debate, which really cuts into the heart of what defines their individual magics. "White Necromancers" rely on channeling spirits and divine beings for their power. Its how they act as mediums, its how the divination works. You are pretty much a conduit for other powers in the world. That is pretty much the definition for divine magic in D&D as well. Meanwhile, Arcane magic is more academic. Its all about learning and training impartial forces. The wizard controls them through arcane formula, the warlock is taught by a being but still uses said formula, sorcerers practice using energy that's inside to their bodies or the Weave lying around.

As wizardly magic relies on seeing impartial forces and soulless arcane mathematics, they don't have a great track record of dealing directly with spirits as equals or superiors, but rather as tools around them. You can use the arcane formula to rig up a telephone call (as a fifth level spell!), but its not easy. You can try to study the boundries between life and death as a purely academic exercise, but it doesn't really take into account dealing with sentient souls nicely, and that is what "white necromancy" is really all about. Dealing with spirits.

That's why wizard spells tend towards the darker aspects of necromancy - because white necromancers need to treat spirits well, and arcane magic just doesn't care one way or another. It sees dead bodies that can be animated like flesh-golems - cold, impartial. It sees how to lock your life energy into a philactory. You can manipulate life energy as a raw energy. But all that doesn't take into account anyone's actual feelings, or the fact that most of the afterlife still involves sentient souls. Very easy to abuse without the wizard's own moral compass.

#28

Mephi1234

Jul 31, 2014 12:53:28

Azzy1974 wrote:

#29

Luis_Carlos

Jul 31, 2014 14:11:22

The dread necromancer is a interesting archetype for fans of gothic fantasy... but... in the game can became in something like a ghost pokemon trainer.

My suggestion is to add a potential nemesis, the tainted wizard from Far Realm. If the abominations can hunt and eat most of undead there would be a balance of power. Undead need a natural predator, an archenemy, for example the werewolves fro the vampires, or the alienist for the necromancers.

About the idea of a good "necromancer" (I like that name, necroscope) I suggest the background of the manga/anime "Bleach".

* The deathless monster subtype should come back. (deathless is undead healed by positive energy and hurt by negative energy).

* Another option could be some sentient creatures when die don´t become undeads or petiotioners but fays... spirits linked to primal forces. Let´s imagine the surprise for players when they discover the blood-sucker witch isn´t a vampire but a fay hag. Incorporeal fays and abominations can be a good monster for Ravenloft players who use too especialised item to hunt undeads.

(Reply to #27)

Ashrym

Mephi1234 wrote:

#31

Gnarl

Jul 31, 2014 16:11:45

@OP: For most people, necromancer means evil depraved wizard that wants an army of undead. Do you really think that it would have been a good idea for the necromancer subclass to be something similar to the anatomist kit of 2e? Seriously, this is useless whinning. If the anatomist you like so much is popular enough, it will be available as a different subclass that isn't called necromancer. And if not, you can always make your own subclass...

#32

FallingIcicle

Jul 31, 2014 16:22:33

Jaden.Shadowcraft wrote:

#33

quindia

Jul 31, 2014 17:12:05

eberg wrote:

#34

DLfan

Aug 01, 2014 3:13:14

Hebitsuikaza wrote:

#35

TiaNadiezja

Aug 01, 2014 3:30:51

The various subclasses speak to specific character archetypes - virtually all of them archetypes present in earlier versions of the game. The Cleric is a lovely example of that - we have the AD&D "heals and maces" cleric in the Life cleric, the Third Edition "Clericzilla" buff-and-stab cleric in the War cleric, and the Fourth Edition "lasers from Heaven" cleric in the Light cleric.

The iconic D&D Necromancer calls up armies of the undead and unleashes them on her foes. I wasn't expecting anything else.

#36

Luis_Carlos

Aug 01, 2014 4:52:09

One of the many archetypes I have suggested in the past has been the Haruspex from the ancient History. I like the idea of a necromancer who usen´t negativa energy but he is more a "crazy surgeon" creating abominations.

The point weak of necromancer is that she is too specialised in negative energy.

* I like the idea of a "evil" deathless to surprise the PCs, for example an anti-villain reverant who wants revenge. If it isn´t hurt by positive energy, the PCs should look for another way to beat it.

* I say it again; I love the idea of undead like potential preys of abominations monsters. I don´t want to see too many miniatures PCs who are necromancer-warlords with a army of undead minions. Once time is right, too many it is annoying and boring. We need variety of enemies, sometimes abominations from far realms or dark fays.

* In some of my settins the goblins and orcs are humanoids who survived a zombie apocalypse, because there were infected but not become undeads, only wilder.

* What if the shaman is a "necromancer" who summon fay spirits instead undeads?

#37

Bitharne

Aug 01, 2014 12:51:45

One character concept I am going to run with in 5e, after PHB drops so I can iron it out, is a "D2 Necro".

Like others in this thread, i've never quite been comfortable with the idea of "people are considered evil if they do X"...kinda similarly to my outlook on Vampire's in assorted fiction and whatnot.

In essense, you are not what you use. Spells do not make your "evil", your nature does not make you "evil", what you do is what is important. As such, I will have a True Neutral Wizard who is a Necromancer Scholar who fully appriciates the balance of life and death (Following the "newly" minted Death god of Kelemvor). He will favor necromancy spells, yet I will not follow any of the silly tropes that using such magic makes you a bad person.

Of course my character will be aware of peoples' aversion to Necromantic magic and avoid exposing them to needless discomfort, but he will not shy away from raising an army of undead to defeat what he needs to defeat.

(Reply to #15)

Marandahir

thewok wrote:

(Reply to #38)

AaronOfBarbaria

Marandahir wrote:

#40

Incendavis

Aug 01, 2014 14:01:14

Bitharne wrote:

#41

Shasarak

Aug 01, 2014 14:19:43

gaminggirl wrote:

(Reply to #39)

Marandahir

AaronOfBarbaria wrote: